I need some schoolin on SAA clones

[fordwannabe]

Hi All, I am in the research phase of a possible purchase with some of my tax refund. I held an original colts SAA this weekend and a couple of Vaqueros, not even close. The rugers are almost as heavy as my blackhawk. I need people to give me the skinny on who makes the most original in size and feel to the original.....and what kinda money they go for.
Any and all help greatly appreciated.
Ph yeah 45 colt

[rbertalotto]

The "New" Model Vaquero by Ruger (not the Old Model Vaquero) is nearly the identical size and feel to a Colt. But it is a much more durable gun. If you are simply going to be plinking with it, a Colt or an Italian clone would be fine. But if you are using it for Cowboy Actio Shooting, The Ruger will hold up much better.

The Italian manufacturers make SAA clones under a couple dozen names. Most of them come out of the Uberti factory.

I'd suggest a great place to get tons of info is;

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php
http://sassnet.com/forums/
http://singleactions.proboards.com/inde ... estthreads

[Rube Burrows]

If you want an more closely modeled Colt style SAA then go with Uberti. I personally like the Taylor's and Co. Smoke Wagon made by Uberti.

The Rugers are more safe if you want to carry 6 rounds since they have the transfer bar in them. They can also take a stronger load. You will see in your load manual sometimes it will say RUGER only loads.

[gak]

If you want an more closely modeled Colt style SAA then go with Uberti. I personally like the Taylor's and Co. Smoke Wagon made by Uberti.

The Rugers are more safe if you want to carry 6 rounds since they have the transfer bar in them. They can also take a stronger load. You will see in your load manual sometimes it will say RUGER only loads.

Though some folks' gut feeling is even the New Vaquero will shoot stronger loads (than those of the SAA design)--and indeed its internals likely stand up to more/longer abuse--it's close enough to say they'll all shoot and are spec'd/recommended to the same level. Only the full size "original" Vaquero--in .45--will shoot "Ruger Only" loads safely.(And of course the full size .44 Mag Vaquero will shoot virtually anything. Operationally, the "old" Vaquero is just a fixed sight Blackhawk. .357? take your pick. They'll all shoot hot loads, and the midframe (SAA-size) guns are all that most folks really "need" in that cartridge, ...of course the larger/heavier framed guns not only absorbing recoil better but likely holding up to consistent/long-term abuse better. All depends what you want and what compromises you're willing to make one way or the other. Sounds like handiness and faithfulness to SAA look and feel trump mega-load capability.

I'll +1 the New Vaquero if you're satisfied that the look and overall feel meet you SAA criteria, but would appreciate an even more rugged action. The cocking feel is different, and to some that's a clincher for the "5" shot SAA and its most faithful immitators. So for fondling/admiring, the SAA hands down. But, that's why I have both! Change my mind every other day.

EDIT: Beware. Unbelievably, even Ruger and its distributors have taken to calling the midframe New Vaquero just "Vaquero" in their literature and ads. AND, they're actually labeling the .44 Special New Vaqueros just "Vaquero" on the frame. SO, other than that .44 Special anomaly, TO DATE, if it says just Vaquero ON THE GUN, its the original, old, large frame Vaquero, discontinued as a catalog item in favor of the New Vaqueros ca 2004/2005. Since then there have been and occasionally still are "special" runs" of the large Vaquero sold through selected distributors.

The differences between the newer midframe and older large frame design are not readily apparent to those "not in the know"--so always ask "which one is it?"

[Rube Burrows]

When I was saying that I was thinking NEW Vaquero but didnt say I suppose. The Vaquero and the New Vaquero will both handle the hotter loads.

[Hobie]

When I was saying that I was thinking NEW Vaquero but didnt say I suppose. The Vaquero and the New Vaquero will both handle the hotter loads.

The Ruger only loads are ONLY for the Vaquero (some call it the old Vaquero to differentiate it from the New Vaquero). While the New Vaquero is stronger, likely, than the Colts and similarly dimensioned clones, it is NOT the Super Blackhawk frame. The .45 Colt 35K psi loads should not be used in the NV or other Ruger revolvers of that frame size.

As to which is which... How much do you want to spend? Can't get a Colt, get a USFA, a NV, or a Uberti of some form or another in about that order. A lot of your choice depends on budget and then personal preference.

[rbertalotto]

Hey GAK,

Great post. Very helpful to someone trying to figure all this out!

[Rube Burrows]

When I was saying that I was thinking NEW Vaquero but didnt say I suppose. The Vaquero and the New Vaquero will both handle the hotter loads.

The Ruger only loads are ONLY for the Vaquero (some call it the old Vaquero to differentiate it from the New Vaquero). While the New Vaquero is stronger, likely, than the Colts and similarly dimensioned clones, it is NOT the Super Blackhawk frame. The .45 Colt 35K psi loads should not be used in the NV or other Ruger revolvers of that frame size.

As to which is which... How much do you want to spend? Can't get a Colt, get a USFA, a NV, or a Uberti of some form or another in about that order. A lot of your choice depends on budget and then personal preference.

Thanks for the info. I knew that the New Vaquero was not on par with the Blackhawk frame but I was under the impression that the Ruger only loads were okay for the New Vaquero also.

I dont really up my loads for those. I use the New Vaquero for cowboy shooting. I use the Super Blackhawk and Redhawks for my more stout hunting loads.

[Griff]

...who makes the most original in size and feel to the original.....and what kinda money they go for.
Any and all help greatly appreciated.
Ph yeah 45 colt

That'd be Colt's Manufacturing: Their SAA (Single Action Army model). I'd plan on about $12-1500 retail at a dealer that'll actually do some dealin'.

As for copies, or even close copies thereof: We've had several threads on this and, in descending order of desirabiliy:
Freedom Arms
STI
USFA
Ruger "New Vaquero",
then, any of the rest. That particular order is my own list... but it might vary depending on the intended use of the gun.

Among those most disliked are the Colt "Cowboy", Taurus "Gaucho" and a couple of other import copies with a transfer bar in them. Despised would be my adjective.

Regarding the FAs & STIs, they're in a class by themselves, and not for the casual SA afficionado, expensive, rugged and at the top of the ladder in SA platforms. IMO, better guns than the original Colt's that inspired them. The USFA is a well made copy, also as good or better than the original in all but one important aspect, value/resale.

Let me warn ya, for price, the Ruger New Vaquero is a fine gun, rugged as all get out... but... and it's a big'un; due to the physical size, don't, I repeat, DO NOT use loads designated "Ruger Only" in them. They do not have the meat in the frame or cylinder their older and larger cousins the Vaquero and Blackhawk have. And while many adore them, there are some idiosyncracies in them due to the transfer bar that makes their action a bit different in feel and smoothness from the Colt. With a good action job, they're wonderful and for all but the most discerning, indistinguishable from a Colt. (Yeah, right)!

For bottom line price (in areas, for not all dealers are equal in their pricing and discounting), you won't go wrong with one of the premium imports from either Cimmarron or Taylor's. Both the Evil Roy's and Smoke Wagons are good guns. The Evil Roy's have one feature I'm not fond of, and have seen problems with them... But, it's a simple fix, and you'll never know the difference from a handling and performance standpoint. The ERs use a leather spacer under the hammer spring. This tends to dry, or get smashed flat from age, use and/or heat. The hammer spring then gets loose, and soft primer strikes and failures to fire result. I've had some "words" with Evil Roy about this, but he's adamant that what was good for the gunfighters in the 19th century still makes sense today. I disagree. Now, he might be a far better shooter than I, and his accolades exceed mine greatly. But... I KNOW what works, day in, day out, reliably, and as one who carries for personal protection, I'll stack up my six-guns against his any day, all day, all week, month and year-in, year-out. All it takes is to remove that little leather washer and replace it with a (I prefer stainless) steel lockwasher; between the spring and the grip frame, not the screw and spring. The one thing I do with my single actions that NO other tuner or spring maker does is that I polish the spring. I want all sides of that spring as smooth and shiney as possible. This eliminates those tiny imperfections in the steel where cracks and breaks start. I broke 3 mainsprings after they were lightened before I started doing this. The 1st one I did was in my gun from 1993 to 2007 when it was replaced by the gentleman that rebuild the gun from the ground up. He sent the spring back as it was still perfect (he said), and it's now a spare for the one in the other Colt. The spring in that Colt has been in there since 1993, and still going... I've not heard of a thinned or trimmed Colt mainspring lasting that long. I haven't seen the Wolff spring set, so don't know what theirs looks like. If it's a spring that is manufactured to the accepted profile for light action tuneups on Colts, well... it should last a long time also. But, springs that are ground down to reprofile them, well, longevity is not their strong suit!

Both Uberti & Pietta make excellent copies of the Colt Peacemaker. And with different versions of their product, you'll get different quality levels. I believe that Nate feels the EMF Great Western II by Pietta is the best and closest copy of the Colt with excellent quality. I can't disagree. In fact, I've been handed one, and without looking at the stamping on the barrel, it was darned hard to tell the different by feel alone. However, if you know the sound a Colt makes, I haven't found an import that matches that same sound. I don't mean the click, click, click of the lockwork, I mean the actual pitch of the steel resonating when it makes those clicks.

One of the most important features of some of the new clones that I think is an important improvement over the originals is a coil spring and plunger ibn place of the "flat" spring of the Colt's.

Let me conclude that as you drop down in price from the ERs, Smokewagons, GWIIs, you'll find the quality degrades also. I've seen rougher machining and less attention to the little details that make for a fine gun.

I ain't an expert, don't have the wins in cowboy shooting to lend credit to my opinions, but I've played with these guns for almost 40 years, listened intently to others opinions and many, many gunsmiths and even more shooters; filtered out the cow manure, paid attention to my own experiences and have developed a pretty clear idea of what makes these guns tick, and what doesn't. Opinions are like derrierres, some big, some small; but, in the final analysis, some stink worse than others.

YMMV.

[fordwannabe]

Thanks for all the good info. My purpose for the gun....I don't own one and should. I have a couple sigle actions but blackhawks,and a ss. I think these are like 30-30's everyone should have one and I don't. As A matter of fact, and I may get thrown out of here for this< I have never had a 45 colt, that I can recall. I want one, won't be doing CAS, prolly won't use it for hunting, just for having..as a Great American once said
BECAUSE I CAN.
Thanks again and keep it coming. Tom

[Ray Newman]

At the SHOT Shows, I always handled and examined the Colt and its clones.

From what I observed and from talking to US Firearms shooters, the SSA made by US Firearms are equal to and exceed the quality of the Colts.

It all depends upon how much $$ want to spend or can afford to spend.

I have a Colt and a Ruger New Model Vaquero. I enjoy shooting the Vaquero, but it is not a Colt.

For those not framiliar with the manufacturer:
www.usfirearms.com/

[Lefty Dude]

Only a Colt will hold it's value in $$$$$.

All other's a wannabee's, BTW.

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Hobie]

The Ruger Vaqueros can be confusing. First came the Blackhawks and this was all on the larger frame but folks wanted a fixed sight gun for the CAS game. So Ruger did that, but those pistolas are bigger than the Colt SAs and people wanted guns the SA size so Ruger did that on the 50th Anniversary FT frame and called them New Vaqueros. THEN they apparently didn't mark some (all newer production?) as the New Vaquero but as Vaquero. They were never the New Model Vaquero although they are a new model Vaquero. It will make your head spin.

[rossim92]

i have a taylor smokewagon in .357 magnum with a 5.5" inch barrel with wooden grips. It does not have a transfer bar safety, but does have the four click hammer to satisfy so call safety requirements.I love it and rolls nicely in palm when shooting. No palm "bite". very nice gun for the money.

[Griff]

Something else to consider. If you're looking for a clone of the 1st Colt issued then neither Colt or Ruger make one. I'm partial to them and I got a 357mag Uberti Cattleman. The original configuration, a 7.5" barrel, case hardened frame, blued barrel, blued cylinder, blued backstrap, and wood grips, looks like this. I'd recommend that you look at Able's or Buffalo Arms for some decent prices.

Actually Steve, the above picture is NOT of a clone of the original configuration Colt SAA. And Colt will make you one with those features thru their Custom Shop. The thru pin cylinder pin retainer wasn't introduced until 1894 on the Bisley model and other models in 1896. The crescent ejector wasn't seen until 1881 with a subsequent change to a flat oval in 1887. Prior to 1876 the edge of the cylilnder bevel was rounded and they met in the bottom of the flute, from 1876 to 1904 the bevel didn't meet in the flute, and from 1905 to 1940 the bevel was absent. The longer bolt guides on the cylinder didn't appear until 1896, were short from 1874 to 1895 and were absent in 1873-1874.

If you're going to talk "vintage" Colt, get a copy of Colt Peacemaker Yearly Variations by Keith Cochran.

Here are a couple BP era Colt clones from EMF, one each by Armi San Marco and Uberti:


These have some of the features of the early guns, but also some of the later features where those enhance performance, like the longer locking bolt guides on the cylinders. I don't think any of the clone manufacturers currently offers a BP frame clone. I could be mistaken tho'.

USFA also has a BP frame available, (or they did).

[Streetstar]

A USFA Rodeo is a cost effective Colt "clone" --- They may not look the most impressive when new, (no case colors and they are done in a matte finish), but i saw one a fella took some wd-40 and steel wool to, and added some one pice aged walnut grips --- and the brand new revolver looked 75 years old (in a good way) --- very cool and i wish i had a pic -- around $600 bucks at the time

[pokey]

the brand new revolver looked 75 years old (in a good way) --- very cool and i wish i had a pic -- around $600 bucks at the time

like this one?

antiqued-rodeo.jpg

from here,

http://singleactions.proboards.com/inde ... 085&page=1

[Old Savage]

I call this one Plum Blue because the frame is plum and the rest is blue. Has the firing pin in the frame so can hold six. It is a Rough Rider Big Bore from Heritage with the parts made by Pietta. Very tight and works well. all surfaces mate well. Worth a look I would say by not an exact replica due to the frame mounted firing pin. I like it.

[COSteve]

Griff, you're right of course as mine is a Cattleman 'new model' but they do make a Cattleman 'old model' with the features you mention. My point was more that while many of the posts were talking about 'feel' of the pistols, I wanted to interject that the 'look' of them was distinct i.e. the SA Cavalry Model - 7.5" barrel, case hardened frame, blued barrel, blued cylinder, blued backstrap, and wood grips and later the SAA Army Model - 5.5" barrel, case hardened frame, blued barrel, blued cylinder, blued backstrap, and wood grips.

Neither Ruger nor Colt offer that configuration as their stock items. I'm sure that for the right price Colt will make you one but the OP specifically asked about clones, not Colts. Also, many manufacturers make a brass framed version of the above and to my knowledge, Colt never produced a 1873 with a brass frame. Further, the transfer bar versions don't have a firing pin in the hammer while the original Colt did as you can see in the picture above while Uberti's Cattleman does. Yes, you can argue about the 5 rds vs 6 rds with the original version but the fact is that the pistols were carried with the firing pin on the hammer and 6 rds in the cylinder for decades. I guess that the older folks were just inherently more safe than modern man.

[Shrapnel]

Colt is the best copy of a Colt. Anything else just a copy and once you have the Colt you won't regret it. Eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, quit smoking and drinking, and save that money to get the Colt and then go and shoot it. The Myth of how weak Colts are is just that...a myth. I have 7 Colt's , 4 are first generation, 1 second and 2 third, they all get shot and shot quite a bit with no breakage problems. If they had a stage in Cowboy Action where you needed to throw your gun, then maybe a Ruger would be a good choice, otherwise get the real thing and realize why nothing else is a Colt...

[Old Savage]

I have had a dozen Colt Single Actions but only a couple now. I wanted the clone to shoot and not be concerned about it. I shot all the Colt's but why not have both.

Steve in the old days if you shot yourself you were just and idiot and laughed at as opposed to now. I suppose you could have carried it with the hammer down between cartridges like the BP models. No?

I like the firing pin in the frame like my K22.

[rbertalotto]

A few more examples for comments:

[COSteve]

I agree that the 1 click safety feature is not the best, I'm just saying that it's the configuration that most resembles the original Colt and he asked for a Colt SAA (5.5" bbl) clone, not a real Colt.

[Old Savage]

Gotcha Steve, I just throw in what I know that may be a consideration for those that care to consider. You know - thinking outside the bubble. It is not a box you know.

[Griff]

If they had a stage in Cowboy Action where you needed to throw your gun, then maybe a Ruger would be a good choice...

That was funny!

I actually shot a stage where the instructions read: "hit the last target with your pistol." Shootin' a C&B revolver... I fired my 5th round... missed... capped the 6th... missed again! Ran up and smacked the target with the butt of my 1851 Colt! Then protested the stage as NO ONE else shot it according the directions!

Aye Steve, I kinda figured that. I also, sorta hate the copies with brass trigger guards and backstraps... (although I do own one)

[J Miller]

Colt copies are just that, copies. They run the gamut from junk to excellent with most of them in the middle some where. Uberties are in my opinion the most consistent of the bunch with the far majority of their guns in the good category.
I've had three and still have one. Although the one I have now is a parts gun it has given me zero problems since it's rebuild.

Griffs novel above is so concise I won't try to duplicate what he said. All I will say to the OP is try to physically look at as many different examples as you can before you buy. But in order to learn what you like you will have to buy one. If you like it, keep it. If you don't trade it for a different one. That's how I learned.

Transfer bar guns are one of two things; they are either a solution for those who just have to carry their single action revolvers with six rounds and want to do it safely, or they are a crutch for those who can't or won't grasp the concept of learning how to load and index the cylinder to put the empty chamber under the hammer.

Griff and I agree on another thing too, brass grip frames on cartridge revolvers. I don't like them either. IJ, my Uberti Cattleman came with a brass grip frame / trigger guard. I didn't like it back in 75 but there was no option to fix it.
When it was rebuilt again it had the brass grip frame. But this time I did fix it.
From:

To:

The steel grip frame changed his entire personality.


Colt SAAs; oh how badly I've wanted one. Never have been able to put cash together to buy one. Always seems to be something getting in the way. Maybe someday. And when I do get one I will shoot it. Never did buy into that "the Colt SAA is a week gun" legend.

Joe

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Well, I know this is probably not exactly what he's after but since he's splurging with a little of his refund money he might also consider one of these in the $1500 range.

Turnbull Open Range Remaining Inventory

I suspect they are going to be as close to the original guns in regard to operation, fit, and finish as one could reasonably get. I believe these are all in .45 Colt with 4.75" and 5.5" barrels.

[pwl44m]

Every issue of Shotgun News, Colt SAA- $1199 and up, new in box from Colt custom shop.
Perry

[hightime]

I'm enjoying the read ,but for now at least I don't care if my clones are slightly different. I can't feel the $800 differance. I must not be that sensitive. Or my money is harder to get.

Owen

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

My perspective on the various SAA's is from a gunsmiths view. Not what they cost or how well they retain their value. Purely from the mechanical perspective.

This is a moot point if you are a casual shooter, not a competitor that shoots thousand of rounds a month.
If you are that competitor and want tuff out of the box, Ruger is the way to go, but I don`t consider it to be a clone. The ruger lock works were designed in the 1950's. It is nothing like the colt style lock basically unchanged since 1836.

Comparing Rugers to a colt SAA or Colt SAA clone is like comparing 60`s muscle cars to model T`s.

The ruger is the most durable for this game but it does not feel like the old SAA. I think the current USFA gun are the very best SAA available today. The current colts are good guns too, but a few years back (late 80's early 90's) Colt had problems with the 3rd gen colts so I'm a bit gun shy toward colts. They are doing much better so if their QC stays at current levels I may change my mind.

As for the Italian SAA's, I think the EMF GWII's (Made by Pietta) are the very best SAA coming out of Italy now. The only exception would be the new Ultimate and Classic's from AWA-USA. (Russel hasn't told me this but I think they are Pietta parts too.) Like the original they both have hammer mounted firing pins. They have the hardened firing pin bushing in the recoil plate. The bolt cam there on the hammer is a pressed in hardened cam like the colts, and they use the late style bolts that have more rounded tips to help prevent cam wear. Plus all the screw threads are colt compatible. But they come with some ruger type coil spring improvements. The frames are drilled for the coil hand spring to replace the leaf type hand spring spring the weakest link in the colt action.
The Uberti guns are good guns but aren't as close to the originals as the GWII or AWA. Uberti did drop the "D" cam configured guns with the flapper on the hammer. If you have a Uberti with the two position base pin you will have their lastest.
Uberti has added the coil hand spring in their current SAA's. But, they still have the soft hammer cams and bolts with sharp fingers that prematurely wear those soft cams. For those that haven't heard it before this premature wear is what causes the "RING-AROUND-THE CYLINDER". The gun is going out of time.

Someone mentioned the Berretta. Those guns have had some problems mostly related to timing issue and some have had small parts related to the transfer bar failures. This has also be true of the Taurus Gaucho's. Both the Berretta and the taurus are based on the colt style lock work but have had the add-on tranfer parts added. The colt style lock work is a robust design but does not lend itself well to these small delicate add on parts. Over the long haul these small parts don't hold up.