1879: Sandy Hook tests, the .45-70 at two miles

[Ray Newman]

"The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, 'Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms,' had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.

"In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used.

"The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War."

Read all 'bout it:
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm

[piller]

The .45-70 is an amazingly accurate caliber. Billy Dixon was known to have made a fatal hit on a human at a paced off 1 mile during the Battle of Adobe Walls near present day Amarillo, Texas.

[Ray Newman]

Piller: from the sources that I ahve read, Dixon made the shot with a .50-90 Sharps. He claimed it was a "scratch" (lucky) shot and he aimed at a group --3 or 4 mounted indians.

[piller]

Could be. I read it as the .45-70, but the .50-90 and several other calibers were in common use at the time. Just hitting anything at that distance is amazing, and for the bullet to have the power remaining to be deadly is quite eye opening. I wouldn't be able to see well enough to even try such a shot. The old Sharps rifles and some of the others made during the 1800s were as accurate and well made as anything in use today.

[Ray Newman]

Pillar here's the quickest on-line link to Dixon that I could find:

“The outpost was attacked on June 27, 1874 by a band of 700 to 1200 Indians, and that is when Dixon went into the history books for firing The Shot of the Century which effectively ended the siege. Although, Billy Dixon states in his biography that it was a ‘scratch shot’, he is still honored to this day with competitions in England and the US which attempt to match his skill.

“The stand-off continued into a third day, when a group of Indians were noticed about a mile east of Adobe Walls. It is said that Dixon took aim with a quickly borrowed .50-90 Sharps (as, according to his biography, he only had a .45-90 Sharps and felt it could not reach) buffalo rifle and fired, knocking an Indian near Chief Quanah Parker off his horse almost a mile away on his third shot. The Indians then left the settlement alone."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Dixon
Italics added: rcN


According to the "Encyclopedia of Buffalo Hunters and Skinners", vol. I, p. 35 ff, Orlando "Brick" Bond said he was with Dixon when he made the shot and he used a .50-90.

Billy Dixon is mentioned in the “Encyclopedia” (pp 170-179), and that entry claims it was .50-90.

You are dead-nuts-on when you say that these old rifles are accurate, esp. when loaded with Black Powder and Paper Patched bullets. Definitely labor intensive to prepare the ammunition – esp. Paper Patched --, but the there is a great deal of satisfaction of shooting original rifles and reproductions as they were meant to be loaded.

[FatJackDurham]

You guys have hijacked the thread away from how amazingly awesome the Springfield Trapdoor rifles are! I cant wait to take a trip to some very long range with mine and see how it likes it!

I especially like the part about how the 500 grain bullet goes through three inches of wood and 8 inches of sand - AT 2500 yards!!!11

[FatJackDurham]

I thought it was interesting also that the faster twist increased the range.... I am curious about that. Obviously twist increases accurasy, but why would it add range? Maybe because it would be less likely to tumble and pick up drag?

I totally want to pickup an old trapdoor with a shot out barrel and rebarrel it in 18:1 to build the "Special Long Range" model described there-in.

[hightime]

You guys have hijacked the thread away from how amazingly awesome the Springfield Trapdoor rifles are! I cant wait to take a trip to some very long range with mine and see how it likes it!

I especially like the part about how the 500 grain bullet goes through three inches of wood and 8 inches of sand - AT 2500 yards!!!11

It's no wonder that heavy bullet coming down from outer space.

O

[gundownunder]

Obviously twist increases accuracy, but why would it add range?

My guess would be, more twist = more stability, more stability = longer range as an unstable bullet will shed velocity a lot faster.

[Ray Newman]

“I thought it was interesting also that the faster twist increased the range.... I am curious about that. Obviously twist increases accurasy, but why would it add range? Maybe because it would be less likely to tumble and pick up drag?”
-- FatJackDurham

The faster twist provided some additional stability to the then-new longer 500 grain and heavier bullets. In a nutshell, as opposed to a slow twist for a given caliber, the faster twist generally will better stabilize a longer and heavier bullet.

You mentioned building up a long range rifle. For awhile, I “campaigned” with my trapdoor infantry rifles. The load was the Lyman #457125 500 grain Government style round nose bullet and -- I believe -- 68 grains GOEX FFg powder. I found it was tiring and recoil felt excessive after about 30-35 + rounds shooting from the bench. Most likely, Fg powder ould have helped to "tame" the recoil a bit. I never tried the Lee 405 grain hollow based bullet, which is claimed to be a copy of the Government 405 grain bullet (http://leeprecision.com/mold-sc-459-405hb.html)

I did know a Fellow Shooter who had a Trapdoor infantry rifle re-barreled and re-chambered to accept the 2.4” case. That rifle was no fun to shoot.

As mentioned on page 76 ff. in Waite and Ernst “Trapdoor Springfield; the United States Springfield Single-Shot Rifle 1865 – 1893”, the Annual report of the Chief of Ordnance for fiscal year 1880, negatively noted the increased recoil with the heavier charges and additional weight for infantryman to carry (approx. 2lbs per 100 rounds).

The Waite and Ernst book has information to the various models of the Springfield Trapdoor Long Range rifles.

[harry]

If we ever get together I'll let you guys shoot my 45/70 TC contender rifle, I have a 27" barrel on it with 1-14" twist. It really likes the heavy stuff. I'll even teach you how to use the scope.

[FatJackDurham]

A scope.... golly....... What does it do?

I recently went through a load sizing on my newish Rolling Block in 45-70 and, yeah, it started to hurt. At least with my Trapdoor, the extra weight helps.

I'd probly just fire a couple rounds and declare victory.

[AJMD429]

Where'd you get the barrel for that...? It doesn't look like a 'stock item' from Thompson Center (nor does the forend).

[StephanieB]

If the bullseye was a couple feet off the ground, you could probably stand six feet in front of it and the bullet would pass over your head on its way to the bullseye.

[piller]

Stephanie, there are a lot of people who find rainbows beautiful. Even if they are just a trajectory.

[harry]

Where'd you get the barrel for that...? It doesn't look like a 'stock item' from Thompson Center (nor does the forend).
The barrel is a MGM and the forearm is from:
http://www.highplainsgunstocks.com/fore ... 20page.htm

[StephanieB]

Rainbows are pretty. But still, to hit a target with such a rifle at 2,500 yards, you'd have to know the range to the target to something like plus or minus two or three feet.

Something like if you've ever seen the ladder sights for an M1903-- look at the top range settings.

[Don McDowell]

If the bullseye was a couple feet off the ground, you could probably stand six feet in front of it and the bullet would pass over your head on its way to the bullseye.

Not unless you're only about 3ft tall.. The bullets do come in at about a 30* angle when the distance gets really long, but at a 1000 yds if the load you're shooting is working and the bullet is staying stable it will leave a nice concentric round hole in the target.
It's really neat at a long range shoot when the light conditions are just right, and you can see those bullets coming in thru the spotting scope, the trajectory isn't quite the "rainbow" that you might think.
Running targets in the pits at a Creedmoor bpcr match is a neat learning experience as well.

[Don McDowell]

If we ever get together I'll let you guys shoot my 45/70 TC contender rifle, I have a 27" barrel on it with 1-14" twist. It really likes the heavy stuff. I'll even teach you how to use the scope.

Yeh and if you are a good little fella we might let you shoot a real 45-70 and teach you how to use a real scope.

[StephanieB]

If the bullseye was a couple feet off the ground, you could probably stand six feet in front of it and the bullet would pass over your head on its way to the bullseye.

Not unless you're only about 3ft tall.. The bullets do come in at about a 30* angle when the distance gets really long, but at a 1000 yds if the load you're shooting is working and the bullet is staying stable it will leave a nice concentric round hole in the target.
It's really neat at a long range shoot when the light conditions are just right, and you can see those bullets coming in thru the spotting scope, the trajectory isn't quite the "rainbow" that you might think.
Running targets in the pits at a Creedmoor bpcr match is a neat learning experience as well.

According to this page, http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrang ... hook03.htm the Springfield long-range load cam in 50deg off the vertical. So from the horizontal axis, it came in at a 40deg angle. Since I don't remember the trig involved, I found this: http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html and I punched in 40deg for angle A and 3 for the height (figuring the bull is 3' off the ground).

According to that, if you're about 4' away from the target, the bullet would pass just over your head and hit the bull.

[Don McDowell]

Well best I can tell you is that from the long range shooting I've done if a bullet comes in at 40* it's probably starting to tumble.
At the recent Wasserburger mile they recoverd a bullet from a 50 caliber sharps that stuck in the target at about a 30 * angle.
If something was 4ft in front of this target at 1000 yds, it would probably be prostrate and bleeding profusely .

[Malamute]

True enough Don, though you're talking 1000 yards and the tests were at 2500 yards, 2 1/2 times the distance. There has to be pretty great difference in bullet angle of arrival between those distances. The Wasserburg shoot is still short of the 2500 yards by a bit.

[Don McDowell]

I'm guessing that even at the 2 miles of the Sandy Hook test you'ld best not to stand 4 or 6 or even 10 ft in front of the target, those bullets can still go clean thru a human body, and they won't be coming in at the angle some think. The bullet will be on a level flight path (assuming it has enough spin to stay stable) altho the angle of decent is rather steep.
One thing when you see those bullets coming in at 1000 yds, it looks for all the world like they are going to be low and then splat, right into the bullseye..
Working a target in the pits on a 1000 yd match, the bullets will still be impacting almost head high in the berm 25 yds behind the target..

[Malamute]

Yes, reading the test results, the 500 gr bullets were shooting through the backing boards and several inches into the sand. One that hit a post went in over 5 inches. Pretty remarkable the penetration ability at that distance.

[Don McDowell]

What surprises me is how little velocity those bullets actually loose once they pass the 1000 yd line.
At 1000 yds when those bullets hit the steel targets , all you get back is the button.. the rest is just dissolved lead splash.
It's amazing how sporting it can get in the pits when a shot goes low and starts throwing shrapnel around.

[Malamute]

Yeah, "sporting", good word!

[hightime]

I've never been able to reclaim any leadoff the gong or around it. They just vaporize from 650 yrds.

Owen

[Ray Newman]

Fat Jack Durham: you might find some interesting information and threads on the BPCR Trapdoor Rifles page --

http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=14