Help with Uberti 1873

[gunsbrad]

Hi folks,

I don't post on here much but I sure do read alot. I was hoping I could get some help with this problem.

I purchased a new uberti 1873 winchester pistol grip 24" bbl 45 colt. Seems like a fine made gun and shoots well. I purchased this gun to shoot cowboys since we have a brand new cowboy match about 45 minutes from me. I haven't shot cowboys in about five years, but had about 1000 loaded cartridges left from when I used to shoot. Mixed 45 colt brass, wlp, 5 gr trailboss, 200gr rnfp bullet.

The problem is the lifter/carrier gets fouled and will not fall all the way down so that the bolt can be retracted. This only happens on the last round. If a round is in the magazine it will push the lifter down. If not it will hang halfway down, and you have to manually push it down to clear the gun. It does not do this with a clean gun, but it fouls after 2-3 magazines full. Obviously cleaning would work, but I can't take the rifle completely apart a couple times during a match.

Has anybody had this experience? Does anyone have a remedy?

Thanks,
Brad Hurt

[RIHMFIRE]

Try a cleaner burning powder...

I use unique in my 73s
but i dont shoot the volume that you do in one outing....
I shoot maybe 50 rounds per gun....and I have had no problems...

and I am going out to the range right now to shoot it

[gunsbrad]

I tried lots of unique. It does well in mid range loads but in these lighter loads it is much dirtier than trailboss.

Thanks,
Brad Hurt

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Hi folks,

I don't post on here much but I sure do read alot. I was hoping I could get some help with this problem.

I purchased a new uberti 1873 winchester pistol grip 24" bbl 45 colt. Seems like a fine made gun and shoots well. I purchased this gun to shoot cowboys since we have a brand new cowboy match about 45 minutes from me. I haven't shot cowboys in about five years, but had about 1000 loaded cartridges left from when I used to shoot. Mixed 45 colt brass, wlp, 5 gr trailboss, 200gr rnfp bullet.

The problem is the lifter/carrier gets fouled and will not fall all the way down so that the bolt can be retracted. This only happens on the last round. If a round is in the magazine it will push the lifter down. If not it will hang halfway down, and you have to manually push it down to clear the gun. It does not do this with a clean gun, but it fouls after 2-3 magazines full. Obviously cleaning would work, but I can't take the rifle completely apart a couple times during a match.

Has anybody had this experience? Does anyone have a remedy?

Thanks,
Brad Hurt

If you have a belt sander you can relieve the sides of the carrier some and it will help. but as mentioned you may want to change you load.

This discussion comes up almost monthly either on the SASS WIRE or over on the LEVERGUNS.COM forum . Usually it is about the 45lc rifles and the severe blowback with the down loaded CAS ammo.
The reason the problem is more common with the 45lc rifle is because the makers all use the maximum SAMMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition. Manufacturers’ Institute) specs when they ream the chambers for the gun. They do this so the gun will more likely cycle with a broad spectrum of ammo's. This is why semi-auto pistol with match grade guns are finicky about the ammo they will run. The match grade chambers are tight.

I do warranty work for EMF. Over the years the EMF folks have had me do chamber cast on various rifles because the customer insisted the chambers were bad. One feller bought an EMF 92 and before he ever shot it sent it to Doug Turnbull for color-case work. Once he shot it with his CAS loads he found that the cases would swell but only on one side, much like your’s. This to him indicated a bulged chamber. He sent the rifle to me along with some of his bulged fired brass to verify this. I did a chamber cast and found the chamber to be within SAMMI spec. and the cases were truly bulged but not beyond SAMMI. Think about this. If the chamber was bulged and the brass was bulged to match extraction would be difficult. Not the case here. The fired bulged brass would easily chamber and fall right out if the open rifle was held vertical. The brass was bulged because that was the softest or the thinnest area of the case, not because the chamber was bad. He insisted, they gave him his money back and I bought a Doug Turnbull CC-ed rifle on the cheap from them.
More recently, they had a feller send me a 92 and a 73 for the same reason. He insisted the chambers were too big on both. I cast both guns and both guns were within SAMMI. He still insist that they are bad, that SAMMI spec are not correct and the industry should do something about it.


This diagram shows both cartridge and chamber dimensions. Please note that unless noted all diameters are +.004 and there .200' inside the chamber the nominal is .4862. if you add .004 to that the chamber can be as large as .4902 and still be in spec. I believe this all came about when the industry changed from the non rebated old balloon style cases like the one shown to the modern rebated rim swaged brass. Notice the max bullet dia. .456. Modern 45lc bullets run to only about .454 max with the majority at .452. The current ammo specs don't fill the chambers like the old balloon case ammo. So hard brass and down loaded CAS ammo will exhibit these problems.



This 45lc blowby in the rifle problem has been going on for so long now I believe the IMR folks came out with their Trailboss powder just to combat this. A good book charge of Trailboss and a 250 grain bullet crimped well in a Win or Starline case seems to be the solution for some folks. Win or Starline cases are somewhat softer brass than most of the others. Some folks only neck size their once fired rifle brass. For BP, there are some folks using 44-40 brass blown out to 45 and claim it works well. 44-40 brass is really thin.

[Grizzly Adams]

Diagnosing these things without rifle in hand is always an adventure in frustration, but I'll take a shot at it.

You don't indicate how many rounds you shot before this issue developed, but I am assuming it was more than you might shoot in a typical match? From your description of the problem it sounds like it is a combination of fouling in the carrier and on the face of the follower that is causing the snag - since it works when a cartridge (clean surface) is present in the magazine.

Three things:

1. The published beginning load for TB with a 200 grain bullet is 5.5, so you are on the low end, and that may contribute to the fouling you are experiencing. Try increasing the powder charge.

2. The 45LC is notorious for "shooting dirty" especially with reduced loads, and there is little to nothing you can do about that, except keep it cleaned.

3. Check to make sure your carrier spring is snug.......

[gunsbrad]

Thanks for the replies.

I knew when I bought this gun the 45 colt was dirty. I was prepared for that. I have seen several cowboys shoot the exact load I am in an 1873, and function. I have shot this load a bunch in marlins and 1892 clones. It has always worked and was always dirty, but worked much better than unique or others I have tried. I would really like to make this rifle work with this load. Heavier loads with 250 gr bullets are not what I want to be shooting in matches.

Grizzly Adams,
It starts to foul after about 3 mags full which is well less than what I would shoot in a match.

It works with a round in the mag, because the mag spring pushes the next round against the slant on the lifter pushing lifter down. Since the follower is captured it cannot push the lifter down.

Nate Kiowa Jones,

I may try relieving the sides of the lifter. I had already thought of this but didn't want to until I consulted others with experience with this gun in 45 colt. I Figure this would cure it, but just checking to see if there might be any less invasive tries.

Thanks,
Brad Hurt

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

As has been stated, this may be a combination of too much fouling and some roughness someplace in the carrier well preventing the carrier from moving freely. It could also be that your timing is slightly off, so once things are not quite optimum you start to have problems.

A couple of things you can do to lessen the fouling problem are

Increase your powder charge beyond the minimum. As has been stated, 45 Colt is notorious for an inefficient burn with light charges. Increase your powder charge a bit and you will probably get less blowby. Frankly, I have never understood why so many cowboy shooters think they need a super light load with a 45 Colt rifle. After all, the rifle weighs around seven pounds. You will never notice the recoil if you up your load a bit. Keep the light loads for your pistols, where it makes a difference. A heavier bullet won't hurt either. Just make sure you stay within recommend data from a recognized source, not some guy on the internet.

Another trick is to only neck size your brass. Once it has been fireformed, leave the rear of the case unsized so it fills the chamber better. Just size the neck.

Use a really firm crimp. Really firm. Holding the bullet back from leaving the case for a microsecond or so will increase pressure, which will help fill the chamber better.

The carriers on my '73 and my Henry have been relieved on the sides, only leaving a rim of brass around the outside. Much less friction that way. Nate's idea is a good one too, he knows what he is talking about.

You want to talk about fouling sometime, try shooting Black Powder in your '73.

[gunsbrad]

driftwood

I like that idea of reliving the sides but leaving a rim. I may have to go out and dig up a ball end mill

Thanks
Brad Hurt

[Rube Burrows]

I have a 73 Uberti in .45 Colt and just shot my second match yesterday with this rifle. First match I was using 250 gr RNFP and 5.2 Grains of Trail Boss. You need to up your charge some as most loads start around 5.7 give or take a tad.

This time around I was using 200 grain RNFP bullets with WLP Primers and 5.7 grains of TB. I had some dirty brass afterwords but no sticking at all of the carrier. The .45 Colt, as you know, will always be dirty.....esp in the 73. Just have to find ways to work around it.

[gunsbrad]

Upping the charge would be the easy fix, but I have shot thousands of this load in other rifles and pistols. I won't change the load as it performs. I could up the charge just for the rifle, but then would have to have two separate loads for pistols and rifle. I really, really, really don't want to do that. Same for neck sizing only. If I am going to be loading thousands and thousands of these, they will be all the same from my dillon 650. If I can't load bunches easy I will find another game. I really think I can make this load work. I plan on trying some of the lifter mods.

Thanks,
Brad Hurt

[buckeyeshooter]

How about spraying some gunscrubber in it and giving it a quick 'cleaning' between stages?

[kimwcook]

Gunsbrad, given your parameters I think your only remedy at this point is to relieve the sides of the carrier a little. I would also suggest making sure your carrier spring has good tension. I haven't had my '73 open for a while, but if I remember correctly the carrier spring can be somewhat adjusted to provide more or less tension as needed/wanted. A little relieving of the carrier and good carrier spring tension and you'd probably be in good shape. Maybe aftermarket springs would help. I know there's a number of kits out there, but they may be tensioned the wrong direction. But you might get a spare and bend it for more tension rather than less.

I use a Marlin Cowboy in 45 Colt for CAS and yes it shoots dirty because my load pressures aren't high enough for the brass to effectively seal in the chamber. But it doesn't matter with the Marlin as it just keeps on going. My '73 is in 38-40 and as I only received this at Christmas this last year I haven't done a lot of load development. Shooting factory rounds through it showed me the brass seals very easily as there wasn't a single sooted case and I guarantee you the rounds aren't high end. Quite a difference.


Cleaning between stages would be a pain. Lubing wouldn't be hard, but would probably end up a mess. Hope you get your '73 running. Keep us informed as to your progress.

[Griff]

Another tip is annealing the mouth, down no more than a 1/3 of it's length... this allows the brass to open up more, sealing better.

When I ain't shootin' black, I use either RedDot or Clays, both of which aren't really dirty. But also I keep my charges up to around 800fps with 200-225 bullets. My 1873 is nicely clearanced (it came that was, I ain't done anything to it... but my 1860 Henry is rather tight and still gums up.

Tighten up that lifter spring. Mine snaps down with authority! Watch them screw slots... don't bugger up that soft eyetalian steel!

[adirondakjack]

What ya NEED is a "positive slam down" modification. A competent '73 smith can fix ya up. What the positive slam down mod does is mechanically make the carrier go all the way down. It is accomplished by welding a little bump of metal onto the lever such that when ya close the lever the lever pysically pushes the lifter, which in turn pushes the carrier down.

I shot six stages with a very light .45 load using bulleye powder and light bullets yesterday ( a nasty combination for crud). My rifle is filthy. The top of the brass carrier (which is shiny new, and the sides have not been polished down) is BLACK. Yet I can hold my empty right upside down and cycle it, and the carrier returns to where it belongs when I close the lever...... Oh, the lifter spring on my rifle is backed right off.

[kimwcook]

Tighten up that lifter spring. Mine snaps down with authority! Watch them screw slots... don't bugger up that soft eyetalian steel!

I got some properly hardened aftermarket screws from VTI Gun Parts (Thanks, Griff). The originals were way to soft and way to tight. Even with appropriate gun screwdriver bits they were starting to show wear just taking it apart to clean it for the first time. Highly suggest getting some.

[gunsbrad]

I like the idea of that slam down mod. It shouldn't be too hard to fit an extra lump on with Jb weld to test the idea and get a pattern and then fix a solid piece from bar stock. Anybody have a pattern for such an animal?

Thanks,
Brad

[adirondakjack]

It's really rather simple (as most ingenious ideas are)


If you lay the rifle on it's right (gate) side on the bench, lever facing you, barrel will point left, and remove the side plate, all will be revealed. DON'T PICK UP THE GUN or the toggle links will fall out. Do open then slowly close the lever, noting where the forward part of the lever inside the gun comes very close to the top, rear part of the "lifter" arm that operates the carrier. You will see that when the lever is almost closed, there comes a point where that gap is very small, and IF ya simply had a small lump of metal TIG welded onto the lever, then polished smooth, it would push the lifter (and in turn the carrier) down as the lever closed. We're talking about a spot on the lever forward and up from the lever screw hole, on the front aspect, the underside of the inclined "ramp" at the nose of the lever as it is closed. It ends up a lump of metal about the same cross section as a wooden match or a little less. YES JB weld would be a perfect way to model it with YOUR gun, as each is a little different in tolerances. It's gonna need a little "filing in" to get positive slam down and yet no binding (the lever has to close freely).....


Here the green arrow points to the lifter arm, at the point more or less where the lever will cause it (and the carier) to "slam down" once the mod is done. In the blue circle is a little orange "blob", more or less where the weld will be added to the lever. it's really easier to see this in the gun, with the lever closed, as the parts are in the proper orientation....

(Note" it might actually be easier to see if you tease the left toggle link out of the gun and just cycle it with only the right link in place. As long as you don't pick the gun up, and the right side stays flat on the bench, the rest of the guts won't fall apart as you cycle the lever.

[gunsbrad]

Thanks,

That is exactly what I was looking for. I am going to try this soon.

Brad Hurt

[okdee]

Hey,

No one mentioned this. At Least that I read.

Clean your magzine tube and spring. Seems all the new rifles have some amount of rust and gunk in them from the get-go.
Could be the final push on the spring, with the last round, is getting too much resistance from the rust and gunk. Hence, it maybe gettin a log-jam in there!

On getting that magazine tube screw off, have an extremely well-fitted screw driver. Some even use a hack saw blade to loosen it.

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

[gunsbrad]

ok dee

mag tube was cleaned. this happened the late round only when there is one in the chamber but none in the mag.

I think I got it fixed. adirondakjack had the correct suggestion all along. When I built that surface up the thing cycles positively no matter how dirty I let it get. My shooting partner and I shot the fool out of that rifle and couldn't make it hang no matter how hard I tried. I may try to relieve the lifter sides with a ball end mill for less friction at a later date, but she is humming now. Thanks to all those who helped.

Does anyone know if the originals had this much slop between the lever front and the cam surface on the lifter lever. I can't imagine Winchester letting it out of the factory in that condition. I ended up with an extra .100" of metal, which is a bunch in this application. I have never had an original apart but if you have any experience with these I would like to know.

Thanks
Brad Hurt

[adirondakjack]

ok dee

mag tube was cleaned. this happened the late round only when there is one in the chamber but none in the mag.

I think I got it fixed. adirondakjack had the correct suggestion all along. When I built that surface up the thing cycles positively no matter how dirty I let it get. My shooting partner and I shot the fool out of that rifle and couldn't make it hang no matter how hard I tried. I may try to relieve the lifter sides with a ball end mill for less friction at a later date, but she is humming now. Thanks to all those who helped.

Does anyone know if the originals had this much slop between the lever front and the cam surface on the lifter lever. I can't imagine Winchester letting it out of the factory in that condition. I ended up with an extra .100" of metal, which is a bunch in this application. I have never had an original apart but if you have any experience with these I would like to know.

Thanks
Brad Hurt

Brad, that's about what my CAS race gun has, .100 build up. Yes this was an issue with the originals, but, since they rarely fired more than a few rounds, the field expedient was to manually assist the carrier with fingers, dribble some water from a canteen on it, or use the only available water source they had (the same as GI's used in Korea when M-1s would freeze shut, warm, slightly acidic water we all have on tap.....)

The positive slam down mod was done first about 10 years ago by an enterprizing CAS racegun smith. it allows positive cycling even when they back off on the spring to make it cycle easier...... Works great when ya shoot BP all day......