Bullet failure
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- Levergunner 2.0
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Bullet failure
Today I had a rare opportunity to shoot asick racoon at the apt complex where I work. I shot him with a .357 cal Rossi M92, I was using a handloaded 125 gr speer hollowpoint over 17 gr of 2400. As has happened in the past, the bullet failed to expand. Does anyone have a similar story with these bullets?
Re: Bullet failure
Did it kill him or did it just bounce off?
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Re: Bullet failure
He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past! This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets
Re: Bullet failure
The coon is dead, unless you had to whack him in the head with a club to finish him off , I'm not quite seeing the bullet failure?
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Re: Bullet failure
eric,
I used that load from my Marlin 1894 to explode various things. However I used the scalloped Remington SJHP. When it hit anything with lots of water in it the results was just explosive. I never did try any other brands.
Glad the coon was dispatched, maybe trying a different bullet would give you the results you're looking for.
Joe
I used that load from my Marlin 1894 to explode various things. However I used the scalloped Remington SJHP. When it hit anything with lots of water in it the results was just explosive. I never did try any other brands.
Glad the coon was dispatched, maybe trying a different bullet would give you the results you're looking for.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Bullet failure
If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.
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Re: Bullet failure
Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.
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Re: Bullet failure
I have user Hornady slugs with similar results, that is why I was curiousJ Miller wrote:eric,
I used that load from my Marlin 1894 to explode various things. However I used the scalloped Remington SJHP. When it hit anything with lots of water in it the results was just explosive. I never did try any other brands.
Glad the coon was dispatched, maybe trying a different bullet would give you the results you're looking for.
Joe
Re: Bullet failure
JimT wrote:Did it kill him or did it just bounce off?
Re: Bullet failure
That's funny!eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.
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Re: Bullet failure
I thought it was pretty good and so did the rest of the staff.
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Re: Bullet failure
I agree with you Jim, but I use hollow points on varments purely for visual effects Also, I dont get the thrashing and kicking that I get with soft points. I do admit to having A bit of A heart on me.JimT wrote:If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.
Re: Bullet failure
I have no problem with having a heart Eric. The problem is that hollow points do not always act the same way in living tissue. Also, some critters just take "more killing" than others. I have seen explosive expansion and yet the animal did not drop immediately. You may have a bullet that works like a lightning bolt .. and then there is that one occasion.eric65 wrote:I agree with you Jim, but I use hollow points on varments purely for visual effects Also, I dont get the thrashing and kicking that I get with soft points. I do admit to having A bit of A heart on me.JimT wrote:If it killed the intended, then I wouldn't call it a 'failure'. Thousands of game animals are taken with non-expanding bullets. No matter whether the bullet expands or not, proper shot placement works.
There are too many variables in living breathing creatures for there to be a perfect bullet that works the same all the time.
- Modoc ED
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Re: Bullet failure
So what do you do? Just go around killing animals hoping for spectacular results?eric65 wrote:He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past! This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets
The coon's dead. End of story.
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Re: Bullet failure
That's not even worthy of A reply if you want to pick a fight, have at it.Modoc ED wrote:So what do you do? Just go around killing animals hoping for spectacular results?eric65 wrote:He died, but the result was not as spectaculer as I have experienced in the past! This is the second failure I have seen with these bullets
The coon's dead. End of story.
Re: Bullet failure
eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Bullet failure
On Monday we were talking about deer and how fast they succumb to various loads. The conversation was initiated by a customer who wanted to know the "killing power" of the 130 gr. vs 150 gr. .270 Winchester loads... Anyway, several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Bullet failure
Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
Ricky
DWWC
DWWC
Re: Bullet failure
When the .270 Winchester is mentioned the first thing that comesHobie wrote:On Monday we were talking about deer and how fast they succumb to various loads. The conversation was initiated by a customer who wanted to know the "killing power" of the 130 gr. vs 150 gr. .270 Winchester loads... Anyway, several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.
to my mind is the king of the .270 Win. Mr. Jack O'Conner.
http://www.jack-oconnor.org/about/aboutJack.htm
http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/ ... nors+Rifle
- 2ndovc
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Re: Bullet failure
If you were expecting explosive results at "walk up and poke it" range then you will be sadly dissapointed.
There isn't enough critter there to reliably expand that bullet or most bullets beyond a .22 LR.
As been said. Not enough mass to expand a large cal. bullet at velocity.
jb
There isn't enough critter there to reliably expand that bullet or most bullets beyond a .22 LR.
As been said. Not enough mass to expand a large cal. bullet at velocity.
jb
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Re: Bullet failure
There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.. "guts hanging out" is not a well-placed shot. Learn to shoot and then worry about the bullet weight. I guarantee not one animal hit properly can tell the difference, and you will not get any complaints.Hobie wrote: , several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.
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Re: Bullet failure
I hear where you are coming from Eric. The bullet "failed" to expand! Everyone happy now?
Seems like a weird issue to me. First, coon are pretty dense critters for their size. Second, you were able to recover the bullet which means you didn't get a pass thru? Odd right there, You'd think that a .357 bullet from a rifle would pass right on thru a coon. Even more so on a bullet that didn't expand.
LK
Seems like a weird issue to me. First, coon are pretty dense critters for their size. Second, you were able to recover the bullet which means you didn't get a pass thru? Odd right there, You'd think that a .357 bullet from a rifle would pass right on thru a coon. Even more so on a bullet that didn't expand.
LK
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Re: Bullet failure
The bullet didn't fail because the coon is dead but I understand what you mean.
And there is a safety aspect to a bullet that expands well, in that it won't over penetrate and ricochet as badly.
As someone already said, maybe coons aren't big enough for the 125 to expand in. Have you tried a 110 gr gold dot or one of the other light bullets designed for short barrel revolvers? In one of the levergun article, and I don't remember which one, the writer says that the 110gr has a spectacular explosive effect on varmints out to 100yds when driven hard.
And there is a safety aspect to a bullet that expands well, in that it won't over penetrate and ricochet as badly.
As someone already said, maybe coons aren't big enough for the 125 to expand in. Have you tried a 110 gr gold dot or one of the other light bullets designed for short barrel revolvers? In one of the levergun article, and I don't remember which one, the writer says that the 110gr has a spectacular explosive effect on varmints out to 100yds when driven hard.
Bob
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Re: Bullet failure
I see your point and so do the others - they just decided to go the other way on this.
I see some of Jack's books are pricey now. I have The Last Book and it is an interesting read.
I see some of Jack's books are pricey now. I have The Last Book and it is an interesting read.
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Re: Bullet failure
Hobbie, stool setters are makin the rounds now that season is in, no..
Re: Bullet failure
Hollowpoint noses will fold on a glancing bone shot, even a small bone. Once the nose folds, expansion ends.
Think about that with your self defense loads. It's why I use Winchester white box flat points in my 380.
Think about that with your self defense loads. It's why I use Winchester white box flat points in my 380.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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Re: Bullet failure
eric65 wrote:Funny side note; one of the cleaning ladies told me later that she pushed the disable button on her car alarm at the same moment I pulled the trigger! I would have loved to have seen the look on her face.
bogie
Sadly, "Political Correctness" is the most powerful religion in America, and it has ruined our society.
Re: Bullet failure
It sounds pretty strange to me. I think a raccoon has enough mass to provide the resistance needed to expand that bullet. If not, then it certainly doesn't have enough mass to prevent a pass through. And if it doesn't expand and/or pass through a coon, then I certainly wouldn't trust it to stop a crack addict.
bogie
bogie
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- 2ndovc
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Re: Bullet failure
I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.
That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.
If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.
jb
That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.
If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
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Re: Bullet failure
Wouldn't aw 22rf been enough??
Re: Bullet failure
But expansion and penetration tend to oppose one another. A bullet either expands or it penetrates or a reasonable combination of both. For a bullet to neither expand nor penetrate (a reasonable distance), that just defies physics. It must have keyholed.2ndovc wrote:I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.
That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.
If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.
jb
bogie
Sadly, "Political Correctness" is the most powerful religion in America, and it has ruined our society.
Re: Bullet failure
Bogie, I believe Eric was basing the fact that it didn't expand on the exit wound, or the bullet was recovered from the ground or something else.
Ricky
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Re: Bullet failure
Bogie35 wrote:But expansion and penetration tend to oppose one another. A bullet either expands or it penetrates or a reasonable combination of both. For a bullet to neither expand nor penetrate (a reasonable distance), that just defies physics. It must have keyholed.2ndovc wrote:I would think most crack heads are a little thicker and more dense than your average raccoon.
That bullet wasn't designed as a small game/ varmint round.
If you want spectacular explosive results try a 50 or 55 gr jsp or spitzer
at 3000 fps.
jb
bogie
I don't remember reading that the bullet failed to penetrate the animal.
That would constitute more than a bullet failure. Would it not?
The point is: The bullet passed through the animal before it encountered enough resistance to make the bullet
expand.
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
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Re: Bullet failure
I now realise that I did not provide enough info. Bullet passed completely through, exit hole too small for expansion to have ocured. I have used this same load for years with EXPLOSIVE results, as for the particular bullet, these were some that I have never tried before, I have only used these twice on varments with the same basic result both times. This shot was taken at about 25 feet due to the critter being obviously sick, 357 was used because that was what I carry with me in my vehicle.
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Re: Bullet failure
That's exactly my thoughts on it.RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.
Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect - that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...
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"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
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Re: Bullet failure
You kinda worry me sometimes docAJMD429 wrote:That's exactly my thoughts on it.RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.
Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect - that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...
Re: Bullet failure
You're right.RKrodle wrote:Bogie, I believe Eric was basing the fact that it didn't expand on the exit wound, or the bullet was recovered from the ground or something else.
I assumed, and that's never good!
bogie
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Re: Bullet failure
250000, sounds like a buss saw.. one turn in aw human body, maybe...AJMD429 wrote:That's exactly my thoughts on it.RKrodle wrote:Eric, I think I understand were your coming from. But I don't know that a coon will offer enough mass, or what ever it may be called, to cause reliable expansion with any bullet from a 357 Mag. Now, a 22-250 at close range is a different story. I once shot a crow at about 40 yards with my 22-250 and it rained crow for five minutes. Maybe some 110gr bullets may work better.
The 110 & 125 gr JHP's in .357 are pretty much designed for one-shot stopping of humans, which are a much thicker target than a raccoon.
Perhaps putting one out at 4,000 fps or so from a .358 BOSS Magnum (225 gr Nosler's do 3700 fps) would be closer to the .22-250 in effect - that is, if the 250,000 RPM's didn't explode it upon muzzle exit...
Re: Bullet failure
I am reporting what was said and can't speak to number of shots, cartridges used, etc.jnyork wrote:There is something to be said for the well-placed shot.. "guts hanging out" is not a well-placed shot. Learn to shoot and then worry about the bullet weight. I guarantee not one animal hit properly can tell the difference, and you will not get any complaints.Hobie wrote: , several of the "stool sitters" noted that they had seen deer with severe wounds to include all their guts hanging out go for many yards.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Bullet failure
"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).
It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.
It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.
eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.
It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.
It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.
eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.
Re: Bullet failure
Idiot wrote:"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).
It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.
It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.
eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.
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Re: Bullet failure
RKrodle & 2ndovc have pretty much nailed it down. Not enough mass/density in a 'coon to really get that bullet to expand.
Regards
Buck
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Re: Bullet failure
Now I'm no expert with pistol cartridges and their performance but I do remember reading,hearing that due to their relative slower speeds pistol type hollow points can get them selves plugged and turn them selves into solid slugs. I can accept this readily and have seen it in 22 ammo at times.
The only experiance I ever saw shooting and did with a Win 94 357 shooting fox and rabbits was that it was an accurate "slugger" and as I was familiar with zapping critters with 22 center fire regular in no way would I term the 357 as an explosive round. It simply needed to be in the zone and they (the critters) won't go far,,,,fine
Nath.
The only experiance I ever saw shooting and did with a Win 94 357 shooting fox and rabbits was that it was an accurate "slugger" and as I was familiar with zapping critters with 22 center fire regular in no way would I term the 357 as an explosive round. It simply needed to be in the zone and they (the critters) won't go far,,,,fine
Nath.
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Re: Bullet failure
They sure are!colo native wrote:Hobbie, stool setters are makin the rounds now that season is in, no..
I tried to get out today but am now home, thoroughly soaked. I'm to the point where it is supposed to be fun and I've got nothing to prove.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
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Re: Bullet failure
Ok, i'm going to take my ball and go home now.JimT wrote:Idiot wrote:"It depends on what the definition of is is" (Clinton).
It ain't really "failure" because it killed the animal.
It is really "failure" because it failed to open within the advertised velocity range.
eric65, if you want to make a point or observation among all the lawyers on this site you better be detailed, specific, and ready to back it up with empirical data. If you don't you will be swatted down like a dirty pesky fly ruining their nap.