Bullet / powder question

[J Miller]

I have some UNsized and UNlubed Lyman 454424 bullets. For those who don't know those are 45 cat Keith SWCs that are supposed to weigh 255grs.

So, if I sized 'em up and lubed them with a black powder lube and seated them over a case full of black powder do you think I'd have a viable load, or just a smokey, messy, noisy waste of components?

And yes this is for shooting out of my lever guns, so this thread is on topic.

Just curious cos if I've done this it was sooooooo long ago I've forgotten.

Joe

[AJMD429]

For those who don't know those are 45 cat Keith SWCs that are supposed to weigh 255grs.

Joe, I can't answer your question (though I've always heard a 'case-full' of black powder and any normal-for-caliber lead bullet in a straight-wall case was likely a 'good' load), but you must still have kitties-on-the-brain...

Sorry for your recent pet loss, by the way - it is always a bummer. Living on a 'farmstead' with goats, chickens, cats, dogs, gunieas, and a llama, something with a Name is always needing buried...

Of course, maybe the ".45 Cat" is a new wildcat I've not heard of yet...

[J Miller]

AJMD,

The .45 cat ............... oh boy what a typo! How I got cat instead of Colt is one on me. Guess you're right about having cats and other things on the mind.
Perhaps the thing to cogitate on is the name thing. If we don't name them it won't hurt so much when they die. Think that might work?

I've recently purchased 200 290gr Keith SWCs from LAH or Dry Creek Bullet Works to load up for rifle and Ruger loads. My biggest barrier is I have insufficient empty cases. I done loaded 'em all some time back and need to go shoot some empty. Gonna use up some of the H110 for those.

Been toying with the idea of buying another pound of black powder, just haven't gotten round-to-it yet. Lots of things I'm not getting round-to since that fall.

Oh well, perhaps it will give me time to work on my new cartridge; the .45 cat.

Joe

[BigMuddy]

Joe

I depends on how hard those bullets are. Usually a softer alloy, say 20-1 is needed to shoot black powder accurately. Also for mine a thin card wad between the bullet and powder has helped accuracy.

Dan

[Malamute]

Keith wrote that his bullet designs were good for black or smokeless. Large grease groove, scraping front shoulder to remove fouling on the way down the barrel, and more of the bullet sticking out front to maximizes powder space.

[J Miller]

Joe

I depends on how hard those bullets are. Usually a softer alloy, say 20-1 is needed to shoot black powder accurately. Also for mine a thin card wad between the bullet and powder has helped accuracy.

Dan

They are cast from wheel weights. Pretty close to 20-1.

Keith wrote that his bullet designs were good for black or smokeless. Large grease groove, scraping front shoulder to remove fouling on the way down the barrel, and more of the bullet sticking out front to maximizes powder space.

Yes, I thought I'd read something like that.

I'll just have to give it a try.

Joe

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Are you sure about that mold number? I went to the Lyman website and I do not see a 454424 mold. However, there is a 452424 mold designed by Keith that throws a 255 grain bullet.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bull ... entryID=33

In any case, fill the case with enough powder so that when you seat the bullet the powder is compressed by 1/16" - 1/8". That's all there is to it.

I will comment though, that to some that lube groove may look big, but in reality you may find your bullets running out of lube about six inches from the muzzle if you are shooting them from a rifle. However it should be fine in a revolver. I have shot plenty of Smokeless bullets with Black Powder in rifles over the years, and if you don't have enough soft bullet lube in the groove, they tend to 'run dry' about six inches from the muzzle. Without enough lube on the bullet, hard crusty fouling can begin building up near the muzzle and accuracy will suffer. The solution is very simple. As soon as accuracy starts dropping off, run a couple of wet patches down the bore to swab out the dry crusty fouling. You can use your favorite water based Black Powder solvent, or you can use just plain water.

The key is, you want enough soft BP lube on the bullet to leave a 'lube star' on the muzzle face. As the bullet leaves the muzzle, if there is still some lube on the bullet, the rifling will impart a star shaped deposit of lube on the muzzle face. If you don't get a lube star, you ain't got enough lube on your bullets.

These days I only use the Big Lube bullets with Black Powder. They have a lube groove big enough to hide an aircraft carrier in. Always plenty of lube, always a good lube star.

I cast my BP bullets from a melt of about 30/1 lead/tin.

I never put a card wad between the bullet and the powder. Used to, but I found out that for most applications it is not necessary and is just one more step in loading.

[J Miller]

Driftwood Johnson,

Yep, absolutely sure about the number. The 454424 mold pre-dates the 452424. Lyman changed the size of the bullet a bit in the 80s I think. They made a mistake doing that, but they don't care what I think.

I was wondering about the capacity of the lube groove. This mold does not have the squared shoulder grove of Keith's original design, it's the got the rounded grove. It shoots fine from the rifles with smokeless powder, but I've never shot it with black from the rifles.
So you might just be right about it running out of lube with B.P..

Joe

[M. M. Wright]

Joe,
Don't worry too much about the amount of lube as long as it's SPG or some other good black powder lube. Don't try it with the lube that smells like crayolas. Even if it runs out of lube, it will still generally shoot about 10 shots before the accuracy goes away. I really noticed a big difference when I went from a 20 inch to a 24 inch barrel. Used to shoot a whole match without cleaning and now wipe between stages.

[Driftwood Johnson]

You will probably get more than ten shots out of it before accuracy goes south. I used to shoot regular hard cast bullets that I had melted the lube out of and pan lubed with BP lube. Usually shot RNFP 250 grain bullets. Just one skimpy lube groove. With a 24 inch barrel I could usually go three or four stages (30 or 40 shots) before I noticed accuracy seriously deteriorating. Then I would swab my bore out to restore accuracy. Just a few wet patches and accuracy was restored.

With bullets like these, you would never run out of lube, no matter how long the barrel is. These happen to be the Mav-Dutchman 44 caliber 200 grain Big Lube bullet. I shoot them in my 44-40 rifles with Black Powder. I also cast a couple of versions for 45 caliber and load them in 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.



Like I said, if you have a nice, gooey, black lube star on the face of your muzzle, your bullets still have some lube on them as they exit. No lube star and they have run out of lube.

P.S. The brand of Black Powder you choose will also affect how much mileage you get from your lube. Goex burns pretty dirty and leaves a lot of fouling behind. So you will get less mileage from your lube when using Goex. Swiss on the other hand burns very clean because of the type of charcoal they use. Folks often wonder how 19th Century shooters did so well with bullets like that Keith bullet, or other conventional single lube groove bullets. Like all things, Black Powder can vary in quality from brand to brand. Some of the older powders were a superior type, like Swiss. They did not cause as much fouling so the lube in a single groove was sufficient to keep the bore lubed for its entire length. You need to keep the fouling moist, that is the difference between Black Powder fouling and Smokeless fouling. That's what the lube does, it keeps the fouling moist.

If you don't want to spring for Swiss powder, and I would not blame you in the least if you don't, see if you can find some Schuetzen. It is made by Wano in Germany. Graff sells the same stuff under their own label. Schuetzen (and Graff) uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex and consequently burns cleaner. The beauty of Schuetzen is it costs just about the same as Goex, but it is a superior powder and burns cleaner. So you will get more mileage out of the lube in your single lube groove.

[J Miller]

Alas, the only powder available locally is Goex. And at only one place.
I don't shoot enough bp to make it worth having some shipped in.

So if and when I do buy some more it will be Goex.

Joe