POLITICS - Battle Hymm in school

[marlin shooter]

Patriotism in the public schools, with God mixed in? I didn't think this was allowed anymore. I love it!
http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/Bat ... /index.htm
Karl

[brucew44guns]

I guess it will take past the weekend for the ACLU or some outfit like that to get this into court and get it stopped. We wouldn't want this school to set some kind of example that stuff like this could be tolerated and gotten away with. But it sure is beautiful to these old ears, thank you for posting!!

[Mokwaw]

..................AWESOME..................

[Rusty]

That sounds like the same arrangement we used in our choir when I was in high school about 38 years ago. They did a good job.

[Tom Richardson]

An awesome song from the War of Northern Aggression. Written and sung to build the moral of the aggressors. "Let us die to make men free".

If Dixie was performed the PC bunch would jump all over it. "In Dixie land I will make my stand to live and die in Dixie. Patriotic to the end.
This was a song about aggressors in our back yards.

It is all perspective.

[Hobie]

I was brought up singing (in as much as I can sing ) both the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Dixie. Both songs mean a lot to me. Tom's right, it is all in the perspective. I think we should sing these now with an eye to the current war...

[Tom Richardson]

Thank you Hobie.

[Hobie]

I don't know why, but it gets a mite dusty when I hear either song.

[El Mac]

I was brought up singing (in as much as I can sing ) both the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Dixie. Both songs mean a lot to me. Tom's right, it is all in the perspective. I think we should sing these now with an eye to the current war...

We sang both of these songs in the chow hall Duncan) at Texas A&M at least once a week - back to back...back in my time.

[Charles]

darn Yankee Abolitionist song that should be banned from the ears of mankind!

[Tom Richardson]

And that comes from the Head Duck of the Doxology Mill in far south Texas.

[maddog]

Ya know, I was born in 1951 not 1851, but I never had a dog in the fight over the civil war. If I would have been born back then...maybe. But I gotta say that I listened to the above, and it brought a tear to my eye. Wish one of you boys would post the same about Dixie. With all the BS that goes on today, either or BOTH in school is preferable to the heathanistic HORSESH*T that goes on today. I pray that I will die before we see another CIVIL war in this country, but it may be aproaching sooner than you think! Ponder that awhile.....

Mad Dog

[Charles]

Today is Confederate Memorial Day. We spent the day decorating the graves of Confederate dead with First National Flags. We also stood musket formation and fired a salute. Tis not a good day for me to think kindly of that hymn. It is very political in nature. I can still remember the times when folks would get up and walk out of Church is that hymn was sung.

Today is a day we remember, it is not a day we forget! There are 363 day of the year to forget, but not today!

[Hobie]

Sorry that you feel that way Charles. I had some folks through the shop today that felt just the opposite.

I tried to find a performance of Dixie that was as good. It is difficult to find such a link...

[KirkD]

Today is Confederate Memorial Day. We spent the day decorating the graves of Confederate dead with First National Flags. We also stood musket formation and fired a salute. Tis not a good day for me to think kindly of that hymn. It is very political in nature. I can still remember the times when folks would get up and walk out of Church is that hymn was sung.

By gum, Charles. There's folks who've used various Bible passages to all sorts of purposes. You don't abandon the Bible too, do you? I'm a Canadian, and I've always thought that was a British Hymn ('course, I could be wrong about that assumption, but I thought I remember it being sung at Sir Winston Churchill's funeral). If you listen to the words, it's got nothing to do with some war that happened in the USA back in the 1800's. It's all about an event that is still to happen, maybe even in our lifetime.

[Charles]

Hobie.. I don't get your drift. You mean we should forget our Confederate ancestors and the cause for which they fought. Way to many people fought and died for their homes and land to forget. Way to much blood and sufferng to forget. Ten years of harsh and puntitive occupation by a foreign army is hard to forget.

The trend today is to demonize the Confederate solider and to treat his scrifice as a shameful thing. Confederate graves and monuments are descrated on a regular basis. The colors are spit on and trurned in a symbol of hate.

Maybe folks think this is just history and we should hold hands and sing Kum By Ya. Maybe that will be possible, when the sacrifice of American patriots in the Southern states will be honored and respected. Those men did not fight and die for salves, they fought and died for their belief in the original American dream and their rights as guaranteed by the United States Constition.

My Ancestors fought in the British Army in the French and Indian War. The Colonial Army in the American Revolutonary War. They were at New Orleans with Andy Jackson and Palo Alto with Taylor. They fought for Texas in 1861-65. They were the the AEF in 1918 and in Europe and the Pacific in WWII. They were in Korea, Viet Nam and several lessor scrapes over the history of this country.

I don't feel like throwing away my ancestors who wore the Grey and followed Lee, just because they were on the side that lost. I won't dishonor them.

On this Confederate Memorial day, I don't apoligize by pride in my history and my ancestory. You should not be sorry for my feelings.. I am not!

You are free to enjoy that song and let it being tears to your eyes. It doesn't make me misty, it makes me mad.

Kirk... Tis an American Song. The tune dates back to the mid 1850's and there have been several sets of lyrics. One set delt with John Brown. Julia Ward Howe heard this song and penned the lyrics we know in 1861 and they were first published in 1862. She wrote this as a spiritual camp song for the Northern army.

This song seeks to claim God as on the side of the North. It seeks to turn the invasion of the South into a nobel and righteous cause. It has done more to perpetuate the myth of Northern moral superiority than just about anything else, beside Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I don't get your drift about forgeting the Bible. Makes no sense to me.

[HORACE]

Very moving, I'm proud to be close allies with you guys.
We just celebrated Anzac Day (Gallipoli landings WWI etc) so I can relate.

[505stevec]

Hobie.. I don't get your drift. You mean we should forget our Confederate ancestors and the cause for which they fought. Way to many people fought and died for their homes and land to forget. Way to much blood and sufferng to forget. Ten years of harsh and puntitive occupation by a foreign army is hard to forget.

The trend today is to demonize the Confederate solider and to treat his scrifice as a shameful thing. Confederate graves and monuments are descrated on a regular basis. The colors are spit on and trurned in a symbol of hate.

Maybe folks think this is just history and we should hold hands and sing Kum By Ya. Maybe that will be possible, when the sacrifice of American patriots in the Southern states will be honored and respected. Those men did not fight and die for salves, they fought and died for their belief in the original American dream and their rights as guaranteed by the United States Constition.

My Ancestors fought in the British Army in the French and Indian War. The Colonial Army in the American Revolutonary War. They were at New Orleans with Andy Jackson and Palo Alto with Taylor. They fought for Texas in 1861-65. They were the the AEF in 1918 and in Europe and the Pacific in WWII. They were in Korea, Viet Nam and several lessor scrapes over the history of this country.

I don't feel like throwing away my ancestors who wore the Grey and followed Lee, just because they were on the side that lost. I won't dishonor them.

On this Confederate Memorial day, I don't apoligize by pride in my history and my ancestory. You should not be sorry for my feelings.. I am not!

You are free to enjoy that song and let it being tears to your eyes. It doesn't make me misty, it makes me mad.

Kirk... Tis an American Song. The tune dates back to the mid 1850's and there have been several sets of lyrics. One set delt with John Brown. Julia Ward Howe heard this song and penned the lyrics we know in 1861 and they were first published in 1862. She wrote this as a spiritual camp song for the Northern army.

This song seeks to claim God as on the side of the North. It seeks to turn the invasion of the South into a nobel and righteous cause. It has done more to perpetuate the myth of Northern moral superiority than just about anything else, beside Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I don't get your drift about forgeting the Bible. Makes no sense to me.

Both the Battle Hymn of the Republic and Uncle Tom's Cabin are espousing God's glory and salvation. I beleive the Word of God talks about God judging nations. Your nation was judged by God and you all were brought back into the Republic where you belong. GET OVER IT! You werent even there. Goodness, quit acting like it took something from you personally. Your freedoms are still in tact and there are northern boys fighting beside your southern boys every day to protect those freedoms. Every time I see a Dixie flag I think bed sheets and banjos. I dare say, If Lincoln wasnt assassinated the Souths acceptance back into the Union would have went better for both sides anyway.

[Ysabel Kid]

I don't know why, but it gets a mite dusty when I hear either song.

+1 Having ancestors that fought on both sides of the war, both have meaning. Thinking of them in the context of today, both still have meaning - with the BHOTR being very applicable to what we are doing today overseas.

They are both beautiful songs that should stir pride in our country no matter what side of the Mason-Dixon line one resides or comes from.

[Ysabel Kid]

I'm proud to be close allies with you guys.

Horace - that feeling is VERY MUTUAL!

[Hobie]

Hobie.. I don't get your drift. You mean we should forget our Confederate ancestors and the cause for which they fought. Way to many people fought and died for their homes and land to forget. Way to much blood and sufferng to forget. Ten years of harsh and puntitive occupation by a foreign army is hard to forget.

The trend today is to demonize the Confederate solider and to treat his scrifice as a shameful thing. Confederate graves and monuments are descrated on a regular basis. The colors are spit on and trurned in a symbol of hate.

Maybe folks think this is just history and we should hold hands and sing Kum By Ya. Maybe that will be possible, when the sacrifice of American patriots in the Southern states will be honored and respected. Those men did not fight and die for salves, they fought and died for their belief in the original American dream and their rights as guaranteed by the United States Constition.

My Ancestors fought in the British Army in the French and Indian War. The Colonial Army in the American Revolutonary War. They were at New Orleans with Andy Jackson and Palo Alto with Taylor. They fought for Texas in 1861-65. They were the the AEF in 1918 and in Europe and the Pacific in WWII. They were in Korea, Viet Nam and several lessor scrapes over the history of this country.

I don't feel like throwing away my ancestors who wore the Grey and followed Lee, just because they were on the side that lost. I won't dishonor them.

On this Confederate Memorial day, I don't apoligize by pride in my history and my ancestory. You should not be sorry for my feelings.. I am not!

You are free to enjoy that song and let it being tears to your eyes. It doesn't make me misty, it makes me mad.

Kirk... Tis an American Song. The tune dates back to the mid 1850's and there have been several sets of lyrics. One set delt with John Brown. Julia Ward Howe heard this song and penned the lyrics we know in 1861 and they were first published in 1862. She wrote this as a spiritual camp song for the Northern army.

This song seeks to claim God as on the side of the North. It seeks to turn the invasion of the South into a nobel and righteous cause. It has done more to perpetuate the myth of Northern moral superiority than just about anything else, beside Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I don't get your drift about forgeting the Bible. Makes no sense to me.

Charles,

You obviously haven't been reading my many posts on this subject over the years. That's quite alright as you were actually working, I know I often wasn't...

Let's see if I can sum it up. My father's family were Yankees and proud of it. My mother's family were Yankees and proud of it. My father's first cousin served with and died with "The Stonewall Brigade", albeit in 1944. I served with "The Stonewall Brigade" albeit in the period 1981-2001. My friends all have family (as nearly every man of age, lest he was crazy, blind or crippled in the south served in some capacity) who served in the Confederate States Army. My in-laws and my daughter's in-laws family of that time, all served with the CSA. I have lived most all my life in either border states like West Virginia and Kentucky or in Virginia. I have served with, known, been befriended by, people of all backgrounds, who served in many wars from WWI to today, in many different countries including some of whom may have been shooting at my family. Men who volunteered, who were drafted, who were forced at gunpoint to be in some army or another. Men who saw terrible things. Old men and young men. In all those experiences, I only met a very few who still hated the other side so much that they could not acknowledge the courage and/or skill of their opponents. Indeed, because of their shared experiences, sometimes it was only the enemy soldier who could truly be trusted to understand them without judgement.

I could not find it in myself, having known these people over the course of my life, to dishonor them and their experience by hating the descendents of those who killed my family members or maimed them for life. Indeed, those who were maimed and had brothers killed didn't hate.

This song is a song written of ideals which we all hold dear. Ideals you have expressed. Yes, it was used as a propagandist motivator for the soldiers of the Unionists at that time. So too was Dixie, a minstrel song (created soley for entertainment) converted to that purpose. And yet, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, at the very time that it was being so used, loved the tune.

At this time, in this world, with the struggle we are having with those who would destroy our homes, subjugate our families, try to force us to abandon our beliefs, eradicate democracy from the world, at this time these songs mean more than they did when brother fought brother in this country. They are the songs of the American patriot.

Those Sons of Confederate Veterans who came into our shop these past couple of days talking about their family's history didn't denigrate the valor of any American serviceperson. They were reverently thankful. So am I.

[505stevec]

Hobie.. I don't get your drift. You mean we should forget our Confederate ancestors and the cause for which they fought. Way to many people fought and died for their homes and land to forget. Way to much blood and sufferng to forget. Ten years of harsh and puntitive occupation by a foreign army is hard to forget.

The trend today is to demonize the Confederate solider and to treat his scrifice as a shameful thing. Confederate graves and monuments are descrated on a regular basis. The colors are spit on and trurned in a symbol of hate.

Maybe folks think this is just history and we should hold hands and sing Kum By Ya. Maybe that will be possible, when the sacrifice of American patriots in the Southern states will be honored and respected. Those men did not fight and die for salves, they fought and died for their belief in the original American dream and their rights as guaranteed by the United States Constition.

My Ancestors fought in the British Army in the French and Indian War. The Colonial Army in the American Revolutonary War. They were at New Orleans with Andy Jackson and Palo Alto with Taylor. They fought for Texas in 1861-65. They were the the AEF in 1918 and in Europe and the Pacific in WWII. They were in Korea, Viet Nam and several lessor scrapes over the history of this country.

I don't feel like throwing away my ancestors who wore the Grey and followed Lee, just because they were on the side that lost. I won't dishonor them.

On this Confederate Memorial day, I don't apoligize by pride in my history and my ancestory. You should not be sorry for my feelings.. I am not!

You are free to enjoy that song and let it being tears to your eyes. It doesn't make me misty, it makes me mad.

Kirk... Tis an American Song. The tune dates back to the mid 1850's and there have been several sets of lyrics. One set delt with John Brown. Julia Ward Howe heard this song and penned the lyrics we know in 1861 and they were first published in 1862. She wrote this as a spiritual camp song for the Northern army.

This song seeks to claim God as on the side of the North. It seeks to turn the invasion of the South into a nobel and righteous cause. It has done more to perpetuate the myth of Northern moral superiority than just about anything else, beside Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I don't get your drift about forgeting the Bible. Makes no sense to me.

Charles,

You obviously haven't been reading my many posts on this subject over the years. That's quite alright as you were actually working, I know I often wasn't...

Let's see if I can sum it up. My father's family were Yankees and proud of it. My mother's family were Yankees and proud of it. My father's first cousin served with and died with "The Stonewall Brigade", albeit in 1944. I served with "The Stonewall Brigade" albeit in the period 1981-2001. My friends all have family (as nearly every man of age, lest he was crazy, blind or crippled in the south served in some capacity) who served in the Confederate States Army. My in-laws and my daughter's in-laws family of that time, all served with the CSA. I have lived most all my life in either border states like West Virginia and Kentucky or in Virginia. I have served with, known, been befriended by, people of all backgrounds, who served in many wars from WWI to today, in many different countries including some of whom may have been shooting at my family. Men who volunteered, who were drafted, who were forced at gunpoint to be in some army or another. Men who saw terrible things. Old men and young men. In all those experiences, I only met a very few who still hated the other side so much that they could not acknowledge the courage and/or skill of their opponents. Indeed, because of their shared experiences, sometimes it was only the enemy soldier who could truly be trusted to understand them without judgement.

I could not find it in myself, having known these people over the course of my life, to dishonor them and their experience by hating the descendents of those who killed my family members or maimed them for life. Indeed, those who were maimed and had brothers killed didn't hate.

This song is a song written of ideals which we all hold dear. Ideals you have expressed. Yes, it was used as a propagandist motivator for the soldiers of the Unionists at that time. So too was Dixie, a minstrel song (created soley for entertainment) converted to that purpose. And yet, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States, at the very time that it was being so used, loved the tune.

At this time, in this world, with the struggle we are having with those who would destroy our homes, subjugate our families, try to force us to abandon our beliefs, eradicate democracy from the world, at this time these songs mean more than they did when brother fought brother in this country. They are the songs of the American patriot.

Those Sons of Confederate Veterans who came into our shop these past couple of days talking about their family's history didn't denigrate the valor of any American serviceperson. They were reverently thankful. So am I.

Well said!

[J Miller]

Of the two songs, I prefer Dixie.

I'm not ashamed to say that I'm an Ilinois born, Arizona raised Southern sympathizer.

But what worries me is that as much as we remember the past, and try to learn from it, we still have differences that are tearing this country asunder.

Today, we have a worse political climate than we did in the 1860s. We have virtually unlimited illegal alien entry to our country and there are certain factions involved that want to destroy us. Certain internal and external factions that seem to be working for the same goal.

Yet we keep fighting the Civil War / War of Northern Aggression. Those of us who are Americans, regardless of what part of this country we were born in, need to lay aside our grudges and feelings of animosity and start thinking as one.

For a house divided simply cannot stand against it's enemys.

Joe

[KirkD]

This song seeks to claim God as on the side of the North. It seeks to turn the invasion of the South into a nobel and righteous cause. It has done more to perpetuate the myth of Northern moral superiority than just about anything else, beside Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I don't get your drift about forgeting the Bible. Makes no sense to me.

Charles, it's not the song it's how people use the song. It's not the Bible, it's how people use the Bible. As a Canadian, I've known and loved the song for many years for what it is about ... the return of Jesus Christ to set things straight here on earth. Tho I see it was written by an American woman, it was played at Sir Winston Churchill's funeral. The American Civil War never crossed my mind until this thread. I think a Christian ought to redeem beautiful things, not defile or reject them. As a Canadian, I got no axe to grind on the side of the North or the South. I just have an axe to grind when people reject something beautiful because someone else used it for purposes for which they do not agree. We cannot let other people deprive us of enjoyment of something beautiful, simply because they used it for other purposes. We need to rise above that and redeem beauty in this world. You won't catch me walkiing out of a church when a hymn about the return of Christ is being sung, simply because someone else used the hymn for other purposes for which I may or may not agree. If God rejected everything that had been used for purposes for which He did not agree, you and I would have eternal damnation to look forward to. But God redeems. We should be imitators of Him and practice redemption in the little ways we can. What moves me about that song is that it reminds me of the glorious day in the future when the fabric of space-time is rent, and the Glory of the Amighty comes pouring through, brighter than a million suns, and the Son of Man, Emmanuel, returns to this ravaged earth that is ruled by people who have totally sold themselves to evil, and His cauterizing and purifying wrath pours out on humanity for what they have done and He puts an end to wickedness and the pride of man, and He restores righteousness, justice, truth, and beauty. There is no other song about the return of the Pierced One that moves me more than this one.

[octagon]

505steve wrote "Every time I see a Dixie Flag I think bedsheets and banjos"

Insulting a Man's heritage shows poor form - It reminds me in fact of the very "bedsheet" crowd of which you speak.

We discuss almost anything here - politely.

[505stevec]

505steve wrote "Every time I see a Dixie Flag I think bedsheets and banjos"

Insulting a Man's heritage shows poor form - It reminds me in fact of the very "bedsheet" crowd of which you speak.

We discuss almost anything here - politely.

Poor form? give me a break. The Civil War was not a war of Northern Aggression except to those who sympathize with slavery. The South fired on Fort Sumpter. Can you imagine OUR Nation being neighbors with a Pro-slavery Nation today? Yeah right. I did not insult the man. I simply hate anything to do with racial bigotry or slavery and this is what the South stood for. I know someone will say State Rights was what it was about. Slavery friend, any way you slice it is what that war was about.

Besides, I have sat here with my Mexican Heritage and read plenty of racial bashing pointed toward us.

[Charles]

Hobie... I do know your history and that is why your post made little sense to me. It really was somewhat cryptic.

I for one do not discount nor denigrate the sacrifices the soldiers of the North made. They are American Patriots. They fact they got sucked up in an unnessary and unjust war does not change the fact they answered the long roll of the drum and fought we valor and courage. They were not the last soliders to be badly used by the politicians

The sticking point is, I also believe the soldiers of the South are American Patriots, but in these days and times, many, many folks will not accord them that respect. This lack of parity and injustice is what gets my hackles up.

I was raised by my Grandather, and his father served in the 21st. Texas Cav. (CSA). So, I may be closer in time to the feelings and sentiments of those who went through the punitive occupation that the North likes to call "The Reconstrution".

Be that as it may, I cannot see the song in question as some sort of Universal Christian Anthem that expresses the hopes of everybody Christian. I cannot seperate it from the times in which it was used as pure Northen propaganda.

Others may supply whatever import to the song they wish. Matters not to me.

I am an unreconstructed Confederate and intend to remain as such. That does not mean I am neither an American or Patriotic. I am in fact both.

I just refuse to surrender the rich history of the South, and it's highest aspirations to the political correct historical revisonists that abound in these times.

Someone must speak for the dead, as the cold grave has closed their mouths and the Rebel Yell is not heard in the land.

The South had to fight two wars of Independence. The first against the British and other others against the Northern politicians who would distort and destroy the America of the Founding Fathers.

The South lost their War of Independence and the intrusive, overbearing, Constitution trampling, Central/Goverment we have today is the result of that grevious loss.

I would dare say the political sentiments of most folks on this board would be much closer to the Confederacy than to the current Federal goverment. The South fought for the right to live their lives according to their own consciounce and not the group think of foreign politicians.

So...Sing, whistle or play whatever song you wish, and I will do the same.

For the record.. I am not fond of Dixie either. It is a silly little minstral sing composed by a Yankee who had never been to the South and had no understanding. It has no content of lasting merit.

The Bonnie Blue Flag is far closer to being the Anthem of the Confederacy and was sung more often than Dixie.

" We are a band of brothers, natives to the soil,
Fighting for the property we gained by honest toil,
When our rights were threatened, the cry rose near and far,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue flag that bears the single star

Chorus

Hurrah, Hurrah, for Southern rights hurrah,
Hurrah for the Bonnie the flag that bears the single star.

As long as the Union was faithful to her trust,
Like friends, and like brothers, both kind were we and just,
But now when Northern treachery, attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue flag that bears the single star.

Repeat the Chorus

We move ahead, but we do not forget.

[Charles]

Steve.. Fort Sumpter was an an Armed Federal Garrison on C.S.A. soil and they refused to leave. I don't know of any country that will permit a hostile and armed foreign army to continue on their soil.

The Federals soliders in Texas, in the garrisons along the Rio Grande, the Nueces, The Brazos and Colorado rivers , had the good sense and graces to pack up and leave. They left with their arms, their colors and their honor. The soliders in Fort Sumpter were given the same opportunity.

I do agree there has been a surplus of "Mexican" bashing on this board, and you will remember when I came down on that subject.

Doing so, was just pure ignorance and I have to tell you associating Dixie with the KKK is just as ignorant.

The Confederate Army contained Anglos, Mexicans, Jews, French, Irish, German and black people. There were as ethnic diverse or more so than the Unior Army. Racist...hardly.

There were many Tejanos that fought for the South. Col Santos Benevides was one of the great Texas Confederate heros. The Tejanos had a dog in the fight and fight they did.

Only a small percentage of Southerners owned slaves, somewhere in the neightborhood of 10 to 15%. The vast, vast, vast majority of the soldiers did own slaves and there were not fighting and dying for some rich man's slaves.

I appreciate your sensativity to racial bigotry and I share than concern with you, but you need to rethink your position and get some facts and not be guided by your feelings along.

[Tom Richardson]

If I am not mistaken the Emancipation Proclamation abolished slavery in the Southern state but did not affect the slaves owned by the Northern stated at the time of the signing.

[Charles]

Tom.. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves in Delaware, Maryland and the District of Colombia where slavery was legal. There were thousands of slaves in New Jersey. New Jersey abolished slavery in 1804, but allowed the owners to keep their slaves as "Apprentices for Life". It took the 13th Amendment against "involuntary servitude" to set them free.

Slavery, thought no legal was common in Nebraska and Indian Territories and they were not effected by the Proclamation.

The Proclamaton also did not free the slaves in those parts of Tennessee and Virginia occupied by Federal Troops.

In short the Emancipation Proclamation only effected the slaves in the "fighting South". The rest were left in bondage.

It took the 13th Amnendment in 1966 to free all of the above slaves.

The purpose of the Proclamation was twofold. It tried to take the moral high ground to gain public support for a war which growing very unpopular in the North. There were draft riots in NYC that took both the Union Army and Navy to put down. Hundreds were killed.

There was also a hope, which didn't pan out, of starting a slave revolt in the South.

Abe wrote that he would free some of the slaves, all of the slaves or none of the slaves if it would perserve the Union.

I guess this kind of blatant hyprocrisy is part of my problems with the "great" hymn... "Let is die to set men free"... I guess that only mean they would die to set other folks slaves free, but not their own.

There are so many folks who are ignorant of causes and means of the War of Southern Independence. All of they know if the PC garbage in their school textbooks. The winners get to write the books don't you know.

So, when folks tell us to "get over it" or "move on", they are asked up to accept as fact and distortion of history and the demonization of out ancestorys. That is easy to say when it is not your history or your ancestors.

Make no mistake about it.. slavery in any form is a moral evil, but this moral evil was not just a Southern wrong.

We will get over it and move on when the Southern patriots get the respect they are due.

[Tom Richardson]

AMEN AND AMEN

[Hobie]

If I am not mistaken the Emancipation Proclamation abolished slavery in the Southern state but did not affect the slaves owned by the Northern stated at the time of the signing.

That is correct.

[Hobie]

Charles,

In a country where so many are descendents of people who immigrated after the 2nd ACW (yet another take ) it may be a bit much for us to expect these ignorant people, what with our current educational systems' bias, to understand the various motivations, sacrifices, and details of that unfortunate war. Not that it isn't worth the effort, I know I try to explain it.

I don't know that the sacrifices made by the Confederate soldier are forgotten or don't get their due. I just ran across these photos of the funeral for the men of the CSS Hunley.

As to being cryptic, well, I do tend to speak in shorthand and assume that others can keep up with me. In this case I thought it clear that these were others of SofCV who felt this way. In conversation, face-to-face, I'm sure you'd have gotten that point.

I couldn't find a good version of "Dixie" (well performed) but this is perhaps better for you, "Good Ol' Rebel Soldier", or as sung.

For those who haven't heard it, here's the Bonnie Blue Flag.

[AmBraCol]

Poor form? give me a break. The Civil War was not a war of Northern Aggression except to those who sympathize with slavery. The South fired on Fort Sumpter. Can you imagine OUR Nation being neighbors with a Pro-slavery Nation today? Yeah right. I did not insult the man. I simply hate anything to do with racial bigotry or slavery and this is what the South stood for. I know someone will say State Rights was what it was about. Slavery friend, any way you slice it is what that war was about.

Besides, I have sat here with my Mexican Heritage and read plenty of racial bashing pointed toward us.

That's fine, Steve. I've noticed that it does no good to present facts to those who are proud of their ignorance and have no desire to seek the truth. If you think it was about slavery, what about the folks in the north who said things like "Not one drop of blood to free the niggers." - that was an attitude that was prevalent and part of the cause of the riots in NY. Racism was not the issue, the northern states saw that they were about to lose their source of low cost raw materials for their factories and moved with force against the south who merely wanted to peacefully leave the union. Go back to the source documents of the time and read what was going on in the north and the south. Current text books feed folks a load of fertilizer about the issues for the most part. Slavery was an issue that Lincoln the great hypocrite used to fan the flames of war in a war weary north. If it WERE about freeing the slaves then there would have been NO exceptions in the Emancipation Proclamation. That document alone shows the fallacy of saying "It was about slavery." So although it probably does no good, there's some facts and ideas for you to chew on.

[Hobie]

Paul's right. Indeed, my great-great-grandfather was a bit ostracized at first because he DID enlist to free the blacks. His dad, though, at loose ends because his help (his son) was gone to war, enlisted for the bonus and for the hope of bounty land. Two generations, close-knit but of a different motivation.

On the southern side they enlisted to keep "them" out. I would have, too. Here in the valley there were lots of folks with ties to PA who opposed succession and then fought for Virginia just as their cousins fought for the Union. Also, there had been, in the mid 1850s, a major migration of mostly related families to Ohio, Indiana and Illinois from Rockbridge County, VA. When the war broke out, MOST served in the Federal forces. Most. Some came home and enlisted in units with other family members. One interesting thing is that the "north" didn't have total mobilization in the way the south did. Attempts in the north to draft (mostly recent immigrants) were sometimes met with riots as in the New York Draft Riots. But the draft wasn't the only cause of that either! It was a complex situation at best. In my research I haven't found many at all that I wouldn't be proud to know. Good folks doing their best to do right in hard times.

I think that now we have some serious threats to our families and we need to get together on this subject. Not unsurprisingly, based on our history, this isn't happening as I'd like.

[Charles]

"I think that now we have some serious threats to our families and we need to get together on this subject. Not unsurprisingly, based on our history, this isn't happening as I'd like." Hobie

Hobie... I don't understand that statment. What threat to what family and what subject needs to be agreed on?

Accross the land, many Confederate momuments and memorials have been removed from public places due to pressure. We have just finished a major fight with the University of Texas. They want to remove several large Confederate Statutes and memorials from their campus. We won, but just by a smidge. It it has not been for the pressures brought to bear by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, United Daughters of the Confederacy and a few other groups, they would have been removed.

Folks talk about others who are just sitting on ready to take away their gun rights and feel the need to have organized opposition. Well, but for the small, but vocal opposition, all traces of Confederate memorials would be expunged from the Country. We fight this battle on a daily basis.

The minute we stop being pro-active, our society will be expunged of Confederate honor. If you are not aware of this battle, you just have not been paying attention.

I sat on my hands for many years, but about five years ago, I decided that I and others did not join the fight, then the battle was lost. That is when I came out of the closet and joined the SCV.

MY first retirement chore is to organize the Col. John S. Ford Camp of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in Brownsville, Texas.

As far as folks today being ignorant of facts and circumstances surrounding the War of Southern Independence, you are correct. But ignorance needs to be challenged or else it will continue to grow.

I will bet there was not one person on this board, other than myself who knew that Saturday was Confederate Memorial Day.

I was at the services for the crew of the Hunley. It was organized by the SCV. Six of us from our Camp went to the services. We were not about to let these folks be buried without the honor they deserved from people who still consider them heros.

For the record many soliders who fought in the Confederate Army thought slavery was a sin and morally wrong, including Robert E. Lee.

[natedontgo]

Unmentioned here(unless I missed it) is how anyone who could raise sufficient $ could buy themselves out of that "draft"... Nate

[Hobie]

Unmentioned here(unless I missed it) is how anyone who could raise sufficient $ could buy themselves out of that "draft"... Nate

One could buy a substitute in most Union states. It was more a matter of political pull in the South but then, one had a strong influence, one's ladies, to serve!

[Hobie]

"I think that now we have some serious threats to our families and we need to get together on this subject. Not unsurprisingly, based on our history, this isn't happening as I'd like." Hobie

Hobie... I don't understand that statment. What threat to what family and what subject needs to be agreed on?

Accross the land, many Confederate momuments and memorials have been removed from public places due to pressure. We have just finished a major fight with the University of Texas. They want to remove several large Confederate Statutes and memorials from their campus. We won, but just by a smidge. It it has not been for the pressures brought to bear by the Sons of Confederate Veterans, United Daughters of the Confederacy and a few other groups, they would have been removed.

Folks talk about others who are just sitting on ready to take away their gun rights and feel the need to have organized opposition. Well, but for the small, but vocal opposition, all traces of Confederate memorials would be expunged from the Country. We fight this battle on a daily basis.

The minute we stop being pro-active, our society will be expunged of Confederate honor. If you are not aware of this battle, you just have not been paying attention.

I sat on my hands for many years, but about five years ago, I decided that I and others did not join the fight, then the battle was lost. That is when I came out of the closet and joined the SCV.

MY first retirement chore is to organize the Col. John S. Ford Camp of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in Brownsville, Texas.

As far as folks today being ignorant of facts and circumstances surrounding the War of Southern Independence, you are correct. But ignorance needs to be challenged or else it will continue to grow.

I will bet there was not one person on this board, other than myself who knew that Saturday was Confederate Memorial Day.

I was at the services for the crew of the Hunley. It was organized by the SCV. Six of us from our Camp went to the services. We were not about to let these folks be buried without the honor they deserved from people who still consider them heros.

For the record many soliders who fought in the Confederate Army thought slavery was a sin and morally wrong, including Robert E. Lee.

Charles,

I get the feeling you are like this one cat my mom has, she just HAS to claw me no matter how well I treat her.

The conflict to which I refer is the attack on our nation by the Islamic radicals.

From the photos, I'd say it wasn't just six men who wouldn't let the crew of the Hunley be buried without the honors they deserved.

I agree that the PC police have no concept of that which they preach. They simply can not comprehend some simple things. Here in VA "The Stonewall Brigade" (officially so named) was denied permission to use an old shoulder sleeve insignia because it depicts the memorial STATUE of Thomas J. "Stonewall" Jackson. BTW, T. J. Jackson taught his wife's slaves to read and write which was illegal at the time AND donated money to establish "black" churches, one of which is here in Staunton and named for him! This was not enough to dissuade these idiots.

That said, I STILL like the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" as well as "Dixie" and "Bonnie Blue Flag". I also am fond of "Yankee Doodle" and "Annie Laurie", too.

One more thing Charles, remember you can not dishonor a man, he can only do that to himself.

[Charles]

No Hobie.. I am not trying to claw you. You use such general terms and do not talk in the specific, that often, not being a mind reader, I have no idea what you are talking about. I would not have gotton Islamic Radicals out of your statement.

No, there were far more than six of us there. I am well aware of that. There were thousands. I doubt if there has been more Confederate Uniforms on the streets since 1865. But each of them representated a person that has deep apprecation and respect for the Southern cause and the men that served it.

You say a nobody can dishonor a man unless he dishonors himself. Again that raises question in my mind as to your meaning.

1) You could be saying that the Confederate soldiers dishonored themselves.

2) You could be saying that the current attempts to dishonor Confederate soldiers are not important, because they can't change what the soldiers did and who they were.

Let me remind you that perception becomes reality and if the drumbeat of hostility against the Confederacy and it's memorials are allowed to go unchallenged then dishonor becomes reality. Your statement is a nice platitude, but meaningless in the current situation.

I realize you come from "mixed blood" and your feeling for the Southern Cause don't run as deep as some of us.

Again, I am not trying to claw you, just trying to understand and be understood.

A fellow has to decide for himself what is important to him and to life. I for one have less fear of the radical muslim than I do of the slow erosion of our American values, traditions and morals. I consider myself a fair student of history, and my understanding is that great civilizations die from internal corruption and not external invasion.

Our greatest enemy is not them.. but us!

My ancestors are not just a collection of bones and dust. They were living, breathing human beings that were deeply involved in shaping their times and delivering to sucessive generations the American dream. Some of them paid the price with their lives. I will not forget what they and others like them did, and I won't allow others to heap scorn on them.

I remember when the Viet Nam vets came home, and the scorn they received for serving their country. They were done a great unjustice and so are the Confederate Soldiers. No American patriot should be the object of contempt and scorn. Any man who answers the long roll of the drum is worthy of respect as a patriot.

You guessed it.. I do feel strongly about this and I do not plan to "go along to get along". This is not play or trivia for me. When it comes to respecting all American patriots, I am as serious as a heart attack.

Again, nothing personal.. no clawing..just trying to understand and be understood.

Grace and Peace... Charles

[KirkD]

My ancestors are not just a collection of bones and dust. They were living, breathing human beings that were deeply involved in shaping their times and delivering to sucessive generations the American dream. Some of them paid the price with their lives. I will not forget what they and others like them did, and I won't allow others to heap scorn on them.

Charles, honoring and remembering noble deeds and ideas of good people long passed is a positive contribution. Denigrating a hymn about the return of Jesus Christ is a negative thing. It taints the good you are trying to do.

[sore shoulder]

I do not plan to "go along to get along".

Grace and Peace... Charles

A man after my own heart. I have always sympathised with the South ever since junior high when I first heard of the idea of seccesion and states rights, and couldn't quite wrap my head around the explanation of why we fought. Later in life my sympathies were validated. I despise a false cause being used to justify atrocities. I have no doubt which side I would have been on.

[BruceB]

I can still remember the times when folks would get up and walk out of Church is that hymn was sung.

It used to greatly p*ss off my ex when I would sing Dixie at mass when the rest were singing the BHotR. Once I really confused a fellow next to me who was trying to listen to me because he didn't know the words to BHotR.

[505stevec]

Poor form? give me a break. The Civil War was not a war of Northern Aggression except to those who sympathize with slavery. The South fired on Fort Sumpter. Can you imagine OUR Nation being neighbors with a Pro-slavery Nation today? Yeah right. I did not insult the man. I simply hate anything to do with racial bigotry or slavery and this is what the South stood for. I know someone will say State Rights was what it was about. Slavery friend, any way you slice it is what that war was about.

Besides, I have sat here with my Mexican Heritage and read plenty of racial bashing pointed toward us.

That's fine, Steve. I've noticed that it does no good to present facts to those who are proud of their ignorance and have no desire to seek the truth. If you think it was about slavery, what about the folks in the north who said things like "Not one drop of blood to free the niggers." - that was an attitude that was prevalent and part of the cause of the riots in NY. Racism was not the issue, the northern states saw that they were about to lose their source of low cost raw materials for their factories and moved with force against the south who merely wanted to peacefully leave the union. Go back to the source documents of the time and read what was going on in the north and the south. Current text books feed folks a load of fertilizer about the issues for the most part. Slavery was an issue that Lincoln the great hypocrite used to fan the flames of war in a war weary north. If it WERE about freeing the slaves then there would have been NO exceptions in the Emancipation Proclamation. That document alone shows the fallacy of saying "It was about slavery." So although it probably does no good, there's some facts and ideas for you to chew on.

Your right, Not all people in the north wanted to free the slaves even though it was the right thing to do. The Emancipation Proclimation was limited for this very reason. To gain the support of more congressmen in the day. Lincoln tried his best with what he had. The war however was about slavery in the end. Let me ask you isnt it great that slavery ended with the war? I thought so. pick your own reason and stick with that. slavery ended with the war like it or not.

[AmBraCol]

Your right, Not all people in the north wanted to free the slaves even though it was the right thing to do. The Emancipation Proclimation was limited for this very reason. To gain the support of more congressmen in the day. Lincoln tried his best with what he had. The war however was about slavery in the end. Let me ask you isnt it great that slavery ended with the war? I thought so. pick your own reason and stick with that. slavery ended with the war like it or not.

Slavery did NOT end with the war. Not really. Take a look at the sweat shops in the north during the same time period and later. They continued to work folks to the bone for miserable salaries. A slave owner at least had a vested interest in the well being of his property. The northern industrialists had no such interest in the miserable souls that made them rich. At least the slaves had a home to live in, food to eat and medical care. Many slaving away in the mines and sweatshops in the north had next to nothing in comparison, just a miserable "salary" that was barely enough to keep body and soul together.

I still see the same spirit down here in S. America. Folks with no education working for minimum salary or less because they've no options. And yet the owners of the factories drive new cars and live in fancy houses while their employees barely keep body and soul together. And where I live the situation is nothing compared to less advanced countries around the region. And then there's China, our great supplier of all things cheap - thanks to cheap labor that again is on a level even lower than the slavery of the American south. If there had not been a "civil war" then slavery would have died out in a few years due to the economics of the institution...

No, slavery didn't end in 1865.

[AmBraCol]

Charles, honoring and remembering noble deeds and ideas of good people long passed is a positive contribution. Denigrating a hymn about the return of Jesus Christ is a negative thing. It taints the good you are trying to do.

Kirk, I looked up the lyrics and history of the hymn in question. It is debatable as to what Julia W. Howe had in mind when she penned the words. If one is ignorant of the political situation and the circumstances under which she lived when she wrote the words then one indeed sees a beautiful hymn. However, when one's homeland was invaded and destroyed to the tune of that hymn and one knows the background thereof, it's hard to see past the political situation that caused the words to be written. It makes me wonder about the meddling yankees and what the results will be 100 years from now in other nations they have "reconstructed"...

Now I'm wondering if there's someway to salvage the hymn and redeem it. What would it take to remove the references to the invading yankee army? Hmmm.... makes me wonder. You see, it's not about the second coming of the Lord, it's more about the idea that Julia W. Howe had that the yankees had a righteous cause which gave them the right to kill, maim and destroy. If an army today were to do what Sherman did through the heart of the South, they'd be brought up on charges of war crimes. That kind of action leaves long standing ill will and resentment as well as distrust of those who laud the perpetrators as some kind of hero. What's this got to do with the subject at hand? Well, you see the words from a historical void, not knowing about the circumstances behind the writing thereof and see a glorious hymn. Charles knows the history and the evil that was done by those who sung the hymn - and it's very hard to separate the two, especially when folks keep yammering that the invasion and destruction was just.

Just some matter for thought...

[BruceB]

There's another song that will raise the hackles of Southrons; Marching Through Georgia. Is still remember some band plying it to "honor" Jimmy Carter prior to his election as POTUS. I guess they picked it since he was from Georgia. He just stood there and shook his head.

[Charles]

KirkD.. et al

I will be packing the computor and heading 120 miles farther South latter on today, so I won't be able to continue this dance. However, I do want to respond to KirkD's latest post. I don't know when I can get back online. It may be a matter of days or weeks. Life is very topsy turvy right now.

First, I honor the Soldiers from the North who served, suffered and died. They were serving their country. They were not the first or last men to have been the pawns of politicians. If you read my posts on this thread, you will find I have already said this. So your attempt to portray me as dishonoring the solders of the North will not fly.

Second, For two thousand plus years, people of all stripes and adgendas has taken Christ, dressed him up in the uniform of their cause and used His as propanganda for their purposes. "Look see, we have Jesus on our side".

The Battle Hymn of the Republic, in spite of any chord it strikes in your Candadian heart is not about Jesus and his second coming. It a blatant attempt to politicize our Lord. IMHO, it comes close to blasphemy.

Not being and American and a Southerner, I don't expect you to understand this. You just take the song in a superficial manner and don't have all of this history running around in your head.

Our Lord was not on the side of the North or the South in that great blood letting. There were find Christian men, Jews, antheists and every kind of man on both sides. The war was not between good and evil, good and bad, it was a war between folks who had different political and economic views of the future of their country. Circumstances became such that these two peoples and their beliefs could not exist together without one swallowing up the other. The South decided to leave and the North said.. No you can't, and the war for Southern Independence was on, and the rest is history.

So, to your comment about me trying to do a bad thing, again you can't pin that on me..it won't fly.

[KirkD]

KirkD.. et al
So your attempt to portray me as dishonoring the solders of the North will not fly.

Charles, that is not what I was saying. It is not the Union armies I am concerned about here. I was saying that, on the one hand, it is a positive contribution to today's society to remind people of the full story of the South but, on the other hand, you are dishonoring yourself, and your work by denigrating a Hymn about the return of Christ. In my line of work, I am constantly facing people who have rejected this, that, or other parts of Christianity simply because someone misused a Scripture, or claimed they were a Christian while they were committing some atrocity, etc,. etc..

With regard to AmBraCol's and your thoughts on the Hymn, it would be an awfully hard stretch to try and make those words fit the Union armies in the Civil War, even though the Union armies used it. I am very familiar with the prophecies concerning the end times and the words of that hymn are prophetic in nature. In Canada, that hymn is sung with glorious thoughts of the return of Christ and not so much as the scarcest inkling of a thought for the Union. Indeed, in the country church were I grew up, most of the rural folk would not have even known what you were talking about if you mentioned the Union armies. When that hymn was sung at Sir Winston Churchill's funeral in the UK, it certainly was not sung with the Union armies in mind.

Now, I will concede that the writing of that Hymn was inspired by her visit to the camps. I've been told one should not play cards, because the pictures on the cards were originally inspired by unrighteous intentions. I've been told that we should not celebrate Easter or Christmas because those days were originally pagan celebrations. My response arises out of Titus 1:15 "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled." December 25th may, or may not have been the date of some ancient pagan festival. What matters is that Christianity has redeemed that date by choosing to make it a day to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. I, for one, am not going to give that date to the pagans. In the same way, the lady upon seeing the camps of the Northern armies with their circling fires was reminded of Christ's return at Armageddon, long prophesied, and wrote a hymn about a much greater judgment in the future at the return of Christ, so I am not going to give that hymn to the Union armies.

As as been pointed out, and I heartily agree, the name of Jesus, the name of Christianity, various passages of Scripture, various hymns, have all been used by people, groups and nations with intentions that may not have been consistent with what is right. But I will not reject Christ, Christianity, certain Bible passages, or certain hymns because of that. I certainly understand the baggage that can become attached to something otherwise honorable, and the repulsive effect it can have on those who have been on the receiving end of whatever it was, but a Christian needs to rise above that, certainly a former pastor.

I would have to say, lest you think I am defending the North, that I have had an interest in the American Civil War for several years, and I have read enough to persuade my sympathies in the direction of the South, especially in this day and age when the governments are increasingly trying to tell us what to do. Having said that, when I read the words of that hymn, I see the coming of the Lord. When you read the words of that hymn, you see the Union armies, not because of the words themselves, but because of how the hymn was used. Therefore, the Union used the hymn and, by rejecting it for that reason, you permit the hymn to be politicized as well.

I expect a pastor or former paster to set a higher standard than that. A leader in the church needs to focus on redeeming, not condemning. In this case, don't grant the hymn to the Union. Take it back from the Union and give it to Christ, where it belongs. The 'Lord' in the hymn is not, or ought not to be, the Union. The Lord is Christ, so give the hymn to Him. Once that is done, then you can honorably defend the Confederacy, and no one can fault you.

[/quote]

[Blaine]

Charles, TomR and others: I find it amusing that you find anything remotely pro northern or anti southern highly disrespectful, but feel free to blast the people of the North with any kind of harsh language you feel like vomiting out.......I'll not bend or break the rules of the board by telling you how distastful that is to me.......Sore, ignorant losers is about as nice as I can get on the subject. And that's all I'll say and I hope your hate and bile stews you till the end of days.