Reloading Practices That Seem Off-Kilter

[Griff]

Or is it me?

This started off with 2 questions, and devolved into a "will vs. will-not" argument on question 2: Tumbling Cast Bullets.

I still think that the tumbling or vibrating of loaded rounds is an unsafe practice. Convince me otherwise. As far as cleaning excess lube from a loaded round? A quick turn around a paper towel makes short work of this... if really needed at CAS velocities. I figure a dab of extra lube outside the case is likely to just decrease my potential for leading, why bother?

Real question is: Am I taking too hard a line?

[gundownunder]

Since I don't bother to tumble or vibrate either before or after loading I guess I'm with you.
If I get a case that looks or feels a bit grotty I will give it a polish with a scouring pad which brings it up like new.
If I notice an excess of lube on the outside of a loaded round I wipe it off with a rag.

There is a scientific reason for me employing this system of reloading, it causes me to expend less energy and therefore appeals to my lazy nature

[Charles]

I raised this same question on the Cast Boolits board a couple of months back and got a variety off opinions.

Some years back in San Antonio, Texas, I visited a commercial reloader who supplied reloaded/remanufactured ammo for practice to many police departments. The final step before boxing was to place them in a cement mixer with paper towels for a couple of hours. They were shoveled in and shoveled out.

I have heard the theory that too much repeat motion would cause the powder to be broken up and/or have their coating removed. The problem with this is that it is theory and nobody can come up with proof that it happens.

One the other side of the coin, there were a number of people who did this and checked their ammo for damage and there was none.

I still have not done this, but I intend to try it soon...well maybe anyway.

[AJMD429]

I'd think a primer-detonation very unlikely, but the vibration could cause shattering of powder, going to smaller granules and faster burn-rate. I've no documentation it actually has happened, but it would be my fear.

...and for what gain, in particular...?

[J Miller]

I know for a fact the both Remington and Winchester tumble their loaded ammo before packaging it. I've found tumbling media just like we use in the hollow points of .357 ammo and in the divot between the primer and case on lots of different calibers.
It's obvious not harmful when they do it.

I have on a couple occasions tumbled my own hand loaded ammo to remove the remains of case and bullet lube. I've never had a single problem from doing that.

However, I don't tumble my ammo as rule. As Griff said a quick wipe with a paper towel or rag gets the job done quickly.

Joe

[6pt-sika]

I'd think a primer-detonation very unlikely, but the vibration could cause shattering of powder, going to smaller granules and faster burn-rate. I've no documentation it actually has happened, but it would be my fear.

...and for what gain, in particular...?

Thats no different then powder charges from the manuals that say 100% or greater . When you seat the bullet you can literally hear it crushing some of the kernals of powder .

I load several bottle neck single shot cartridges to 100-110% case capacity and they all shoot well or I wouldn't use the load !

[claybob86]

I use the paper towel method. I've heard of tumbling loaded ammo, but would not be inclined to do it. However small the risk might be, it's unnecessary. Also, I don't want my ammo coated with abrasive dust from the tumbler which I would want to wipe off anyway, so why bother?

[yooper2]

I've never felt the need to tumble loaded ammo and don't really plan on doing so in the future. With tumble lubed bullets (which I just started testing in 38/357 and 44 specials) I will use a rag to wipe down the bullets after loading so they aren't as messy to handle but that's about it. Almost all of my rifle ammunition is paper patched these days besides that for my 270 so they sure ain't going to be run through a tumbler.

Eric

[guido4198]

I tumble mine in a "Thumbler's Tumbler". Slow rotation, using a bunch of strips of torn newspaper. Only takes a few minutes to clean'em up. Been using this technique on my "bulk" cast bullet pistol rounds .380, .38 spec.,9mm,.41 mag,.45acp for several decades now...never had a problem.

[foxtrapper]

Why tumble loaded rounds in the first place? I have a Dillon case cleaner , here's my technique Dump fired brass into Dillon run till I feel they are clean enough. I then lube and resize - decap. Back into the Dillon for a few minutes to clean lube off. Now comes case inspection with paperclip in hand to remove any media from primer pocket. Load and enjoy

[M. M. Wright]

I have tumbled, (vibrated) my CAS loads but usually just wipe them down. Don't want any excess lube inside my magazine tube to crud things up or I wouldn't bother.

[Shrapnel]

I use a Lyman vibrator and clean all my cartridges after reloading. I do it for all my calibers and load 10's of thousands of rounds and vibrate them all. If I wiped every case, I wouldn't have time to shoot them. They are clean and factory fresh looking with no lube or grit that fowls a chamber. Vibrating over the years has worked great in my reloading factory...

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I've vibrated many thousands of rounds of surplus M855 to clean them up. Seem to do no harm.

[Griff]

Here are the two responses I've received to my queries from powder and ammo manufacturers:

The danger I see is that the tumbling could cause the powder to be damaged and begin to break apart. The danger here is that the extra debris from the powder decreases the amount of volume available in the case and creates an overpressure situation when fired.

A few years back there were several lots of foreign surplus .50BMG that had been tumbled to clean the cases. The results were several catastrophic malfunctions.

We do not tumble any of our loaded ammunition and do not recommend it.

And yesterday's reply:

Dennis,
It is impossible to activate/ignite modern smokeless powder by means of a slow tumbling action or vibration especially in the confined spaces of a loaded round which allows for very limited displacement.
During the actual manufacturing process the powders are vibrated and tumbled in blenders and mixers for extended periods.
These benders are large typical sweetie blenders (same that is used to coat sweets) where the powder tumbles with much greater force than what would occur inside a loaded round.
Modern smokeless powders are very resilient in its construction.
Since it’s covered in graphite it’s extremely slippery and the abrasive effects of tumbling will be negligible.

However when it comes to a loaded round another very sensitive component is involved.
That is the primer, which contains an extremely brittle highly sensitive composition.
Although there have been reported cases of rounds going off in such devices it’s extremely rare.
The highest probable cause is the primer being activated either internally, when the composition was fractured, either due to vibration or the primer being struck by an outside/adjacent object such as another round or some tumbling material?
The term detonation is also misplaced as it will be a normal deflagration resulting in a burst round same what will happen if you throw a round in a fire, which results in a low pressure limited by the strength of the unsupported brass case.

Due to the unknown effects on the primer it is therefore generally not advised to tumble or vibrate loaded ammunition.

I hope this clarifies the issue.

I recognize that they don't simply say, "don't do it." And, I cannot say that I've never done it. But, it's not a practice I've done more than possibly twice, and the results weren't very satifactory (lead bullets). For my pistol calibers I have carbide dies, so lubing them is overkill. And lube in the bullet grooves isn't something that I get too sloppy with, (well... except for my BP bullets), but a quick wipe on the bottom with a paper towel and they're good to go. With jacketed it's a non-issue, and for rifle rounds, no lubes except what's on the case, and if I used too much in the sizing operation, I just toss the sized cases back in the tumbler for an hour; then load. There's ALWAYS something that I can be doing while that's being done!

[COSteve]

A few years ago on AR15.com someone did an extensive test on tumbling loaded ammo. He took lots of closeup pictures of the powder, both ball and stick types, before he loaded the ammo, chrono'd it and also did accuracy testing. Then, at various lengths of tumbling, he'd pull some of the rounds and take another batch of closeup pictures of the powder. Some rounds he tumbled in excess of 200 hrs! Then he chrono'd and test fired the different lots.

Both his before and after pictures and his chrono and accuracy testing dramatically showed that even after hundreds of hours tumbling, the powder showed no visible changes at all and his chrono results and accuracy testing showed no changes either. For me, that put the issue of damaging his powder by tumbling it to bed as another internet myth.

[rbertalotto]

About ten years ago I did a huge test on this. I tumbled hundreds of loaded 6BR rounds and then shot them over an Ohler Cronograph to see if I could see any difference in velocity betyween tumbled and non-tumbled because the "retardant" had been rubbed off the powder........

Findings? Zero difference.

Think about it. Powder is shipped in jars and cans that leave a bunch of space and then loaded on trucks with rock hard suspensions and driven thousands of miles over Americas finest roads............And you don't think the powder is being "tumbled".............

[Chuck 100 yd]

I don't.

[Griff]

I received one additional response. From Alliant powder:

We have conducted no studies concerning the effect of tumbling ammo. We are aware that some ammo companies do this. I have no information as to their method of tumbling or the duration. Therefore, we have no information to share. Based on this, as a precautionary measure, we do not recommend it. Personally, I see no reason to do it because there is really nothing to be gained other than the ammo looking good. We have on occasion been on some shooting forums and have seen how subjects can be tossed around and often times get heated. Therefore, we stay away because most often it is time wasted. Egos too often get in the way of civil discussion. If someone wants to tumble their ammo, let them. I have enough caution in my nature to keep me from doing so.
Thanks for your note.

So, my question has been answered... "it's just me." However, it reminded me of the exact reasoning behind why I was advised not to use this practice.

The logic of this advise, so many years ago is as follows... A natural law of physics states is that a substance will burn on all its surfaces if an oxygen source is present. Ergo, if you break a grain of powder, you've just added two additional surfaces to burn, & if other flammable substances are any indication, your powder will be consumed faster. That equates to a faster spike in pressure. A huge negative in my mind.

That is, of course, predicated on the assumption that you can break granules of powder by tumbling them (IF the powder can be broken apart, and that may be a larger "IF" than I'm aware of...) As shown by at least one of the responses I received, that is not necessarily a good assumption. So with that, I'll take the advice from the last response I received. If someone wants to tumble their ammo, ok by me. I have enough caution in my nature to keep me from doing so.

[KirkD]

Might be interesting to tumble and chronograph with different kinds of powders and less than capacity loads. Modern cartridges have little if any space for powder to move around. Smokeless loads in BP cartridges may have plenty of room to move around.

[JB]

I've tumbled a few old loaded rounds just to clean them up for display. I've never had any fear of one going off. I've never bother to tumble any live rounds I actually intended to shoot though.

[J Miller]

I know for a fact the both Remington and Winchester tumble their loaded ammo before packaging it. I've found tumbling media just like we use in the hollow points of .357 ammo and in the divot between the primer and case on lots of different calibers.
It's obvious not harmful when they do it.

I have on a couple occasions tumbled my own hand loaded ammo to remove the remains of case and bullet lube. I've never had a single problem from doing that.

However, I don't tumble my ammo as rule. As Griff said a quick wipe with a paper towel or rag gets the job done quickly.

Joe

Some of the ammo I ran through the vibratory tumbler was .45 Colt. IIRC loaded with Unique.
When fired there was no detectable difference from non tumbled ammo. I do not think tumbling hurts the powder one bit. If it did those manufacturers that tumble their ammo would not do so.

Joe