From a friend regarding Asiana crash

[olyinaz]

A retired U.S. Check Airman regarding the Asiana mishap:

After I retired from XXX as a Standards Captain on the (747) 400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, its a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.

One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I dont think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all got it and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.

We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.

This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce normal standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK. I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason. Like this Asiana crew, it didnt compute that you needed to be a 1000 AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldnt pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Xxxx was.

Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach. When he finally got his nerve up, he requested Radar Vectors to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then Cleared for the approach and he could have selected Exit Hold and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept. Of course, he failed to Extend the FAF and he couldnt understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was Hold at XYZ. Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).

This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!

The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just cant change 3000 years of culture.

The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. Its actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they dont trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea. But, they dont get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!

Finally, Ill get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.

Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250 after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800 after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real flight time or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, its the same only they get more inflated logbooks.

So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.

[FWiedner]

I've heard more than one news piece that stated that Asiana has one of the best safety records in the industry.

Maybe they've just got a good PR firm.

[piller]

I spoke with someone I know who is a pilot. What he said corresponds well with Olyinaz's post. I am not a pilot, so I have to trust the opinions of those who are.

[Thunder50]

Just a private pilot here. Not alot of hours. Saw the news about the crash and the video. Wife was wondering if they ran out of fuel. Told her, not likely, probably pilot error, and that I thought he might have been going too slow. She said the news reported the pilot had 10K hours, told her, didn't matter. That one "Oh Sh$%" erased all the great flying you had up to that date.

Reading the above post, its a wonder it hasn't happened more often. People get used to using electonic stuff and when the batteries die, they are in a world of hurt.

If you think otherwise, go to the grocery store, say your total is $10.25, hand the person a $20 bill, then after they punch that in the register, say "oh,wait, here, I have a quarter" and give it to them. They usually just freeze up because they can't do the math in their head and don't have a calculator handy.

Sad, that the two teenagers had to pay the price for the flight crews errors

[GonnePhishin]

olyinaz,

Thanks for the very interesting information. This is something the mainstreamliars would never dare report on.
Question: Just curious- In your opinion, would these type of training experiences also apply to the Japanese, Indian or other far east operators?

[Blaine]

"Pelosi" happens Even to old pros, as well as young'ins I thought I heard that one of the deceased was killed by being run over by a firetruck responding? Dang!!

[olyinaz]

olyinaz,

Thanks for the very interesting information. This is something the mainstreamliars would never dare report on.
Question: Just curious- In your opinion, would these type of training experiences also apply to the Japanese, Indian or other far east operators?

Absolutely it is true for any Asian carrier that is not employing 100% Western pilots. Arab as well. I think it was JAL who crashed an airliner in almost the exact same circumstances years ago at San Francisco (that Captain committed hari kari over the shame of it but don't look for that here - Koreans are not like that and like the Chinese will lie like wet sacks over it). I can tell you from training Japanese would-be airline pilots that they have major cultural issues working against them and as a result in general they are not as good or safe as U.S./Canadian, Northern European, and Australian/New Zealand (and El Al) major airline pilots. Period. And even in the U.S. the small regional carriers operating Regional Jets and turbo props have a terrible safety record as compared to the majors due to lack of experience, less capable aircraft, and safety cultures at the small carriers that can sometimes be less than ideal.

At the end of the day, this crash will likely prove again (the jury is still out after all) what has already been shown: Automation and the new generation of airliners can only save lousy pilots from themselves most of the time - not ALL of the time.

[olyinaz]

"Pelosi" happens Even to old pros, as well as young'ins

Sadly, I think that this will turn out to be pure incompetence. I don't like to say that, but that's my wager at this junction.

[Griff]

Practical application of book education is a skill set mastered only thru experience. In the years immediately following VN "boat people" immigration, a very common accident cause was the rear-ender. Where a VN immigrant was rear-ended while making a right turn into a parking lot. This was NOT related to any insurance fraud, just happenstance. After almost rear-ending an older VN gentleman in my squad, I puklled him over and attempted to get to the bottom of why he stopped in the middle of the street before turning into a store lot, no signal light or stop sign present. Finally, a city officer who was Vietnamese came along and translated. The old guy understood me quite well, but his accent was so thick I couldn't reciprocate. Finally after a lengthy conversation in Vietnamese, the young VN city cop turned to me and said, "chalk it up it to 'DWO', he doesn't understand why you think he was in the wrong, the CA Driving Manual is quite clear, '...a right turn is legal after full stop'!"

I started to explain, then the light bulb lit up and I just asked, "DWO?"

The city officer replied that this was, "...our abbreviation for 'driving while oriental' a cultural shift the older generation has trouble grappling with. Nuances and situational differences present serious misunderstandings" Having grown up in SoCal, knowing many 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation orientals in school, work & socially, who were as American as I, it was an introduction to a new culture. I left the yung officer to explain it all to "grandfather" and came away with a new ethnic slur and maybe an insight to culture clash.

But oriental drivers still scare me, let alone pilots!

[Griff]

But I didn't gain real empathy until I went to NZ for a family reunion. After the first few days, I'd gotten relatively comfortsble driving on the "wrong" side of the road. Until, on a two-lane road going from Wellington to Levin to visit a cousin who didn't make to the reunion, when I had a police car come up behind me with lights and siren! My instinct was to yield to the right, which I almost did! THAT would've put me into oncoming traffic! So I finally yielded to the left. And when they passed I got the dirtiest of looks from the officer in the psassnger seat! When he saw my cowboy hat and western shirt I'm sure I got one of those distainful "stupid, bloody Americans" remarks to the driver!

[6pt-sika]

Hmmmm I flew Korea Air in 2009 and actually enjoyed the flight . But after this Asianna thing I suspect my normal flight pattern will be via Emirates from Dullus to DuBai to Manila . All four of the Emirates flights I took hand what sounded like and American pilot !

In the past I had wanted to do Asianna or China something or other just so I could fly thru Bejieng , Shanghai and or Hong Kong . But after this Asianna fiasco I think I'll steer clear of all that !

This may even make me give I loathe to say it Delta a chance again .

[GonnePhishin]

olyinaz,
This has been an extremely interesting thread. I would have thought that the Japanese pilots would have been as well trained as those in the West, given their cultural pendent for perfection.

[olyinaz]

Olyinaz, This has been an extremely interesting thread. I would have thought that the Japanese pilots would have been as well trained as those in the West, given their cultural pendent for perfection.

I have seen a Japanese pilot calmly fly a perfect approach with amazing precision directly into a mountain. Why? He didn't know where he was and he sure as he11 wasn't going to tell anyone he didn't know where he was or ask for a vector or some sort of help! It's all fun and games in the simulator, but pilots who come from cultures that have the extremely troublesome "saving face" monkey on their backs have done this with alarming regularity out in the real world too.

Ross Aimer in this vid is an old friend of mine: http://www.today.com/video/today/52428245#52428245

A fellow I know at work was holding short #1 for take off as the Asiana jet crashed right in front of them - front row seats for the whole thing. The wrecked jumbo careened out of control several hundred feet in front of them and frankly I'm sure that for a few seconds they wondered if it was going to slam into them. His report as filed:

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On July 6, 2013 at approximately 1827Z I was the 747-400 relief F/O on flt 885 SFO-KIX. I was a witness to the Asiana Flt 214 accident. We had taxied to hold short of runway 28L at SFO on taxiway F, and were waiting to rectify a HAZMAT cargo issue as well as our final weights before we could run our before takeoff checklist and depart. As we waited on taxiway F heading East, just prior to the perpendicular holding area, all three pilots took notice of the Asiana 777 on short final. I noticed the aircraft looked low on glidepath and had a very high deck angle compared to what seemed “normal”. I then noticed at the apparent descent rate and closure to the runway environment the aircraft looked as though it was going to impact the approach lights mounted on piers in the SF Bay. The aircraft made a fairly drastic looking pull up in the last few feet and it appeared and sounded as if they had applied maximum thrust. However the descent path they were on continued and the thrust applied didn't appear to come soon enough to prevent impact. The tail cone and empennage of the 777 impacted the bulkhead seawall and departed the airplane and the main landing gear sheared off instantly. This created a long debris field along the arrival end of 28L, mostly along the right side of 28L. We saw the fuselage, largely intact, slide down the runway and out of view of our cockpit. We heard much confusion and quick instructions from SFO Tower and a few moments later heard an aircraft go around over the runway 28 complex. We realized within a few moments that we were apparently unharmed so I got on the PA and instructed everyone to remain seated and that we were safe.

We all acknowledged if we had been located between Runways 28R and 28L on taxiway F (As is very common. - Oly) we would have likely suffered damage to the right side aft section of our aircraft.

Approximately two minutes later I was looking out the left side cockpit windows and noticed movement on the right side of Runway 28L. Two survivors were stumbling but moving abeam the Runway “28L” marking on the North side of the runway. I saw one survivor stand up, walk a few feet, then appear to squat down. The other appeared to be a woman and was walking, then fell off to her side and remained on the ground until rescue personnel arrived. The Captain was on the radio and I told him to tell tower what I had seen, but I ended up taking the microphone instead of relaying through him. I told SFO tower that there appeared to be survivors on the right side of the runway and they needed to send assistance immediately. It seemed to take a very long time for vehicles and assistance to arrive for these victims. The survivors I saw were approximately 1000-1500' away from the fuselage and had apparently been ejected from the fuselage.

We made numerous PAs to the passengers telling them any information we had, which we acknowledged was going to change rapidly, and I left the cockpit to check on the flight attendants and the overall mood of the passengers, as I was the third pilot and not in a control seat. A couple of our flight attendants were shaken up but ALL were doing an outstanding and extremely professional job of handling the passenger's needs and providing calm comfort to them. One of the flight attendants contacted unaccompanied minors' parents to ensure them their children were safe and would be taken care of by our crew. Their demeanor and professionalism during this horrific event was noteworthy. I went to each cabin and spoke to the passengers asking if everyone was OK and if they needed any assistance, and gave them information personally, to include telling them what I saw from the cockpit. I also provided encouragement that we would be OK, we'd tell them everything we learn and to please relax and be patient and expect this is going to be a long wait. The passenger mood was concerned but generally calm. A few individuals were emotional as nearly every passenger on the left side of the aircraft saw the fuselage and debris field going over 100 knots past our aircraft only 300' away. By this point everyone had looked out the windows and could see the smoke plume from the 777. A number of passengers also noticed what I had seen with the survivors out near the end of 28L expressing concern that the rescue effort appeared slow for those individuals that had been separated from the airplane wreckage.

We ultimately had a tug come out and tow us back to the gate, doing a 3 point turn in the hold short area of 28L. We were towed to gate 101 where the passengers deplaned.

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Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you have it.

[GonnePhishin]

Wow, they sure are lucky that plane didn't slam into them. Wow

[samb]

Oly I thought to myself, I bet Oly knows one of those guys sitting in that 47, as I watched the news. I had ran one of our crews through prm sioa in the sim a couple weeks ago on the 28's in sfo. I thought wow that was a close call for those guys on the taxiway, i sure would like to know what they said as they watched that approach. Thanks for sharing the first hand accounts. Our crew was having a chat last night and they asked about what airline would you not fly on, my list is very close to yours.
Sam