Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

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JohndeFresno
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Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by JohndeFresno »

In another thread, "Which boolits jam in Leverguns?" (http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=49522), I complained about Oregon Trail / Laser Cast 124 gr. round nose bullets not loading into a very popular, commonly sold American pistol: The Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm Compact (9c). It was new, out of the box and in perfect condition as expected.

Then, I sheepishly admitted that, upon closer inspection, my caliper was off. I have thrown it away. But note this: It was only off 4 thousandths of an inch - not 4/10 or even 4/100. It measured 1.130 when it was 1.134. That is next to nothing - it was NOT the significant problem causing my handgun to lock up like the proverbial Scotsman's purse.

The esteemed Terry Murbach stated that he has loaded Oregon Trail bullets into many pistols without problems. I would never have any reason to doubt what he says. But when I researched some Handloader articles, I noted that they, too, have loaded Oregon Trail. But definitely not using the COAL that Oregon Trail uses! I suspect that this was the case with Mr. Murbach, as well.

It would have had to be. Take a gander of the bullet as loaded to precise Oregon Trail specs (below) - 3.130 " COAL. As even Mr. Murbach noted, the shank is showing - the bullet is way too long NOT to be caught into the barrel leade as it leaves the ramp!

Image

LEFT TO RIGHT:
1) My first load, 1.134" COAL; Caliper error by 4/1000's of an inch
2) Oregon Trail specs, 1.130" (still jammed tightly);
3) Correct load, way below Oregon Trail listing, from Handloader Mag: 1.045"
Note that the ogive reaches to the case mouth; no shank showing.


I get it that one should fit the handload to the firearm. But for those of us who are now handloading for more than one firearm due to the ammunition shortage scandal, one should expect that a bullet will fit a reasonable amount of firearms using the data supplied by the bullet maker, especially when you have paid for their loading manual. After all factory ammo does! Laser Cast data is wrong for their 124 grain 9mm as loaded into guess what - semi-autos. We, uh, don't usually place the most emphasis on loadings for a less critical platform like a 9mm revolver!

Handloader Magazine Issue Nr 282, Feb/Mar 2013, Pg 57 says:
"When using the Oregon Trail Laser Cast 124-grain roundnose, due to its full-caliber, .356-inch shank, it should be seated to an overall length of 1.045 inches. If the shank is seated too far out of the case, it contacts the leade and prevents the cartridge from fully chambering.

Due to this rather deep-seating depth, powder charges must be used as outlined and cannot be
interchanged with bullets that seat to a longer overall cartridge length."

Loads given on the previous page of the magazine, for that round, show a COAL of 1.045" - considerably less than the expected 1.130" as shown in the Oregon Trail Manual, which (by the way) warns the reader "NEVER REDUCE STATED OVERALL LENGTHS" at the bottom
of each page.

The load range for one of my available powders, as found in the Handloader article, is:
Titegroup 1.045" (much deeper than Oregon Trail's suggestion)
2.2 gr. for 742 fps (Minimum)
2.8 gr. for 930 fps (Maximum)
I checked out the loads' potential to create pressure problems due to the deeper seating of the bullet. QuickLoad verified that this is not a compressed load and pressure is safely within SAAMI suggested limits for the 9mm Luger / 9mm Parabellum load.

Guess what - that bullet with 1.045" fit the S&W mentioned, without a hitch. It chambered again and again. The whole problem had been exacerbated when I called Oregon Trail to confirm their COAL. The lady on the phone, and then the person with whom she conferred, both insisted that this is what I should use. When I quoted other bullet overall lengths and stated that they were from load manuals using their specified bullet, I was told that "other companies aren't necessarily familiar with the formulation of our bullet" or words very close to that effect.

I was finally advised that this bullet won't work with the pistol I am using. Hmmm...500 bullets ending up to be completely useless. Thank goodness I proved them totally wrong.

As a footnote, my problem was not the only one, where Oregon Trail bullets with their specs created a locked up handgun. Other 9mm pistols that will not take this round using Oregon Trail specs are:
Kimber 1911
S&W 5906
Taurus PT917
This info is per one correspondent who started the thread, "Problem with Laser-Cast
9mm 124g RN" at:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthr ... ?p=3760511

I am sure that there are more out there. All you have to do is just look at the bullets above, as I did, and then as Mr. Murbach did, to conclude that the bullet is too long to load properly into a semi-auto chamber from the magazine.

So, I reiterate my gripe, and a warning to handloaders who use the Oregon Trail data or their book.

With the 9mm 124 grain bullet, and possibly others, you had better look elsewhere for your load data. Seat this bullet, at least, more deeply, taking care to also reduce the amount of propellant. Of course, one needs to use established, reliable data as a guideline. It is out there - in the Accurate loading manual, on LoadData.com, and elsewhere.

Oregon Trail bullets are top notch. But their technical support really let me down.
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El Chivo
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by El Chivo »

I want to crimp to the supplied groove or etch on the bullet, for consistency's sake with that bullet, and adjust powder accordingly. If it don't fit I'd look for a different bullet. I have one gun that doesn't accept a certain Lasercast. People have told me to just seat it deeper and crimp anywhere but that seems wrong.

What I have heard about with Lasercast and handguns is, due to the hardness, they can harm a revolver when they jump into the forcing cone. Something else might have been wrong with that revolver, since it ought to take jacketed bullets, but still, something to consider. Since the big advantage with Lasercast is you can use them to higher velocities, you might as well stick to softer lead for handgun shooting. I have also had leading when using them at low velocity; apparently the bullet base doesn't deform and seal the hot gases at low velocity.
"I'll tell you what living is. You get up when you feel like it. You fry yourself some eggs. You see what kind of a day it is."
JohndeFresno
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by JohndeFresno »

El Chivo,

Your procedure of finding the crimp groove usually works. These bullets have no crimp or etch mark.

As for the revolver not taking jacketed rounds, you must have misread something or else you were thinking of another thread. The S&W M&P 9mm is a pistol (not a revolver). And it loads quite well with jacketed rounds. I was trying to run hard lead through it for more economical practice.
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J Miller
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by J Miller »

I can tell you from personal experience that the phenomenon you have found with these 9 mm bullets is nothing new.
I've run into this with varying designs of .45 ACP bullets many times since I started shooting IPSC in the late 70s. The Lyman bullets are different from the Saeco bullets which are different from the RCBS bullets and on an on.
I've even run into different lots of cast bullets cast from the same brand and number of mold that were not the same shape.

It's a situation where you have to build the ammo to match the gun(s) you are shooting rather than the ones ( usually a Universal Test Receiver with a SAAMI spec test barrel ) the bullet maker or load developer is using.

Parallel bullet sides, ogive, nose shape, all contribute to the confusion.

MY method is to use standard loads from reputable developers and with the bullet first seated to fit my gun(s) I work up a factory equivalent load. I try to match the factory OAL if I can, but sometimes you cannot. I don't have ammo fit trouble.

I Have run into this many times in the last 40+ years in .45 ACP and have watched others run into this problem with other calibers as well.

Oregon trail uses their bullets in their test guns and set them up to their specs. If someone else uses a different gun they have to adjust it to suit their situation.

Bullet makers will usually not help much when you use their product in a manner they don't think will work. Even if and when it is proven that it does.

Been there, done that.

Joe
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Terry Murbach
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by Terry Murbach »

THIS IS ALL VERY INTERESTING AND WELL THOUGHT OUT. CAST BULLETS CAN VARY TO BEAT THE BAND AS JOSE THE MILLER KID MENTIONS. THE LOADER MUST DARN WELL BE ON HIS OWN FIGURING OUT HOW HIS CAST BULLETS ARE GOING TO WORK IN HIS GUNS.
THE FELLOW WHO NOTED THAT LASERCAST BULLETS WERE HARD AND COULD DAMAGE GUNS AS A RESULT SHOULD NOTE THAT THE HARDEST CAST BULLET IS AS SOFT AS BUBBLEGUM IN COMPARISON TO DANG NEAR ANY JACKETED BULLET.
RIDE, SHOOT STRAIGHT, AND SPEAK THE TRUTH
JohndeFresno
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by JohndeFresno »

Great follow-ups! Thank you, gentlemen.
3leggedturtle
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by 3leggedturtle »

I had some 158gr RFN that were supposed to be .358 diameter bullets I bought from a new source. Wouldn't seat in 357 cases without deforming nose and over half wouldn't chamber. Turns out they mic'ed almost .360 in diameter. Had to use my Lee push thru sizer with to size down so I didn't have to use up my jacketed stash. This took 3 weeks of head scratching, cleaning and adjusting dies, B4 I took a micrometer to them. Overlooking the simplest and easiest solution happen to the best of us.
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Griff
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by Griff »

3leggedturtle wrote:Overlooking the simplest and easiest solution happen to the best of us.
WOW! Is that an understatement, or what? :lol:

Just last week, my son was telling me that he wanted to do some more work on the "Parts Gun". It seems that at the 3-Gun match he'd attended, he'd had a number of FTF (feeds) with my "Parts 1911"... a gun that'd previously been what I'd consider "reliable". And after he rebuild it with new springs, re-fitting the slide and polishing the ramp and chamber, was just downright sweet! In fact, the next step was to send it out and get it refinished (Coated in a color(s) that'll hid well under a hawaiian shirt)! After asking which can of ammo he'd taken to the match and being told the one labeled "MISC", I told him that was good ammo, that it was just ammo that was different from my "normal" match or carry usage. It was a hodge-podge of misc jacketed and lead 200 grain .45 Auto. H&G68, Lead HPs, jacketed flying ashtrays, another semi-wadcutter slightly different than the H&G, plus a couple of 200 grain RN and RFN that I'd loaded up to test different bullet shapes in my 1911s, including that gun. After listening to him tell me all the things that it was, bullet shape, the ramp, chamber and my reloading, I asked him which magazines he'd taken. "The stainless ones," he said.

"Oh? The ones that'd failed the testing we put ALL the magazines thru last month, to make SURE we didn't use bad ones in a match!" Ok, so he wasn't the one doing the test firing, but he was the one that got handed each magazine after I'd run it thru one of my 45s (the newest one, as it was factory stock). While I only had 2 or 3 FTF with the stainless ones, what I wanted to find out more, was which wouldn't lock the slide back. HE was supposed to separate them. The good ones were in my match ammo can, the bad ones were in a little box to get new springs and followers!

Always fun diagnosing "issues!"
Griff,
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mikld
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by mikld »

Well, I like to fit my OAL to my gun (the OAL is bullet specific, meaning each bullet will have a different OAL). Plus, depending on the chamber, my OAL may or may not fit your gun. I use the plunk test and then measure the cartridge length, and use that length for that bullet no matter what the reloading manual says...
Mike
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JohndeFresno
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Re: Oregon Trail Load Data Concerns

Post by JohndeFresno »

mikld wrote:...I use the plunk test and then measure the cartridge length, and use that length for that bullet no matter what the reloading manual says...
Good hint.

That is what I ended up doing, to save time, with the S&W. I removed the barrel, put in a two different factory rounds to see exactly where they dropped into the chamber, and then sized a dummy Oregon Trail cartridge to make sure that the above mentioned OAL worked. Then I consulted loads with that OAL to find a safe range to start developing a load, then ran the specs in QuickLoad to see what the expected pressure would be.

I have had similar problems with cast .45 ACP loads, but I wasn't misled by some manual insisting that you don't change the COAL ( ! ). For these loads, I use that nifty extra .45 ACP cylinder from my Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt / ACP six-shooter, dropping in a dummy round before setting up the press.

It's a lot handier than trying to get the exact drop into the chamber to assure a fit with the Colt semi-auto barrel, and so far it works every time.
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