Combat leverguns

[aussie]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but it is an interesting read.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=418868

[gvthnks]

good article from the OP, but the comments later on are irritating

[AJMD429]

These have become my indoor (blued) and outdoor (stainless) "go-to" guns...

[Lastmohecken]

Well, one thing is for sure, and that is a good man with a levergun, can be pretty effective in a SD or home defense siduation, and they are not clumsey to handle or get in action quickly.

[AJMD429]

Well, one thing is for sure, and that is a good man with a levergun, can be pretty effective in a SD or home defense siduation, and they are not clumsey to handle or get in action quickly.

Yep. The box-fed semiautos in high-velocity, pointy-bullet rounds would have a definite edge if one were attacked by a dozen well-armed and organized assailants, but that scenario is so remote, vs. a group of two or three ordinary thugs, that 'preparing' for that may as well justify having a belt-fed full-auto, a trip-wire mined perimeter, grenade-mesh on the windows, and having the family sleep in shifts with someone always up on the roof behind a kevlar-and-concrete parapet. Don't get me wrong - I really like ALL types of firearms, and a Ruger No. 1 in .22 Hornet is right there on my 'wish list' beside a suppressed AC-556, but the guys on that forum who kept saying that a levergun wasn't 'enough' vs a box-fed semiauto, are either living in an active war-zone, or watch too much television...

... ...

Besides, you can put a bayonet on a levergun, so it MUST be "tactical", right...?

Bayonet 444.jpg

(from MarlinOwners - http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 303.0.html)

[C. Cash]

I think the defensive levergun makes alot of sense. A trapper is so compact and quick on target, hold a decent amount of powerful rounds...can be slung on the back and forgotten about until needed. It can also be broken down to fit in a small backpack. This is My Evil Brown Rifle on the Left, in 44 Mag. It has the Ashley Front/Rear.

[Old Ironsights]

As a "Homeland Defense Rifle" the Levergun makes a HUGE amount of sense.

#1, since it is NOT an EBR, people (A) don't look at you as a "threat" and (B) don't look at you as a Target. Mall Ninjas want EBRs. They aren't going to try to whack you for your Lever. Likewise, the PTB are more interested in dealing with EBR toting Mall Ninjas than Farmer John and his Levergun.

#2, My HDR & my CCW eat the same food - that is easy & cheap to cast/reload for. Very handy when the fecal matter hits the rotary air moving device.

[jeepnik]

Over at that "other" levergun sight, they have a forum for "combat" leverguns. I'm persona non grata there, so I don't know what it contains. I guess my GS with it's holo sight, and butt cuff/ammo carrier is sorta tactical. Yet, even in my state, we can own box fed (granted ten round limited) long guns. And, since they aren't full auto, ten rounds isn't all that much of a handicap.

As to AJMD's bayonet fitted levegun, how is that attached? Did you use the lug from an M1A?

[Grizz]

I like doc's tripwire idea.... setup to start the cameras, (gun cameras?), and sound the klaxon inside. and maybe a couple of bars of squad car lights on the roof ridge to make sure the cleanup detail gets the right spot.

[Griff]

I just hadta add my $.02... "I'd feed the trolls, but since this is my first post... I'll leave well enough alone."

[AJMD429]

As to AJMD's bayonet fitted levegun, how is that attached? Did you use the lug from an M1A?

It isn't my gun...

The pic is from this thread on MarlinOwners.com - .444 Marlin with Bayonet thread - http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 303.0.html

Here's a couple of 'clues' - but you should really read the original post - it is very interesting!

Link = http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 303.0.html

Bayonet Lug to anchor rear:

Well, first before anything starts, I needed to have a plan. The bayonet itself, the ring on the handle is 7/8" in diameter. Much larger then the barrel diameter on the Marlin, but not by much. Having a big ol Bore really helps when you need to fill a gap. I thought about soldering a sleeve on the barrel, but thought it would look stupid. Just a bulge in the barrel, with no real purpose. I decided against it and hit the drawing board.

Then I had to tackle the idea of the Bayonet Lug itself. Luckily that was the easiest part. Here in CT, you can't have a bayonet lug on a post ban AR15 if you have a pistol grip and the ability to have a detachable box magazine, so once in a while we will get a customer in who purchased a brand new upper for his AR15 and needs it to become CT compliant. Well, recently we had such an occurrence, but this time instead of just grinding it off, I would use a very thin blade hack saw and cut it off neatly and save it. Well, this is what I got.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee84 ... lug003.jpg

I'll admit openly I am not a very good welder and I don't even have access to one at my shop, so I ended up soldering the Bayonet Lug onto the 444's Magazine Cap. I removed all the blue from the cap and most of the paint from the lug and made myself a bootleg holding jig to solder. It ended up working out pretty well. I used a wide Flat Jaw vice grip to hold the two pieces together, while holding the vice grips in another vice.

Flash Suppressor to anchor front:

I got rid of those threads and opened it up to accept a 5/8-24 Tap. The size I needed for this to fit onto my barrel without the threads cutting into my bore of the 444.

So I got myself a Tap and some cutting oil and did it.

Then I chucked it up again and ran a drill bit through and opened up the entire Vortex itself.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee84 ... tex011.jpg

[6pt-sika]

If you don't mind me asking what cartridge does your #1B fire and is that a K10 or K12 on top ?

[6pt-sika]

Not really for tactical or home defense reasons .

But I'm giving seriouse consideration to wacking the barrel on the circa 1966 First Model 444 I've owned the longest . This one has the most blue wear si it stands to reason to be the most likely to get the chop and reblue !
I just wanna cut it down to 18 3/4" , same as the Marlin "444P" , which would make this kind of a retro 444P

[Griff]

I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, a lever gun in 45ACP would be just the ticket to match up with a 1911 and not be too "tactical" lookin'!

Why couldn't one fill the notches on the 1894 bolt to mate with a 45ACP rim, give the extractor a little tweek, and set the barrel of a .45Colt back enough that you could rechamber for the 45ACP, headspacing on the case mouth. Hmmm.... maybe another 1894 project rifle is in my future?

[Old Ironsights]

I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, a lever gun in 45ACP would be just the ticket to match up with a 1911 and not be too "tactical" lookin'!

Why couldn't one fill the notches on the 1894 bolt to mate with a 45ACP rim, give the extractor a little tweek, and set the barrel of a .45Colt back enough that you could rechamber for the 45ACP, headspacing on the case mouth. Hmmm.... maybe another 1894 project rifle is in my future?

I heard of some CAS Gamer who did just that... but IIRC it still ran into short-stroke issues.

IMO .357 works just fine. If you want an autoloader, get a Coonan.

[pokey]

well,well,well everybody here likes leverguns, i'm shocked i tell ya.[ that was sarcasm if you missed it.]

there was a quote in that mess that i like/agree with,
"it's not the rifle but the man behind it"

run what ya brung.

[rodeo kid]

Very well written thread-good work. But since I live in a free state instead of Kalifornia, If I ever have to defend my 5 acres due to anarchy ghouls, or goblins I will start out with my AK-47, AR-15, and 8 shot 12 ga. pump. I have 9 leverguns and love them all but will hold them in reserve for self defense. God Bless.

[Slick]

My Marlin 1895 SBL sort of qualifies for a “combat lever gun”. It’s got the 1913 rail and XS ghost sights that are easy to pick up fast. The sling is adjusted for carry and as a shooting aid. The sight is a Vortex “strikefire” in a LaRue QD (RAS II) mount and comes with a screw-on “doubler” lens. It’s been plenty bright shooting in mid-day sun and also can be switched to a green dot (that I’ve not really tried).



I have some custom 97 grain Lehigh bullets to test out. The look just like a 500gr lead bullet - but they are made out of machine-turned aluminum. The velocity and retained energy inside 100 yards is what they're supposed to be used for.

Now that I’ve acquired a Winchester (Miroku) 92 short-rifle in .44mag, I’m going to put a red-dot optic on my 16-inch .44mag Trapper and go to a synthetic stock. I’ve never felt “under-gunned” with the Trapper..

[jkbrea]

[quote="Slick"]My Marlin 1895 SBL sort of qualifies for a “combat lever gun”. It’s got the 1913 rail and XS ghost sights that are easy to pick up fast. The sling is adjusted for carry and as a shooting aid. The sight is a Vortex “strikefire” in a LaRue QD (RAS II) mount and comes with a screw-on “doubler” lens. It’s been plenty bright shooting in mid-day sun and also can be switched to a green dot (that I’ve not really tried).



Like the rifle Slick. Here's my XLR I had cut down and modified a little two years before the SBL came out. Amazing resembleance.

[Griff]

My combat levergun:


Quite the hi-tech firepower in 1860... although not of general issue, it made quite the impact in that little fracas between the states!

[L_Kilkenny]

The thread on the other sight had some real dinks didn't it? I like lever guns. I like the style, I like the history, and I fully respect their ability. Betting the same guys that thumb their noses at lever guns are also the same one that think revolvers are a dead platform. They can have their opinion but then again, they would be wrong.

But (and I mean a big but), if I really really thought I was gonna be attacked, or I was gonna have to bug out in a zombie infested world, or I thought that my door was gonna get busted down by a hord of red chinese, etc., etc., a lever gun would not be too high on my list. There are much better paltforms even on the left coast.

Glad to say the odds of me NEEDING anything more than a lever gun are so slim as to not even cross my mind anymore.

BTW, 12ga. pump is still better!

LK

[AJMD429]

I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, a lever gun in 45ACP would be just the ticket to match up with a 1911 and not be too "tactical" lookin'!

....or....

Just use a levergun in .45 Colt, and 'get by' with a Ruger .45 Colt Bisley or two...

[adirondakjack]

I've heard it mentioned a couple of times, a lever gun in 45ACP would be just the ticket to match up with a 1911 and not be too "tactical" lookin'!

Why couldn't one fill the notches on the 1894 bolt to mate with a 45ACP rim, give the extractor a little tweek, and set the barrel of a .45Colt back enough that you could rechamber for the 45ACP, headspacing on the case mouth. Hmmm.... maybe another 1894 project rifle is in my future?

I heard of some CAS Gamer who did just that... but IIRC it still ran into short-stroke issues.

IMO .357 works just fine. If you want an autoloader, get a Coonan.

The .45 ACP round has myriad issues when trying to make the levergun run it. it has been done, but never reliably. Reworking the chamber, the bolt face and the extractor would be a minimum, then ya have to get busy and make it feed the short case (which turns out to be the easiest part, at least not needing a new barrel and welded up bolt face.

I have several leverguns that run a .45 ACP-length round, the Cowboy .45 Special. The C45S is acp length, but has a case head identical to .45 Colt. That means no issues with the chamber, bolt face, or extractor. The Marlin 1894 can be converted to run the short rounds, the 20 inch rifle will then hold 13+1, the 24 inch gun holds 17+1, and a stubby 16" Marlin still holds 11+1.

The other leverguns forgotten in the article are the toggle links. A '73 can be converted to run the short rounds through the use of a special carrier I designed (we've sold over 100 of em). My 24" '73 will hold at least 17+1 (never tried it to be honest with you), and is a slick and fast way to get very near Semi-Auto rates of fire in those jursidictions where SA rifles are problematic.

What the author also doesn't mention is slicked and tricked to CAS race gun status, a levergun can cycle VERY fast. World records are on the order of 1.8 seconds for TEN rounds. You won't do that with a bumper jack-stiff levergun, but with some slicking and lighter springs, yepper, they can flat git when it comes to hosing down whatever might need it. Of course the levergun won't reload like yer AR, but if ya can't get the job done with 11-18 rounds, ya probably need close air support or artillery anyway....

[C. Cash]

If you don't mind me asking what cartridge does your #1B fire and is that a K10 or K12 on top ?

6pt-sika, It's in 22-250 and it's an older K10 on top.

[Slick]

You set that up very nice and created the rifle I always wanted - An 1895 guide gun in stainless WITH a full-length magazine tube. I should say "thanks", because you and a whole lot of other people swayed Marlin into making various combinations of calibers, metal (stainless or blue), and barrel-length (style) to make the GG's a popular and sought after field rifle. popular.

[piller]

My Model 92 in .480 Ruger would be my combat levergun. I handload, so it can be mild to wild, and it works fast. It can be loaded from the tube or from the side of the magazine. If I need more than 10 rounds of 400 grain .480s at 1100 fps, then I might need the Stainless Guide Gun as backup. If I need more than that, I do have one of the UBR AR15 rifles.

[AJMD429]

If someone made removable-while-loaded magazines of the 'tubular' type for leverguns, they'd be the ultimate fighting weapon...

[piller]

If someone made removable-while-loaded magazines of the 'tubular' type for leverguns, they'd be the ultimate fighting weapon...

It might not be alll that hard to make a removeable tube. Something like the threads on the Lee dies which are quickly removeable, and a spring loaded detent to slip into the interruption area to stop rotation unless by intent. Some type of lock for the front end to lock it to the barrell and prevent wobbling would be next. This is beyond my skills, but from what I know of machine work, it sounds feasible. To prevent the rounds from falling out, there sould be a simple spring which would be pushed out of the way much the same as is already done to prevent multiple feeding in all the leverguns I have ever seen. The difficult part would be retrofitting and also convincing the factories to make it standard. If it were done, a couple of tubes slid into loops sewn into the lower legs of your jeans or hunting trousers would make for a bunch of firepower.

[adirondakjack]

If someone made removable-while-loaded magazines of the 'tubular' type for leverguns, they'd be the ultimate fighting weapon...

It might not be alll that hard to make a removeable tube. Something like the threads on the Lee dies which are quickly removeable, and a spring loaded detent to slip into the interruption area to stop rotation unless by intent. Some type of lock for the front end to lock it to the barrell and prevent wobbling would be next. This is beyond my skills, but from what I know of machine work, it sounds feasible. To prevent the rounds from falling out, there sould be a simple spring which would be pushed out of the way much the same as is already done to prevent multiple feeding in all the leverguns I have ever seen. The difficult part would be retrofitting and also convincing the factories to make it standard. If it were done, a couple of tubes slid into loops sewn into the lower legs of your jeans or hunting trousers would make for a bunch of firepower.

A push/turn arrangement at the back end, a slip fit that rides up onto a rubber O ring grooved into the tube at the front and yer there. All that would remain is a "flipper" integrated into the tail end of the tube so once the tube was loaded, rounds stayed in it until it was locked in place in the gun. locking it in place would release the flipper. The project might mean using a large caliber mag tube on a small caliber gun, or would be easiest, say a .38 caliber rifle with a .45 size tube. This would allow a lined tube which buys ya wall thickness to do the conversion.

Alternatively, why not simply use a CPVC "speed loader" and load through the gate. The CAS folks have that figured out, and several use em.

[jeepnik]

Hey, anyone seen that new shotgun with the dual mag tubes. Now there's an idea for someone a heck of alot smarter than me. Let's see if anyone takes up the challange.