WAAAAAY O.T. for this forum

[Goat]

From time to time I get to thinking about a rifle that I could use to protect my family in the rural setting in which I live if life as we know it really did come to an end and there was no one else (Armed Forces or Law enforcement etc.) to even think about helping us regular people out. I have more leverguns than I can shake a stick at and keep enough ammo and components to keep things going for a goodly amount of time. Yet I believe if I really needed to defend my own from a determined group of armed individuals I should have some semi auto rifle for this role.
I know that many do not like the AR-15 platform but I am one who believes that it has been around long enough to have the kinks worked out. (It is fine with me if you don't think so.) BUT... I really want more "thump" than 5.56/.223. My first thought weas an AR in 7.62x39 but I have heard that most have feeding issues and the round really works best in a curved magazine. I know that there are a whole heap of other rounds available on this platform and you could move to the heavier AR-10. I don't want an AR-10 and I can't afford something that costs $2000. I think that the new 30AR Remington would be great but I doubt the round is going to be around long and I would really have to spend a lot on components I hope to never need.
So what are the choices? 6.8SPC seems at the front of the list but what am I missing? Or is there really better performance out of the heavier bullet loads for the 5.56?
And yes I have a lot of confidence in my levers and my ability to used them most effectively. But as good as we are with our levers I think when we are out numbered and the tube runs dry we will wish for more rounds at our IMMEDIATE disposal. SO... even if you hate "black rifles" and you think you could hanle a large group of agressors what do you think is the caliber to stake the life of your family on?
I could be convinced to consider the M-14 platform as well but I don't care for the length or weight of the original. (Go ahead and call me a wimp but with continued health issues I don't need the weight.)
Thanks for your serious thoughts on this matter.
Goat

[Hobie]

It seems to me that you can rank the choices this way...
#1 - AR-15 magazine accepting 5.56mm NATO shooting semi-auto (and I think every citizen should have one)
#2 - M-14 magazine accepting 7.62mm NATO shooting semi-auto (M1A)
#3 - M-1 Garand (.30-06 semi-auto)
#4 - just about anything else.

Truth be told you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you and your neighbors can't work together to ensure your security. For certain, one person isn't going to make it by themselves.

[Booger Bill]

My answer aint even a auto. It`s a cheap, good answer. Dad died leaveing me this 30-06 760 remington pump that he had put a peep on. Dad shot his last nice buck with it at 86 or 87 years old. I have many fine rifles, levers, bolts and even a nice browning auto 30-06. It sat in the back of my safe for 7 years. Last year I got curious and took it to the range and shot it off the bench. It was very acurate. It is light, very fast to shoot. You can buy them very cheap. They make a bigger magazine. Whats not to like? You can get them in other calibers too. I think it could be one of the best truck guns going. I tried to post a picture and it wouldnt post, but you all know what they are.

[GoatGuy]

How about the 6x45 in the AR platform. Reloading required, but heavier bullets, need nothing but a barrel change, uses .223 brass, fits ar15 mags, etc., etc. If you're not into the barrel changing thing, there are dedicated uppers for this round. Friend has one and swears by it. Great varmint round, but some more thump at any range than 5.56/223. Just a option if you're not comfortable with the 5.56/.223 cal.

[2ndovc]

I have a Colt Sporter lightweight and a Springfield SOCOM-16, M1A.

I'd hate to have to choose between the two but I'd probably keep the SOCOM over the Colt
just due to the extended range of the .308 W.

It's a little heavier and not as nimble as the AR but If I can see it I can hit it with the Springfield.
I feel limited to 200-250 yds with the .223.......

Just my observations with the arms I own. I have a friend with a heavy barrel Bushmaster that I
wouldn't get with in 500 yards of!!
jb

[kimwcook]

I depend on my AR15 for hostile multiple targets. It's accurate, dependable and doesn't weigh a ton. I'm very familiar with the platform from military and LE experience. As Hobie said, it's going to have to be a concerted effort on you and your neighbors to keep the bandits at bay. Cowards and bullies need company to inflict their will. And, once they start taking hits their drive dissipates rapidly. Most of the time your confrontations will be within 100 yds and the AR is extremely accurate within those ranges and well beyond.

[cowboykell]

My collection contains Whitneys to Winchesters, Marlins to Hepburns, but my WWII wall with a Garand, M1 carbine, and the Thompson...I think I'm good to go.

[Paladin]

It seems to me that you can rank the choices this way...
#1 - AR-15 magazine accepting 5.56mm NATO shooting semi-auto (and I think every citizen should have one)
#2 - M-14 magazine accepting 7.62mm NATO shooting semi-auto (M1A)
#3 - M-1 Garand (.30-06 semi-auto)
#4 - just about anything else.

Truth be told you're going to have a hard row to hoe if you and your neighbors can't work together to ensure your security. For certain, one person isn't going to make it by themselves.

Hobie is right the neighbors are the secret, I have a Remington .308 carbine as all of my assault type weapons were illegal in the area I am working in now. The .308 Pump is a great hunting gun very accurate, compact, light enough, magazine feed, common enough for parts, and accessories.

[Dave]

The AR is a good enough rifle and while you may want more umph, and there are cartridges for the AR that offer it, a good hit with a 223 is no joke. While people will run around some when hit they usually don't run long. The 55 gr ball load is probably a better choice than the 62. Heavier bullets in the 70 gr range are good too if your barrel has a 1/7 twist. A good hit with a 223 will sit them right down. If you miss or slop them up, just keep shooting.

[Otto]

Unless you are one of those who absolutely hate them, the AR15 in 5.56/.223 has the advantage of being VERY common, which means ammo, parts and magazines are everywhere. It is also very simple to perform most repairs, with no special tools unless one needs to change a barrel for some reason. Anyone with the slightest mechanical ability and a -23 manual should be good to go. Not saying they can be a so-called tier 1 builder, but...

[piller]

My preference for leverguns notwithstanding, if you can own an AR15 where you live, get one of the modern ones with 1 in 9 twist rate and some of the 62 grain jsp. At the range this load is as accurate as I can shoot and the kick is still the sproing bump of a typical AR15. I do not personally believe the .223 to be the best round for stopping a fight, but 62 grains of expanding soft point bullet will have to cause some damage. Just my Opinion, but it seems that people who attack a lone target probably would not enjoy having holes put in them by the intended target.
Where I live, the range is not going to be more than 100 yards, and I keep a Marlin 336 handy. If that is not enough firepower, then the AR15 comes out. Then the '92 in .480, then if something really needs to be stomped and I am still functioning, the Guide Gun would be used. I sincerely hope it never happens, but I do practice it with empty firearms.

[FWiedner]

I don't know why anyone would turn their nose up at an AR-15 if they can't afford or handle a heavier platform.

A .308 is a better killer by design, but I'm thinking you can carry probably an AR-15 carbine and 100rnds of 5.56mm for the empty weight of any .308 platform.

I've seen the diminutive 55gr fmj smash through a 4x4 and kill what was on the other side. I've seen it eviscerate medium size game animals. The cavitation wounds left by solid body shots are in a word, gruesome. Heavier bullets get better penetration but in my book are not an improvement for anti-personnel use.

There are some better platforms out there, but in the balance of cost and relative effectiveness, "bang for your buck" if you will, IMO an AR-15 in 5.56mm properly outfitted is a SUPERIOR defensive firearm.

[Old Ironsights]

On the cheap(er) side, there's always the Mini-14 and Mini-30...

[Tycer]

M1A is a great choice. I really like a well made AK like an Arsenal made one for their ruggedness.

[jeepnik]

Springfield M1A, Scout Squad. Tried and true action, and round. As mentioned by others, there is SOCOM, but I bought the Scout before they came out. I'll stick with it. I don't think you really gain anything in portability and handling, with the SOCOM, and I probably gain a few FPS from the extra couple of inches.

They aren't exactly cheap. And the ammo likely costs more than 5.56. But I reload, so that isn't an issue. With good optics, even the shorties will reach out and smack something with authority.

[Hobie]

I just didn't want to type this all over again. http://shootingwithhobie.blogspot.com/2 ... -duty.html

Once again, not enough friends and you've got no chance in TEOTWAWKI. Make your preparations, make friends, lots of them, learn negotiation skills, GET RIGHT WITH GOD, cross your fingers and do your best. With enough friends just about any repeating rifle will do, without friends no rifle will do enough.

[JReed]

AR-15! If shooting unarmored attackers use the 55gr varmint bullets they are designed to enter and explode leaving lots of damage. If the bad guys are wearing Mil grade body armor use the same bullet and shoot for the head and legs. The platform works.

[Streetstar]

If things are that bad --- i hope i have a little bit of advance warning .

If i have enough time, the big black "survival tool" pictured below may be my best friend over a little black rifle of any persuasion

--- that said, i'd reconsider the AR-10. DPMS and a couple others have 'em down to a manageable price point now. has all the power you want with familiar AR ergonomics (NOTE: i said I would reconsider the AR-10 for myself ---- but your choice needs to be tailored to your needs --- i dont think the weight is much of an issue so long as you don't over accesorize . I have seen many 10 pound AR's due to the plethora of tactical gear people manage to attach to them. Not much reason an empty AR-10 can't be around 8 pounds -- which is probably less than an M1A)

But OTOH, shot to shot recovery of a 5,56 platform AR is pretty darn quick

[Otto]

If i have enough time, the big black "survival tool" pictured below may be my best friend over a little black rifle of any persuasion

Good point. Around here, a a middle-aged man in a no-frills, mid-80's to mid-90's F150 with faded paint but otherwise in good condition, would be virtually invisible, which will be much more important in most of these kind of scenarios.

[Hobie]

If i have enough time, the big black "survival tool" pictured below may be my best friend over a little black rifle of any persuasion

Mine's blue...

[shooter]

AR-15 for TEOTWAWKI if fighting NATO forces. AK-47 if fighting Ruskies, Arabs, or Chi-Coms. You want what will be easy to find extra ammo and parts for. Although I'm not big on the AR types for aesthetics or recreation, I can't argue their functionality and effectiveness. Get what you are most comfortable with, but as said previously, you can't do it all by yourself, no matter how much guns and ammo you have. I have an SKS right now for that purpose, but an AR-15 is in my future now that I have steady income and am getting back on my feet. It just makes sense for me.

[JerryB]

I like Hobie's last reply, get right with God and pray for a good eye to shoot with.

[Blaine]

I don't know why anyone would turn their nose up at an AR-15 if they can't afford or handle a heavier platform.

A .308 is a better killer by design, but I'm thinking you can carry probably an AR-15 carbine and 100rnds of 5.56mm for the empty weight of any .308 platform.

I've seen the diminutive 55gr fmj smash through a 4x4 and kill what was on the other side. I've seen it eviscerate medium size game animals. The cavitation wounds left by solid body shots are in a word, gruesome. Heavier bullets get better penetration but in my book are not an improvement for anti-personnel use.

There are some better platforms out there, but in the balance of cost and relative effectiveness, "bang for your buck" if you will, IMO an AR-15 in 5.56mm properly outfitted is a SUPERIOR defensive firearm.

+1

[El Chivo]

I'm not going to read all the posts, sorry if this is redundant. But I saw in an ad that you can get an AR in .50 Beowolf - plenty of oomph there.

If defense is your concern why worry about a long distance round? Big heavy hollowpoint bullets and rapid fire should do ya.

[Old Time Hunter]

Since I do not have an AR-15 type platform...I'm stuck with this



It came with three tins of ammo too.

My F 150 is blue with a few rust spots...for camo...

[COSteve]

While I like Hobie's ranking of the AR and M1A, I'd place the M1 Carbine before the M1 Garand because I believe the situation would be biased towards ammo quantity and portability over long range knockdown power for a defensive type situation. I rely on my reloading stocks rather than assuming I could forage for ammo so I think the ability to transport large ammo quantities is a much more important factor than local availability because I'm betting that local ammo stocks would be gone in short order.

Both the AR15's 5.56/.223 and M1A's .308 score well at longer ranges so that allows for my number third choice, the M1 carbine because of it's light weight and decent power in a package that most women feel comfortable with. Those of us with small wives (5'0" & 110lbs) need to consider a good defensive weapon for smaller adults too. Both my wife and I like 30 carbine caliber because, while it's not a long range champ, it's a compact platform with high capacity magazines, uses light weight ammo, can produce a fairly high rate of fire, and it's effective at the ranges one would expect a defensive situation to be (≈150yds or less).

Also, I believe that for one to be truly prepared, one needs weapons and ammo to supply to friends as well so that the power of numbers works for you too. I'm comforted by the fact that my neighbors know of my hobby and they've stated that they would bring their food and fuel to my home in the event of an emergency and I could provide the armaments and ammunition for all of us to maintain a group protection scheme. That makes division of duties and round the clock protection a real option that a single family is usually too small to generate by themselves. There's a lot to be said for safety in numbers.

[txpete]

so you don't have to shoot him/her twice . love the front night sight.the M4 is just for back up.

[Pitchy]

I like Hobie's last reply, get right with God and pray for a good eye to shoot with.

Yep, Praise the Lord and pass the ammo.
Shoot what ever ya shoot best and have lots of ammo for it, AR-15 223 for me.

[Rusty]

I don't have any problem at all with the .223 and it's ability. When I first bought an AR in about'77 mine was a Colt AR-15 A nothin. Pencil thin barrel, ( by today's standards) no bump for left handed shooters, and it had a triangular front end. Out walking with a buddy one day we came across a junked IH pick up from about 1962, the ones with lots of real heavy metal in them. From 20 yards or so I fired a round that hit the back of the bed next to the cab, went through the back of the cab, through the seat, through the steel dash, the firewall and exited out the curved side of the hood. That seems like a pretty good bit of penetration to me.
I'm wondering with the .223's habit of making such horrid wounds on soft tissue if it wouldn't actually be better than a .308 if the .308 were punching caliber sized holes using FMJ ammo.
An article ran a few years ago in which David Tubbs was matched against several other shooters in an all around rifle match. His rifle of choice was an AR-15 chambered in .222 for the extra accuracy except the rifle didn't work in semi auto fashion, the action had to be manually operated so in general I'd say there's nothing wroong with the platform. Now I only need to work out my configuration.

[Pitchy]

I`ve had good luck with this Bushmaster, no hick-ups ever.
And some more gear.

[txpete]

I am running a stag M-4 good gun no problems and accurate with my 62 gr handloads.that said I am a 7.62 fan and the M4 would be my back up.

[Pitchy]

Well we can always had one off to the guy next to us.

[TomF]

Buy the AR and keep a 308 bolt gun handy as well.

TomF

[Ysabel Kid]

If the excement hits the spinning blade, the general plan here is for Y2K to grab the AR15 and yours truly to grab the M1A. Gives us the long/short range issue well covered. I agree with Hobie; every free citizen should have at least one AR15.

[rodeo kid]

I have an AR-15, and like Hobie think think every household should have one. I also have an AK-47 and would feel well armed with either, but if push came to shove and I could only take one, it would be the AK. I know some folks will call that unamerican but an AK will continue to fire in conditions that will cause an AR to jam. And they are inexpensive. Just my 2 cents. God Bless.

[Batman1939]

I've not given serious thought to this, but when it comes to the neighbors I'm in good company. My two nearest neighbors each have 50 BMG rifles with scopes and full auto ARs in addition to a plethora of other arms. I'm well covered by the neighbors.

[Goat]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts. As far as my neighbors go, well, this is rural Louisiana that we are talking about and there are multiple firearms in every home. I am sure I have more ammo than anyone else around but could absolutely depend on my nearest neighbor for sure. We would be sharing food, water etc. I like the variety of options offered but am more convinced than ever that the AR-15 in 5.56 is what I will likely end up with to go along with my levers. I will also watch my local pawn shop for a "not so pretty" 870 12ga in case things get real close. I like the shotgun for things that go bump in the night outside the house. For in the house I like my Glock 23 in 40cal with my 165gr Golden Saber loading. I am about to get my CCW permit again and will likely be asking questions soon about carry guns for the HOT Louisiana summers. Anyway thanks again and I will address the CCW gun in another post.
Goat