Barnes TSX for the 375 Win (updated)

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:48 pm

First, an explanation. I started off with the 235gr TSX cut to 185gr and posted the details and range report here http://marlinowners.com/board/viewtopic ... sc&start=0.

This post is making heavier bullets, from the Barnes 270 and 300gr TSX's.

So here it is.

OK, the 270 and 300gr bullets arrived, as mentioned. This afternoon I did a few to see how close I got in my weight guess. It turns out the 270gr TSX came out right at 220-223gr, and the 300gr TSX came out at 255gr, finished.

I guessed pretty close. I have lots of pics to show and will explain as I post them.

The image above is a side by side comparison, which I never did before. Thought you'd like to see how it started. On the left is the finished 220gr bullet, next to the 270gr it started as. Then the 255gr next to the 300gr that IT started as.

Next we have the 250gr Hornady bullet I made from the 270gr spire point, and wrote about in my article, on my website. The center bullet is the 225gr finished and the far right is the 255gr finished.

Here's a pic of the three above laying on their side. Note, the cannelure of the Hornady, lines up with the groove in the TSX's where the case is crimped. This gives you a look at how much bullet is down in the case. Please note the 225gr TSX is the same, in the case, length as the Hornady. This gives me ideas along the lines of Paco's loads and the 38-55 case, but for the purposes of these tests, I'll stick to 375 brass.

Here's a pic of the three side by side, along with another one laying down to you an idea of the hollow point. It's .330" deep and about .250" wide at the mouth.

and one last pic with the three laid out on a piece of paper, labeled. I may get a chance to go this weekend for a pig, I hope it works out. I will definately take pics and post results if I do. Also 375win may get out on April 15th for the same.

Let me tell ya folks, these were BIG bullets when I started. I'd like to see how they perform from the factory out of a 375 cal bolt gun into big game. That 300gr bullet from something like a 375 Taylor (338 Win Mag necked up to 375) would be devastating on even an Alaska Brown Bear. It's a LONG bullet too.

lever-4-life · Post by **lever-4-life** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:54 pm

You have given hope to california levergun hunters! Thank you so much for all the time you put into this project! I bet those barns H.P.'s would do a number on game.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:00 am

Awesome. I was really impressed with the examples you brought to the get together last weekend. Did I hear you right that you are going to send some to Barnes so they can check them out?

I cant wait to read your game report when you get back from your hunt. Where are you going?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:01 am

lever 4 life,
Thanks, for the kind words, hope you're right.

Jeremy,
Yes, I wanted to wait till I got some heavier samples to send along. Will send them all out this weekend, most likely.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:39 am

handirifle -

As you have discovered that in order for Barnes to make a reasonably heavy bullet out of pure copper, they have to make the bullet awfully long.

Here is an example of what I'm talking about. The bullet on the left as you're looking at the picture is a Speer 240gr (.429) Soft Point the bullet in the center is a Hornady 265gr (.430) Soft Point/Flat Point and the bullet on the right as you're looking at the picture is a Barnes 225gr (.429) Hollow Point.

I think you know that I have .444 Marlin rifles that I want a non-lead bullet for and so far the only one available is the .225gr Barnes bullet. It doesn't instill much confidence that the .225gr Barnes Copper bullet will perform like my lead based/lead bullets from .240gr through 290gr.

However, I've read some articles on Barnes Copper bullets and have talked to some guys who use them here in my area and the articles and the guys who shoot the Barnes Copper bullets said/say that the key to Barnes Copper bullets is their uniform expansion without weight loss due to bullet fragmentation. As an example let's say that I shoot a deer with a Hornady .444 (.430) 265gr bullet and after the bullet is recovered, the bullet weighs 212gr due to 20% weight loss because of fragmentation. Now lets say I shoot another deer with a Barnes Copper .444 (.429) 225gr bullet and the bullet expands/mushrooms with no weight loss due to fragmentation and the recovered bullet does indeed weigh 225gr. Guys, articles, and Barnes all say that the 225gr Barnes Copper bullet is more effective that the 265gr Hornady bullet because the Barnes bullet retained all it weight and transferred all it's energy to the animal shot. Not sure I buy this completely but I'm willing to give it a try.

Barnes and some of the guys say that the mushroomed petals of the Barnes Copper bullets are sharp and that they cause massive internal bleeding and damage which lead to immediate/quick kills. Will have to see.

Sorry for being a little long here and I hope you've gotten my drift and that I made sense.

Great work on your part and I'm following it closely.

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Have a look at this site: http://www.huntingbullets.com/

They have some bullets which might be usable for .375W. The pictures can only be viewed in the German section under "Spezielles".

I wrote Barnes, that we did need a TSX for the .375W in Sweden, as we had a lead ban precipitating recently, but it had temporarily been withdrawed. Barnes sent a friendly letter, but the haven't yet made any bullet. However, I keep shooting the fine Original 255 grs.

But, having written this, I must say that I like the look of Handirifle's bullets better than the Reichenbergers in the pictures of this posting.

Old Sh.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:08 pm

just looking at the 30-30 Barnes bullets I bought, I would have to say that the petals look wicked.

I am looking for a bullet for the 35 Remington and their 140 grain pistol bullet doesn't inspire confidence in me, either. How would it penetrate bone? But for game like deer, they should be great.

I think we just need to re-think our assumptions, if a bullet expands like that and cuts tissue, who cares how heavy it is?

"The Deadliest Mushroom in the Forest" or whatever.

Dave James · Post by **Dave James** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:55 pm

WHOA!!!! Gives me the idea to try some of the .338 TSX for my 33wcf

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Mar 20, 2008 11:44 pm

Modoc
I was talking with old savage this afternoon, and he was giving me an example of your theory. He shot a small Antelope on a frontal quartering shot, with a 6MM 100gr bullet.

The bullet was recovered in the hind quarters adn all that was left was a ball weighing about 30gr. That's a 70% loss of weight and energy.

Now considering the Barnes 85gr TSX, if it retained even 90% of it's weight, that' still over 76gr left. A 10% loss compared to a 70% loss is pretty good.

old shatterhand

Good reading, thanks for the link. seems like a totally different approach to bullet design, compared to what you come across over here.

Thanks for the compliment. I do hope they perform up to my own expectations.

Interestingly, I had experimented with melting lead free solder into the nose of one of these, but my methods are nearly primitive and the results weren't much better.

One idea I haven't tried, but have considered many times is, melting the stuff artificail fishing worms are made of. That seems to me like something that may help initiate a rapid expansion, but I think I'll wait till I see results from the plain HP first.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 12:06 am

Dave James wrote:WHOA!!!! Gives me the idea to try some of the .338 TSX for my 33wcf

Yep, that's the same way I got started in the project. My guess is something in the 200gr ought to serve you nicely. Based on what I've seen, it will take something about 250gr to get to that weight. I've averaged about a 20% loss in the making process.

Points to help, in case you take it on. Try to keep as much of the bullet as possible OUTSIDE the case. Leaves more room for powder. The closer to the IN CASE length you can get to one of the comperable lead bullet weight, the more you can use that weight as a reference for load data.

Also, make sure to test cycle a loaded dummy round and make sure it feeds and chambers correctly. I tried to just cut the tip off and true it up, then load it. It would not feed, so I had to round out the ogive a bit.

Also, when you cut the tip, use caution, as I have learned, cause the copper will deform easily. For that, I've made bullet holding blocks made from 3/4 X 3/4" aluminum, drilled to the appropriate depth (determined by trial and error) and clamped in the vice to hold the bullet. I can post pics of mine to give you an idea.

Finally, make sure the hollow point is wide enough and deep enough to open on impact. In my case, it's an educated guess.

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:31 am

Keep up the fire boys! Of course the only real reason for the lead ban is to get in one more regulation to make it hard on hunters but we are stuck with it until we better organize. In the meantime, we can use technology to overcome these regulation and comply with the law. The work you are doing is invaluable!!!

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:09 am

You know, Barnes Bullets makes pure copper bullets with what they call "Silvex"r and Barnes describes "Silvex"r as -- "Silvex is a patented, non-toxic, tungsten-based material manufactured by a patented process." Barnes is currently using it in their MRX Bullet line. "Silvex"r is lead free.

Maybe Barnes will realize the need for adding this tungsten-based material to many of their bullets (i.e., 225gr .44 (.429) copper bullet) so as to give these bullets more weight and lessen the length of the bullets.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

handirifle -

Since you seem to have a rapport with Barnes, maybe you can bring it up to them. Check out "Silvex"r on their website. Just put Silvex in their search box and hit enter or click search.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we keep working on it, we'll beat the **** at their own game.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:46 pm

Modoc
I think it's a good idea, but those suckers are REALLY expensive, as if a dollar a bullet isn't enough.

With the prices of metal commodoties these days, I don't see them going down either, even after the war.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 5:12 pm

I can tell you that a Barnes 180gr from a 300 WM will go through both sides of an elk at 400 yrds leaving a nickel sized hole on the off side, bullet unrecovered, elk walked 10 feet. No fragments in meat.

new pig hunter · Post by **new pig hunter** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:25 pm

WAY COOL !!

Cheers,

Carl

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 9:53 pm

sore shoulder wrote:I can tell you that a Barnes 180gr from a 300 WM will go through both sides of an elk at 400 yrds leaving a nickel sized hole on the off side, bullet unrecovered, elk walked 10 feet. No fragments in meat.

What do you suppose the velocity of the bullet was at that point?

Looking at the Rem ballistics, using the bullet with the worst BC it shows about 2100fps at 400yds. So, I really wonder if this one would do the same, leaving the muzzle at 2400, maybe out to 100yds still doing 2100?

Would be really cool to see results on game.

Carl,
I think the 220gr might end up being the best OVERALL bullet, but the 180 might be a good 200yd deer bullet. I suppose it will all depend on terminal ballistics, how well it expands on game.

I have made the cutting tool for the 270/220 gr bullets. It's like the one for the 235's only longer. This is a piece of 3/4 square aluminum rod thet's drilled to thepremeasured depth to allow me to hold the bullet without damaging it and cut the tip off. Then it goes into the lathe for the final work.

Gonna make some more soon.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 21, 2008 10:13 pm

handirifle wrote:
sore shoulder wrote:I can tell you that a Barnes 180gr from a 300 WM will go through both sides of an elk at 400 yrds leaving a nickel sized hole on the off side, bullet unrecovered, elk walked 10 feet. No fragments in meat.
What do you suppose the velocity of the bullet was at that point?

Looking at the Rem ballistics, using the bullet with the worst BC it shows about 2100fps at 400yds. So, I really wonder if this one would do the same, leaving the muzzle at 2400, maybe out to 100yds still doing 2100?

Would be really cool to see results on game.

.

I used to know it off the top of my head. Sorry but I dont have my Barnes manual with me or I would look it up. According to Barnes website the 180gr TSX BT has a BC of .453. My 300WM muzzle velocity is 3100fps.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:07 am

No biggie, but just curious how yours will compare to the one I have made, in performance.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 12:26 am

handirifle wrote:No biggie, but just curious how yours will compare to the one I have made, in performance.

Barnes bullets have a reputation for being consistent performers at various velocities. I've seen them in comparison tests with other manufacturers, and the only other bullet that is as consistent is the Nosler Partition.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:06 am

sore shoulder wrote:
handirifle wrote:No biggie, but just curious how yours will compare to the one I have made, in performance.
Barnes bullets have a reputation for being consistent performers at various velocities. I've seen them in comparison tests with other manufacturers, and the only other bullet that is as consistent is the Nosler Partition.

I have no doubt about that, but I've modified the nose portion considerably.

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:22 am

sore shoulder wrote:I can tell you that a Barnes 180gr from a 300 WM will go through both sides of an elk at 400 yrds leaving a nickel sized hole on the off side, bullet unrecovered, elk walked 10 feet. No fragments in meat.

I have similar experience with the tiny Barnes X 53 grs in a .222 Remington on roe deer. They have been shot at distances up to 250 yards, and fell almost immediately. Nu bullets recovered and no meat damage.

Old Sh.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:44 pm

Well spoke with a Barnes rep (via email) and he says he doubts Barnes will make the TSX for the 375, "but you never know" was his coverall phrase.

On the good side I got some tips from him and will try to incorporate then in my design. I also got some good feedback for testing performance of the bullets.

Will post on that when I get out again.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:37 pm

I have a new approach, I'm considering. I tested on one tonight and I think it will work pretty slick. I'll use my cutting template to cut them to the proper length, then place it in the lathe, true the face and drill the hollow point. What I'll NOT do is have to trim the ogive, since that was the inconsistant part.

I'm going to design and make a swage to press over the hollow point portion and force it into a cone shape, without using the lathe. That will save a LOT of the time needed to currently make them and will make them VERY consistant. I'll just have to install a depth stop on the drill for the hollow point.

I'd LOVE to have a way, to force the tip into a cone, with a rod in the center to prevent any buckling.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:41 pm

I wish I had the skills that you have when it comes to projects like this.

I think you are on the right track with a swage let us know how it works out.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:33 am

Don't know about the skills part, but will let you know about the progress.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:14 am

handirifle -

Here's a WILD idea!!!! What do you suppose would happen if you took one of those Barnes bullets and didn't do any modification to it at all but instead turned it upside down and loaded it into the case pointy-end-first?

Seems I recall someone writing about this a few years ago who used Remington Core-Lokt Pointed Soft Points for hanloading his deer rounds and turned them around for hunting (I can't remember what) using them as a flat point.

Maybe I'm goofy (many say I am) but I swear I've read/heard about doing that more than once.

If it would work, you could retain the full weight of the bullet you are using/modifying.

OK!!!! You can go ahead and reply with the laughing smilies now.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:07 pm

I read the same thing, and it would most likely work, but it doesn't meet two ctriteria I have. One, it would limit powder space, a LOT. These are long bullets, and second, it would not expand.

In the latest update i saw on the new laws, "expanding", was dropped from the language, but I doubt that will last. Besides, even though I'm sure a .375 hole in a deer or pig will kill it, not nearly I'm sure, as fast as when they fully expand.

It would simplify things though!

The boattail portion would most likely feed very well. I made a make shift frocing cone for one hollowed out bullet last night and it fed without a hitch, but looked like stuff, in my opinion.

I was making my own "flying trash cans".

I spent a couple hours scouring the web looking for an affordable swaging die I could buy, but about $240, for one die was about the lowest.

Gonna look at some steel stock and see what I can come up with. Was thinking maybe drill the hole and round out the nose with a grinding bit in a drill pess. ????

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:48 pm

One factor you have to consider is that when you run the bullet into a die or any time you "work" the ogive, you will be hardening it more than it already is. Manipulation of copper will harden it. For a die, look into some prehardened 4140. MSC carries it in many diameters. (unfortunately they do not carry it already threaded). It is ~32RC in hardness which is not real hard but should be hard enough for the number that you might be making. It won't last like carbide or tool steel but you won't have to send it off to be hardened either. Get some oil hardened tool steel to make a cannon reamer. That will have to be hardened but you can do that with an OX/AC torch and a can of motor oil (get some no scale also). The 4140 is hard but it is also leaded so it will take a little pressure to start the cut but when it does start, it cuts very well. It also drills beautifully, so drill out as much as you can and only ask the reamer to make the final shape. If you want to go to all that trouble, I'd skip buying the Barnes and just buy some C102 copper rod in .375, drill your hole, anneal the slug and form in the die. You can play with grooves and such but remember that every time you remove material, you will have to make the bullet longer to compensate for it. Good luck.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:40 pm

I don't remember where but I remember the circumstances of the guy loading the Power Soft Point with the bullet turned around.

He used the Remington Core-Lokt Power Soft Point as his primary deer round in his bolt action rifle and turned them around and loaded them point down in the case for his back-up .30-30 lever action rifle. As I recall, he said it saved him money by not having to buy proper FPSP bullets for lever action rifle rounds. He said the accuracy was good.

Hell, it was an idea that apparently has worked for others in the past.

Keep up the good work on those handloads.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:21 pm

Hell, cut the nose off a Nosler partition and load it backwards. Who knows, due to the open back end, the darn thing might actually expand. Better have a long throat though.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:37 pm

Leverluver wrote:Hell, cut the nose off a Nosler partition and load it backwards. Who knows, due to the open back end, the darn thing might actually expand. Better have a long throat though.

That might work but the ultimate goal here is Lead Free. The Nosler Partition has a lead core. But good thoughts one and all.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:49 pm

dyslexia....Alzheimer's....one of them

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:51 pm

handirifle wrote:Don't know about the skills part, but will let you know about the progress.

Trust me your skills far exceed my own I have seen some of your work in person. If I was doing this project it would look like a penny that just got done being hit by a train or worse.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:35 pm

Lots of chatter going on here. The partition idea would be an outstanding one if not for the stupid condor rule!

leverluver,
Thanks for the info on the die. Actually I tried something a bit different tonight, and it seems to be working. I'm drilling a larger dia hole and trimming the nose less. Still feeds perfect in my Winny too.

These will be 220gr units. I need to test them on game, but with my hunting skills that might take years.

Truth hurts.

Newpig hunter has 20 of them (the 185gr ones) and am waiting for a chance to hear a live (dead?) game report.

I'd love to send out a few samples but I realize more than a few is needed to sight in and shoot game.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:03 pm

Well, was trying out something new tonight, something that was suggested by another bullet maker.

I made a bullet out of lead free solder. I happened upon the fact that the case of a fired, 223 Remington is nearly .375 dia. So for kick and grins I put one, or three, in the lathe and cut the rim off the bottom of the case.

I also cut the case to the approximate length of the 220gr Barnes. I plugged the primer flash hole, and heated the case and filled it with lead free solder.

Well, all I can say is it's butt ugly, and weighs 205gr, as a filled soft nose, and is the same length as the 220gr Barnes.

As far as I'm concerned, the lead free solder, is a last resort.

Still working on the Barnes project.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:05 pm

Do you have a pic?
So how are the Barnes coming anything new?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:18 pm

No pic yet, it really looks like a brass tube, nothing special. Nothing new on the barnes issue yet.

Is there anyone planning on going hunting with a 375 anytime soon? I know newpighunter was going back out the 15th and I hope he's successful this time out, and we can have a report.

This idea came from article about folks using 22 rimfire cases to make jackets for 224 caliber rounds.

Lead free solder will mold OK, but it's light and not sure yet how it performs on media. I might sometime load this one up and test it.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:46 pm

I started reading this thread and the first thing that came to my mind before I finished was PEWTER. It's lead free and can be cast quite easily.

Years ago when I was a LEO and couldn't afford those fancy green KTW armor piercing rounds a buddy of mine and I made up some home brew penetrators.

We took a mould used by a local PD where they cast for their 9mm's. The mould was said to throw a 121 gr. pointed bullet for ease of feeding by Dept. firearms. We borrowed the mould from the guy that did their casting and made up a couple hundred out of almost pure linotype. The results were a bullet weighing 87-90 grains IIRC. With a stout charge of Unique we punched holes in the bumper of an old Ford Fairlane back when they had real steel in them.
We never did recover anything we shot and loaded in a .375 I doubt you'd get much expansion with anything short of a big hollow point. Casting might be more cost effective than machining though.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:30 pm

Rusty wrote:I started reading this thread and the first thing that came to my mind before I finished was PEWTER. It's lead free and can be cast quite easily.

Years ago when I was a LEO and couldn't afford those fancy green KTW armor piercing rounds a buddy of mine and I made up some home brew penetrators.

We took a mould used by a local PD where they cast for their 9mm's. The mould was said to throw a 121 gr. pointed bullet for ease of feeding by Dept. firearms. We borrowed the mould from the guy that did their casting and made up a couple hundred out of almost pure linotype. The results were a bullet weighing 87-90 grains IIRC. With a stout charge of Unique we punched holes in the bumper of an old Ford Fairlane back when they had real steel in them.
We never did recover anything we shot and loaded in a .375 I doubt you'd get much expansion with anything short of a big hollow point. Casting might be more cost effective than machining though.

Rusty
Interesting. Actually, I've been running new idea through my little mind, and it's one of a bullet in the MRX or Partition design. I was thinking steel, but I know there can be some issues with it being outlawed on some ranges. Understandable, especially out here, due to sparks.

Along the lins of that design, I'd figured, I could build a bullet, with a partition about 2/3 up from the bottom, fill it with ??? and make the point a thick jacketed hollow point. Let THAT do the expanding.

Wonder how pewter compares to lead in weight?

Actually, was just looking at another site and looked up what pewter was made of. Here's the answer.

"Pewter is an alloy or mixture of metals that can contain various percentages of tin, lead, antimony, bismuth, copper or silver"

Lead is the problem, for me anyway.

Ah, well, it was a thought.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:32 pm

Actually, as I looked farther, they mention a "fine pewter" which they claim is lead free.

Will investigate farther.

Thanks for the tip.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:53 pm

Good work Handi, interesting read.

Nath.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:07 am

OK more data for everyone. I copied this from the Marlin owners forum, cause I want to give credit where due. a poster named "PB" over there made a suggestion, and I followed up on it. here's the result.

I hope you like it.
Handi

PB wrote:
Back to the Barnes bullets for a second. I don't think I would be too happy with the BC #'s you are getting. Is it possible to cut the rear off the Barnes bullet to bring down the length and then the tip off the nose. Pb

PB I think you're a genius! ;D

Well got to thinking tonight about what you'd said (above quote) and during a movie the wife and I were watching, it hit me, so when I got home, I put one in the cutting template and cut the base down a bit, turned it around and cut off the tip. Smaller portion off the tip.

Well a couple things became VERY obvious. First, there's no more doing the ogive on the lathe, so repeatability is WAAAY less of a problem.

Second, the nose is obviously longer and sleeker which has to bring the BC up (it does, more on that later).

Third, it's FASTER to do it this way, DUH! I'm glad I posted this project on here, cause sometimes we can't see the forrest for the trees, but you did.

OK I have lots of pics to show you guys and will try to explain as I go. I'm REALLY excited about the "new" design. I think we have a final design here that will do it all.

First, let me regress (and tease you guys a bit) earlier I mentioned my cutting template. This is the one I made from 3/4" aluminum bar stock. here's a pic of the one for the 270gr bullet (laying down) and the one for the 235gr bullet. On both, they are drilled to .378 and both have a 1/8" hole through the rear, to allow me to push them out after cutting. Mostly they fall out, but not always.

OK, next is the latest generation, cut like PB recommended, next to the version, I THOUGHT would be the easiest of all to make. by the way, the one on the left weighs 215gr and the new one (right) weighs 203.

Next, I have the previous two, next to the Sierra 200gr SP.

Next is what the new gen bullet, loaded, along side the previous generation. At first look, you'll notice the newer bullet, just plain looks better. In addition, due to the longer nose, it's seated down to the first pressure groove.

I haven't tried this in function, but will, and have no doubts about it working. If, by chance it DOESN'T

, I will post.

One last pic, since I mentioned my 223 case BUB bullet (butt ugly bullet) filled with no lead solder, here's a pic of it too. Keep in mind, this is a first prototype, with no real swaging done, so ogive is pretty much non existant.

Oh, yes, the BC of the new design, is .146. Not terrific, but better than the old one. Before you ask, the nose is better left empty in this design (I asked Barnes) to allow body fluids to fill the cavity, and force open the nose petals, which by the way, are left way more intact than the other designs.

Hope y'all enjoy.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:18 am

Well, it not only functions, but does it smoother. Oh, yes, also, I'd suspected this looked like a similar profile to the Speer 170gr flat point for the 30-30, and it's almost a perfect match. The Barnes bullet is about 1/16" longer, and larger dia, of course.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:22 am

Handi, I'm fairly sure that the Pb you are refering to is a good friend of mine from the 454 Forum, and you are in very fine company! Nice to see you around Pb, my old friend!

-Tutt

Pb, please Pm me and tell me how you are doing!

-Tutt

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:34 am

CowboyTutt wrote:Handi, I'm fairly sure that the Pb you are refering to is a good friend of mine from the 454 Forum, and you are in very fine company! Nice to see you around Pb, my old friend!

-Tutt

Pb, please Pm me and tell me how you are doing!

-Tutt

Well, he sure had a good idea. I sent him a PM from the marlin owners site for ya!

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:57 am

Thanks, Handi!

-Tutt

Kapincrunch · Post by **Kapincrunch** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:53 pm

Tutt,
I am Pb over on the Marlin Owners site. I couldnt get that name here because it was already taken. Apparently by your friend. Sorry to disappoint. Hope your friend his well

Pb or Kapincrunch or Jim

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:46 pm

Looking now, at the new design, I believe the same, or very close bullet weight, in a usable length, can be had by just cutting the nose off the 235gr, and reaming a small hollow point into it. The 235gr bullets are cheaper too.

I'm beginning to wonder, just how small of a hollow point I can get away with and still have it open.

Once I get a usable bullet stop made, I'll test them for opening at very slow velocities, trying to simulate a long range impact.

I'm thinking sub 38-55 starting loads, trying for 1000fps or less at impact.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:36 pm

Excellent concept. Congrats on your development!
It occurs to me that another way to get the weight off the tail end of that bullet is to try a boattail lathe turning. More work to go to than just cutting it off, but maybe, using the lathe, you could cut a bit less length, and then turn the corner off in a boattail shape, then nip that little bit off the nose? Might be noticeably more accurate, and it might even keep it's speed up better on the way.
Or is that too many steps?
If I were gonna try that tapering step, I'd make a cutting tool to mount in the spindle post of the lathe, that worked like a de-burring tool. After cutting off the back end, ya gotta smooth the corner, right? Why not smooth it right down to a boattail shape while your about it? Just leave the lathe turning and, with the de-burring tool in the spindle, turn the spindle in till the cutting tool bottoms on the bullet.
'Course, that's easier said than done, making a tool like that. Prolly have to use a case de-burring tool, sharpen the three cutters, and set in a depth stop in the center.
Still, if it seems doable to you, might just make it sweet accurate.

But there I go again, getting my brain's teeth into somebody else's project. You dun great so far! Keep it up, and post the data!

Gryphon

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:48 pm

Gryphon Black wrote:Excellent concept. Congrats on your development!
It occurs to me that another way to get the weight off the tail end of that bullet is to try a boattail lathe turning. More work to go to than just cutting it off, but maybe, using the lathe, you could cut a bit less length, and then turn the corner off in a boattail shape, then nip that little bit off the nose? Might be noticeably more accurate, and it might even keep it's speed up better on the way.
Or is that too many steps?
If I were gonna try that tapering step, I'd make a cutting tool to mount in the spindle post of the lathe, that worked like a de-burring tool. After cutting off the back end, ya gotta smooth the corner, right? Why not smooth it right down to a boattail shape while your about it? Just leave the lathe turning and, with the de-burring tool in the spindle, turn the spindle in till the cutting tool bottoms on the bullet.
'Course, that's easier said than done, making a tool like that. Prolly have to use a case de-burring tool, sharpen the three cutters, and set in a depth stop in the center.
Still, if it seems doable to you, might just make it sweet accurate.

But there I go again, getting my brain's teeth into somebody else's project. You dun great so far! Keep it up, and post the data!

Gryphon

Please do NOT missunderstand. This project is not just MY idea. It's a culmination of ideas and a need here in CA.

In a sense, I want to keep as much weight on the bullet as possible, BUT, the heavier bullets are getting long, and that takes up limited powder room in the case.

The BT idea IS a very good one, as that might free up some space. I've actually been in touch with one vendor about the "trimmer" idea, but I have not followed trhough with it to find out how much it would cost. Everything has a tradeoff in this project.

What I wish is that I'd kep some of the 235's untouched, till now, to see how the "new" generation would weigh in.

I believe the BC would go up quite a bit with a BT, but I think with a bullet like a modified 235 or MAYBE the 270 with a LE type bullet tip would be the best overall. but I feel it would end up at 180-190gr range, tops.

By all means keep the idea juices flowin'.

Barnes TSX for the 375 Win (updated)

Barnes TSX for the 375 Win (updated)

Update