Forcing cone erosion from Lilgun?

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 1:26 am

I dont remember who, but someone mentioned that Lilgun is purported to cause erosion in a forcing cone...

Anyone know about this?

Is this just in hot loads?
Heavier bullets?

I like me some Lilgun, wouldn't want to erode a throat though.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:07 am

Jeff Quinn mentioned that.

I've heard it mentioned regarding several powders including H110/W296. True or not? Don't know. Frankly, I'm willing to keep using it and see if I have a big problem. To be noticeably different it would have to burn hotter in that portion of the bore than other powders to provide a noticeable difference. Perhaps the idea that it does do this is supported by the different pressure curve this slow burning ball powder has when compared to one of the nearest powders in application and burn rate, H110/W296.

As I said, it makes no never mind to me. I'd like to shoot enough to use up a barrel in any gun I have. I don't think it will happen.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:20 am

Hobie wrote: I'd like to shoot enough to use up a barrel in any gun I have. I don't think it will happen.

+1

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:37 am

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:06 am

Here is something that is interesting about Lil' Gun that was posted on greybeards.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/ ... ng so hot.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:03 am

I think it has allot to do with the type of rounds your loading.
If your loading lightweights trying to see how fast you can push them, I think you can expect forcing cone erosion and a little top strap cutting.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:06 pm

RKrodle wrote:Here is something that is interesting about Lil' Gun that was posted on greybeards.

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/ ... o hot[/b].

I have to wonder how fast he was shooting. L'ilGun burning noticeably hotter than H110 is NOT my experience.

The emphasis in the above quote is mine. I don't know Mr. Baker, so I can't judge the source. I just don't feel such anecdotal evidence is reliable

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:27 pm

As I said, it makes no never mind to me. I'd like to shoot enough to use up a barrel in any gun I have. I don't think it will happen. Crying or Very sad

Hobie, don't fret. If you try hard enough you can do it. I burned the forcing cone out of my Mdl 28 in less than 6K rounds. It got to spitting so bad that I had to have the barrel set back and a new forcing cone cut.

Shoots good again.

I never used H110/296 or Lil'Gun, but years ago I did use a lot of Winchester 630 ball powder. THAT stuff is what started the forcing cone erosion. From that point on it just got worse.
In the late 70s to early 80s I fried the forcing cones on another Mdl 28 and a Python with 630. The Mdl 28 I have now was the third victim. All of these were with full weight 158gr or heavier bullets. I'm not a light weight bullet fan.

Do I believe that Lil'Gun and other ball powders can cause forcing cone erosion? Absolutely.

Joe

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:50 pm

Hobie,I don't know Mr. Baker either. I have read several of his post on graybeards, he post on the freedom arms section on a semi regular basis. I don't know if this a proof load or something that he shoots at the factory or some experiment that he did. But, when the owner of Freedom Arms melts down a 83 in 50 rounds of ammo it does make you stop and think about using Lil Gun.

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:12 pm

I noticed quite a temp difference using Lil gun, so I dont use it much, but it makes the 45 do neat things.

Post by **Hobie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:39 pm

RKrodle wrote:Hobie,I don't know Mr. Baker either. I have read several of his post on graybeards, he post on the freedom arms section on a semi regular basis. I don't know if this a proof load or something that he shoots at the factory or some experiment that he did. But, when the owner of Freedom Arms melts down a 83 in 50 rounds of ammo it does make you stop and think about using Lil Gun.

THAT Mr. Baker?

Now that was dense of me. I want to hear more... Jeff, ooooooooohhhhhhh JEFF....

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:53 pm

I generally shoot 50 rounds or less in a session, and have noticed the 158gr loads over Lilgun gets a little warm. NOT as hot as Mr. Baker had, but warm.

It never seemed to get too hot to handle, and would always cool enough between cylinder loading.
So heat is the issue eh?

I have a pretty accurate group using just 16.0gr of this powder, so I won't fret it.
My cone looks fine, too.

oldgerboy · Post by **oldgerboy** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:27 pm

If I'm wrong please correct me ... Generally, loads using Lil Gun and 110/296 tend to be fairly top end ... that's where those powders really shine. Any loads that are at or near top end will cause heat. The amount can vary with the firing frequency. I've loaded some very vigorous top end loads with those powders but wouldn't have been able to physically sustain the 50 shots mentioned inorder to maintain heat like was mentioned ... besides, to continue while the revolver was that hot is irresponsible unless a life threatening situation was present.

The erosion issue was a complaint about magnum rifle cartridges also. The throat and top strap cutting were also complaints focused on the Super Mag series of cartridges chambered in the Dan Wesson revolvers.

Top end loads are going to produce heat and attack metal.

Joe's experience, assuming the loads were what I understand to be typical of loads for those powders, would be acceptable to me.

Light to medium loads aren't mentioned since they don't cause the erosion in that short a number. However, given a sufficient length of time and a high enough number of shots, even loads like that will sooner or later cause deterioration to some degree. Heat and chemical compounds attack metal.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:12 pm

Olgerboy, I do believe you summed it up neatly.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:01 am

Bob Baker can be trusted to speak honestly about his experiences. I have spent time with him and count him as a friend and I trust his word.

olgerboy is correct also, but let me add, shoot enough and you will wear the gun out.

Most of the time folks don't shoot enough to do that.

A .22 sixgun will eventually burn the forcing cone, develop end-shake and excessive cylinder gap. It only took me 30 years of shooting huge amounts of 22's .. but I finally accomplished it!

A trip to Bowen Classic Arms and the gun was better than new.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:43 am

JimT wrote:Bob Baker can be trusted to speak honestly about his experiences. I have spent time with him and count him as a friend and I trust his word.

olgerboy is correct also, but let me add, shoot enough and you will wear the gun out.

Most of the time folks don't shoot enough to do that.

A .22 sixgun will eventually burn the forcing cone, develop end-shake and excessive cylinder gap. It only took me 30 years of shooting huge amounts of 22's .. but I finally accomplished it!

A trip to Bowen Classic Arms and the gun was better than new.

Jim,

Do you perhaps know where he might have written about his experience with L'ilGun?

BTW, how's the packing going for your trip? I see that you're already there!

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:02 pm

Hobie wrote: how's the packing going for your trip? I see that you're already there!

I am not sure where he wrote about it ... but you can call him easily enough ... toll free ... 1.800.833.4432 -- tell him I sent you

I am there .. at least mentally. Everything is coming together in spite of me working on it.

30hrrtt · Post by **30hrrtt** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:10 pm

There was a problem with Lil Gun but it was limited. A recall was issued in April of 2003 for I believe one lot that caused high preassure and heat. I use it and really like it.

Peter M. Eick · Post by **Peter M. Eick** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:54 pm

Before I bought my 357 Maximum Ruger I investigated the erosion/frame cutting problem and I came across a website where a guy had experimented with an old S&W. What he found was that hitting it with a blowtorch on the frame did not do much damage at all. I just heated the frame up.

But hitting it with a high pressure sand/bead blaster with ball powder ripped the metal up pretty good. His conclusion was that it is the size and shape of the unburned ball powder hitting the frame at high speeds that does the damage and not the heat per se.

My observation of my revolvers indicates that this is plausible if not probable. I experimented with H110 in 357 mag and found that 100 rounds had left a mark on the frame of my Pre-27. Shooting 4227 or 2400 or even hot Unique loads had done nothing to it previously.

So, I am quite cautious of ball or spherical powders and try to avoid using them in revolvers if I can. I also shy away from them in rifles but I am a bit more flexible here.

Just some observations and food for thought.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:37 pm

Peter, I'm glad you added your $.02!

When I read it, a light poped on for me. I used to bead blast all sorts of stainless parts in an optical filter manufacturing process, and naturally, after a few months of use/cleaning, they needed to be replaced.

Of course this erodesforcing cones and top straps!
Now, when I put on a tight crimp and don't over load with Lilgun, I don't even see kernel remains on a target 15 feet away. When I was loading 18-19gr, and not crimping properly, I had a bunch of unburned kernels actually stick in the paper at 25 feet!

I can easily see the veocities being higher and the damage it could do directly after the cylinder. It's bead blasting with gunpowder!

I'm glad you posted on this topic.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:02 am

30hrrtt wrote:There was a problem with Lil Gun but it was limited. A recall was issued in April of 2003 for I believe one lot that caused high preassure and heat. I use it and really like it.

Are you using it in the Herrett? If so, drop me a PM please...