Bullet failure

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:16 pm

Today I had a rare opportunity to shoot asick racoon at the apt complex where I work. I shot him with a .357 cal Rossi M92, I was using a handloaded 125 gr speer hollowpoint over 17 gr of 2400. As has happened in the past, the bullet failed to expand. Does anyone have a similar story with these bullets?

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:25 pm

Did it kill him or did it just bounce off?

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:28 pm

He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past!

This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:34 pm

The coon is dead, unless you had to whack him in the head with a club to finish him off , I'm not quite seeing the bullet failure?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:36 pm

eric,

I used that load from my Marlin 1894 to explode various things. However I used the scalloped Remington SJHP. When it hit anything with lots of water in it the results was just explosive. I never did try any other brands.
Glad the coon was dispatched, maybe trying a different bullet would give you the results you're looking for.

Joe

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:38 pm

If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:45 pm

Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:48 pm

J Miller wrote:eric,

I used that load from my Marlin 1894 to explode various things. However I used the scalloped Remington SJHP. When it hit anything with lots of water in it the results was just explosive. I never did try any other brands.
Glad the coon was dispatched, maybe trying a different bullet would give you the results you're looking for.

Joe

I have user Hornady slugs with similar results, that is why I was curious

76/444 · Post by **76/444** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:48 pm

JimT wrote:Did it kill him or did it just bounce off?

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:53 pm

eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.

That's funny!

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:19 pm

I thought it was pretty good and so did the rest of the staff.

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:24 pm

JimT wrote:If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.

I agree with you Jim, but I use hollow points on varments purely for visual effects

Also, I dont get the thrashing and kicking that I get with soft points. I do admit to having A bit of A heart on me.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:43 pm

eric65 wrote:
JimT wrote:If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.
I agree with you Jim, but I use hollow points on varments purely for visual effects Also, I dont get the thrashing and kicking that I get with soft points. I do admit to having A bit of A heart on me.

I have no problem with having a heart Eric. The problem is that hollow points do not always act the same way in living tissue. Also, some critters just take "more killing" than others. I have seen explosive expansion and yet the animal did not drop immediately. You may have a bullet that works like a lightning bolt .. and then there is that one occasion.

There are too many variables in living breathing creatures for there to be a perfect bullet that works the same all the time.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:51 pm

eric65 wrote:He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past! This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets

So what do you do? Just go around killing animals hoping for spectacular results?

The coon's dead. End of story.

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:04 pm

Modoc ED wrote:
eric65 wrote:He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past! This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets
So what do you do? Just go around killing animals hoping for spectacular results?

The coon's dead. End of story.

That's not even worthy of A reply if you want to pick a fight, have at it.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:32 pm

eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:35 pm

On Monday we were talking about deer and how fast they succumb to various loads. The conversation was initiated by a customer who wanted to know the "killing power" of the 130 gr. vs 150 gr. .270 Winchester loads... Anyway, several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:48 pm

Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:52 pm

Hobie wrote:On Monday we were talking about deer and how fast they succumb to various loads. The conversation was initiated by a customer who wanted to know the "killing power" of the 130 gr. vs 150 gr. .270 Winchester loads... Anyway, several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.

When the .270 Winchester is mentioned the first thing that comes
to my mind is the king of the .270 Win. Mr. Jack O'Conner.

http://www.jack-oconnor.org/about/aboutJack.htm

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/ ... nors+Rifle

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:13 pm

If you were expecting explosive results at "walk up and poke it" range then you will be sadly dissapointed.

There isn't enough critter there to reliably expand that bullet or most bullets beyond a .22 LR.
As been said. Not enough mass to expand a large cal. bullet at velocity.

jb

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:22 pm

Hobie wrote: , several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.

There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.. "guts hanging out" is not a well-placed shot.

Learn to shoot and then worry about the bullet weight. I guarantee not one animal hit properly can tell the difference, and you will not get any complaints.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:24 pm

I hear where you are coming from Eric. The bullet "failed" to expand! Everyone happy now?

Seems like a weird issue to me. First, coon are pretty dense critters for their size. Second, you were able to recover the bullet which means you didn't get a pass thru? Odd right there, You'd think that a .357 bullet from a rifle would pass right on thru a coon. Even more so on a bullet that didn't expand.

LK

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:29 pm

The bullet didn't fail because the coon is dead but I understand what you mean.
And there is a safety aspect to a bullet that expands well, in that it won't over penetrate and ricochet as badly.
As someone already said, maybe coons aren't big enough for the 125 to expand in. Have you tried a 110 gr gold dot or one of the other light bullets designed for short barrel revolvers? In one of the levergun article, and I don't remember which one, the writer says that the 110gr has a spectacular explosive effect on varmints out to 100yds when driven hard.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:32 pm

I see your point and so do the others - they just decided to go the other way on this.

I see some of Jack's books are pricey now. I have The Last Book and it is an interesting read.

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:35 pm

Hobbie, stool setters are makin the rounds now that season is in, no..

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:45 pm

Hollowpoint noses will fold on a glancing bone shot, even a small bone. Once the nose folds, expansion ends.

Think about that with your self defense loads. It's why I use Winchester white box flat points in my 380.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:12 pm

eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.

bogie

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:30 pm

It sounds pretty strange to me. I think a raccoon has enough mass to provide the resistance needed to expand that bullet. If not, then it certainly doesn't have enough mass to prevent a pass through. And if it doesn't expand and/or pass through a coon, then I certainly wouldn't trust it to stop a crack addict.

bogie

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:43 pm

I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.

That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.

If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.

jb

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:46 pm

Wouldn't aw 22rf been enough??

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:57 pm

2ndovc wrote:I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.

That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.

If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.

jb

But expansion and penetration tend to oppose one another. A bullet either expands or it penetrates or a reasonable combination of both. For a bullet to neither expand nor penetrate (a reasonable distance), that just defies physics. It must have keyholed.

bogie

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:05 pm

Bogie, I believe Eric was basing the fact that it didn't expand on the exit wound, or the bullet was recovered from the ground or something else.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:15 pm

Bogie35 wrote:
2ndovc wrote:I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.

That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.

If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.

jb
But expansion and penetration tend to oppose one another. A bullet either expands or it penetrates or a reasonable combination of both. For a bullet to neither expand nor penetrate (a reasonable distance), that just defies physics. It must have keyholed.

bogie

I don't remember reading that the bullet failed to penetrate the animal.

That would constitute more than a bullet failure. Would it not?

The point is: The bullet passed through the animal before it encountered enough resistance to make the bullet
expand.

jb

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:37 pm

I now realise that I did not provide enough info. Bullet passed completely through, exit hole too small for expansion to have ocured. I have used this same load for years with EXPLOSIVE results, as for the particular bullet, these were some that I have never tried before, I have only used these twice on varments with the same basic result both times. This shot was taken at about 25 feet due to the critter being obviously sick, 357 was used because that was what I carry with me in my vehicle.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 9:57 pm

RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.

That's exactly my thoughts on it.

The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.

Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect

- that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:01 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
That's exactly my thoughts on it.

The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.

Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect - that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...

You kinda worry me sometimes doc

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:38 pm

RKrodle wrote:Bogie, I believe Eric was basing the fact that it didn't expand on the exit wound, or the bullet was recovered from the ground or something else.

You're right.

I assumed, and that's never good!

bogie

colo native · Post by **colo native** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:06 am

AJMD429 wrote:
RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
That's exactly my thoughts on it.

The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.

Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect - that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...

250000, sounds like a buss saw.. one turn in aw human body, maybe...

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:01 am

jnyork wrote:
Hobie wrote: , several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.
There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.. "guts hanging out" is not a well-placed shot. Learn to shoot and then worry about the bullet weight. I guarantee not one animal hit properly can tell the difference, and you will not get any complaints.

I am reporting what was said and can't speak to number of shots, cartridges used, etc.

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:31 pm

"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).

It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.

It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.

eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:48 pm

Idiot wrote:"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).

It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.

It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.

eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:01 pm

RKrodle & 2ndovc have pretty much nailed it down. Not enough mass/density in a 'coon to really get that bullet to expand.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:07 pm

Now I'm no expert with pistol cartridges and their performance but I do remember reading,hearing that due to their relative slower speeds pistol type hollow points can get them selves plugged and turn them selves into solid slugs. I can accept this readily and have seen it in 22 ammo at times.

The only experiance I ever saw shooting and did with a Win 94 357 shooting fox and rabbits was that it was an accurate "slugger" and as I was familiar with zapping critters with 22 center fire regular in no way would I term the 357 as an explosive round. It simply needed to be in the zone and they (the critters) won't go far,,,,fine

Nath.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:11 pm

colo native wrote:Hobbie, stool setters are makin the rounds now that season is in, no..

They sure are!

I tried to get out today but am now home, thoroughly soaked. I'm to the point where it is supposed to be fun and I've got nothing to prove.

eric65 · Post by **eric65** » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:24 pm

JimT wrote:
Idiot wrote:"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).

It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.

It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.

eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.

Ok, i'm going to take my ball and go home now.