38 cal. powered cyanide predator killer? Solved!

[rangerider7]

I was out at the ranch yesterday and notice one of our caves had gotten through the fence onto the adjoining ranch near our main barn. I started walking over to run it back over and notice it sniffing at something in the grass. I couldn't figure what it would be in the winter. All of the sudden it exploded. The calf jumped a few feet in the air then started to wobbling. By the time I got there it was in bad shape foaming at the mouth. I picked it up and took it back to the barn and flushed it's mouth out with a hose. It's real sick and I don't know if it will make it. I went back over to investigate the spot it happened. There was a booby trap kind of rig that fired a blast of cyanide from a 38 caliber brass if touched. What I would like to know if these are legal in Texas or your state and how long have they been around. Seems like a dangerous way to control the coyote population. Since our calf had wondered on to the adjoining ranch, I don't know if anything can be done about it. I will talk with the foreman he's a pretty good guy and see if we can work something out. I would appreciate any information or experience you have had with these rigs. RR7

[Blaine]

I'm glad that wasn't a grandchild....

[earlmck]

RR, that's some old technology -- I know they used to use that on coyotes here in Oregon but I don't think it's been done since the 70's. Too many unintended consequences, like your calf. Would have been the USDA -- APHIS folks using them though I don't think we called 'em APHIS back then.

[J35]

The government trapper's still use them once in a while, if it is what I think it is, it is called a M-44 cyanide gun, if it was a authorized person that set it they are supposed to post several signs in the immediate area .

In the old days a lot of valuable lion and bear, and stock dogs were killed by these, and that is why the posting of the signs came about.

If you go to the USDA animal damage control web site and search around you will see that they are still used along with 1080. Both were supposedly outlawed many years ago. Neither were ever made available to the public.

I posted a link a while Back on the Birds of Prey thread to show everyone how many Hawks and Falcons the USDA kills every year.

Good luck--- J

[Hagler]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M44_(cyanide_device)

The M44 cyanide device (also called a 'cyanide gun' or a 'cyanide trap') is used for the elimination of suspected livestock predators, such as coyotes blamed for the loss of profits. It lures predators with an attractive smell, often from a small piece of bait, then uses a spring to propel a dosage of sodium cyanide into the predator's mouth. The sodium cyanide combines with water in the mouth to produce poisonous cyanide gas.

[BigSky56]

RR Ive used them (M44's) they use to be issued to USDA & state ADC to control predators usually they have a a cotton ball on the end of them where you anoint with a lure for the target the animal bites on it and pulls and it fires a cyanide filled blank. Ive seen calves do alot of goofy things that older cattle wont do like chew on and eat plastic tarps and bale twine what they dont get into would surprise me. I wish you luck with the calf. danny

The first ones used a primer to fire the later ones use a spring. plus there a cone that goes around the bait that I dont believe a calf could get his mouth in and open and bite the bait to trigger it maybe the cone was removed. danny

[horsesoldier03]

I would suspect that with EPA and the laws of today, something like cyanide would be illegal to just place wrecklessly like that. I know I would be pretty upset if my neighbor was using it.

That being said, the old saying "Good Fences make Good Neighbors" holds true. I would make sure all my fences were tight so that it didnt happen twice. Hopefully no unsuspecting kid or adult will be the next victim!

[Rusty]

It might have been nice if they had told you they were setting them so you could be on the lookout

[AJMD429]

I never have been happy with 'booby-trap' type things that can wind up harming or killing what isn't the intended target. Unless there is a way to exclude uintended targets (especially humans), I don't think they should be allowed. And I'm not big on "laws" about every little thing, either!

[rangerider7]

I talked to my neighbor by phone last night. He knows nothing about it. He said he will send some hands out today to inspect the area for anymore. He suspects teenagers doing it for kicks. That means they could be from our side because it is so close to the main barn. He said if necessary he will have them ride over the entire ranch of 11,000 acres. The calf is up and eating so she looks better. A vet will come out today to take a look. I think he is right, some teenagers got a hold of some of these M44s and decided to try them out. I'm going back this afternoon and check out the rest of our place. I will keep you updated. I'm going to call each hunting family to see if they know anything and warn them about the consequences. Thanks for the info. RR7

[BigSky56]

RR if its a 38 special its called a coyote getter a 38 case with cyanide and a pinch of powder. A M44(44 cal dia capsule) is a spring plunger device that mechanically pushes the cyanide into the air both dont weather well because of moisture as the product cakes/ lumps up and doesnt disperse properly so my guess its not been there a long time. danny

[rangerider7]

Thanks BigSky56 for the info. RR7

[vancelw]

I was pretty sure any type of booby-trap sets are illegal in Texas now and had been for a long time. But. . .

Sodium cyanide is a restricted use pesticide. M-44 applicators must be trained and licensed by the Texas Department of Agriculture. Use of the M-44 is limited by 26 use restrictions set by the Environmental Protection Agency. The M-44 is relatively selective, easy to set, environmentally safe, of little risk to humans, and effective for coyote control if properly used and maintained.

http://agrilife.org/texnatwildlife/coyo ... g-coyotes/

I guess it's just illegal for "normal" people. I personally detest booby-traps and shooting from aircraft. If a person felt compelled to use cyanide, they should fix it to where livestock and kids won't get into it.

If a teenager found an m-44, did they also "find" the cyanide? I'm betting an adult set it, maybe even a "trained" person. No government employees could ever be idiots, huh?

[horsesoldier03]

I suspect that it was one of the ranch hands. The boss probably was unaware, but even if he was, he is probably smart enough to know that it is a controlled device and would not admit to setting it.

[rangerider7]

The vet thinks the calf will make it. I will be keeping a close eye on the neighboring ranch. If I see any cowboy "burring" anything he better be ready to hear the buzzing of a bullet above his head or prove he believes he's a cat. RR7

[BigSky56]

RR I'd get 2 or 3 of the antidote kits and keep them on hand for any of your people that might come in contact you can get them from your local livestock producers assoc. danny

[rangerider7]

BigSky, will do. Thanks RR7

[Don McDowell]

Strange that someone would set one of those cyanide guns so close to the property boundry without posting signs they are in use .
You don't suppose that there's maybe some problem dogs from your ranch that cross the fence to the neighbors is there?

[BigSky56]

Of the 21K to 25K coyotes taken with M44s each year in the USA half of them are taken in the state of Texas, you boys must have a coyote problem down there. The feds use a phos gold color marking dye other agencies use a phos yellow marking dye. there have been no injuries with the M44 save people's dogs there has been one death and a couple of injuries with the old 38 CG back in the 40,50 & 60's as the paper wad and tar sealant have poked out eyes it was outlawed in 1972 after the ban which was ended in 1974 the M44 was allowed to be used. half the time even the coyotes get away cause they side pull and the gas doesnt get them. It is a useful tool for stock produces, when you have stock spread out over alot of acreage you cant watch them 24/7. #1 rule is keep your dogs and kids off other peoples property especially if the kids cant read #2 rule dont poke at things you dont know about kinda like poking at dud ordnance you might get something in your eye. danny

[BAGTIC]

Post signs? What is that supposed to accomplish? My dogs can't read.

[Ironwood]

Back around 1970 there was a Government trapper using the 38 Coyote Getter in Polk County Texas. One of the darn things went off in the trapper's hand. He darn near lost his hand. I saw his hand when he said it was much better. If it was better I'm glad I didn't see it when it was bad!

[jnyork]

When I was about 10 years old or so, 1950ish, I went out in the juniper hills with my father to cut us a nice Christmas tree, we always used junipers for that. Anyway, we were wandering around looking for just the right one, I was maybe 50 feet away from my father when I stubbed my toe on one of those cartridge-fired ones, dang pellet came up and hit me under the bill of the cap. My father was almost hysterical with fear until he determined the pellet hadn't gone up my nose or in my mouth. It was a near thing, something that I always think about when out and about in the wild. I dont think they can use those on public land any more.

[shooter]

A good friend of the family was a government trapper up in Fannin County, Texas for years back in the 60's, 70's, and maybe even the very early 80's. He used to use the cyanide guns for coyotes. I don't know if they were the 38's or 44's, but I was under the impression both were outlawed now. Guess I was wrong.

[rangerider7]

I found out yesterday when one of the younger hunters came up to the lease. I asked him if he knew anything about cyanide killers. He gave me a shocked look and said "I forgot about that, what happened". He is working to become a Federal Game Warden. One of his fellow academy rookies father is a Federal Game Warden and the rookie had given him one of these old cyanide killers and showed him how to set it up. One day he and a friend decided to set one out across the fence and see if they heard it go off in the night. They forgot about it after awhile, they had been staying in the barn for a week, and went on home. He is a good young man and at one time was in the seminary and loves the outdoors. He ask me not to tell his father and since the calf is doing fine I consented. The young man is in his early twenties. I laid down the law to him but I think he already felt quite embarrassed about the whole thing; believe or not he has always been very responsible about things in the past. He said he put it on the neighbor's land because of the kids that are on our lease. We had a long talk and I feel better now that I know that was the only one. I called the foreman of the neighboring ranch and explained it all to him. He was a little upset but I told him I was sure it would never happen again and I would keep a close watch on things. He said he understood. We have a good working relationship. I feel sure he learned a good lesson about the dangers of these things and I learned more about cyanide killers. RR7

[2571]

You are a better man than I, RR7.

[FWiedner]

The story you just told:

A wannabe federal cop set a hidden and illegal trap to see what would happen next.

When it almost killed the neighbor's (your) livestock he begged you not to tell his Daddy.

You're a forgiving soul RR7. I suppose we all have to collect experience as we grow. Mistakes included.

I'd be a hypocrite if I condemned the fellow, but this far down the road I do recognize when a fella has f'd up.

It concerns me that this fellow wants to enforce the law.

[BC in TN]

There are multiple ways of looking at this.

The young man might become a better LE Officer because of this experience and the intelligent, reasonable manner in which RR handled this event.

I appreciate the reasonable teachers I've had.

[FWiedner]

There's no point in sticking it to the young fellow if there's no real damage done.

As I alluded to before, men become men through life experience, and a big part of that is learning from one's mistakes.

The calf is OK, and the guy did man-up and admit his fault.

If RR7 says he's OK, then he must be OK.

Only time will tell whether or not it was a learning experience on the way to building a better man, or a free pass for someone who maybe needed the other kind of experience.

[rangerider7]

As a retired football coach I hope that my experiences have made me a decent judge of character. He has gotten a little more venturesome in the 7 years that I have known him. I had noticed that when I started teaching in 1967 until when I retired in 1998 the student's maturity has went backwards. No telling what it is like today. The sophomores now act like 7th graders, the juniors act like 8th graders and seniors act like 9th graders. The problem is what the present day youth are exposed to is 10 times more explicit. That is not a good combination. They are not ready to bare the burden of their actions, as what the definition of an adult is to me. He ask me not to tell his dad because of his feelings for his dad. He didn't want his dad to be embarrassed by what he had carelessly done. He told me he would tell him himself and let what ever happens happen. I'm sure I will here an apology soon and what he did to his son to make an impression. They are a fine christian family and the son will turn out fine if not better than most. I am having problems with my 17 year old grandson. he is experimenting with drugs. I have talked with him a couple of times. He is in denial, a favorite ploy of kids today. I'm getting ready to talk with my son about how to approach the problem. I had 43 graduate hours of counselling courses in collage. They have come in handy through the years but there are no guarantees of results. wish me luck! RR7

[Rusty]

Rangerider, I'll be praying God gives you wisdom in how to deal with your grandson. When I was a LEO we had our own version of SCARED STRAIGHT. It took some doing to get some of the kids on the straight n narrow. It takes something different for some of them.