Headspace problems in a Win 1894 ???

[JFE]

I recently acquired a pre 64 1894 in 30/30 that seemed in good overall condition. Crisp rifling, wood in good condition and would make a perfect cast bullet shooter.

I took it out to the range for some testing and all the factory ammo I fired resulted in the primer backing out several thou out of the primer pocket. My understanding is that this is generally a sign of excessive headspace. Is this correct?

Is headspace corrected by setting back the barrel and re-chambering or is there another way to do that with these rifles?

Joe

[Gobblerforge]

It can but not necessarily. Here is another candidate for why this can happen. When you shoot, the firing pin strikes the primer and pushes the case forward in the chamber. This is only thousandths at best. The case fires and expands thus gripping the chamber and the bullet starts to leave as well as the primer due to the pressure between them. Then, usually, the case slides back a little as the pressure starts to decrease and the grip inside the chamber setting the primer back in. If you are shooting a light load, the pressure backwards can be low enough to not set the primer back in flush again. This happens regularly with my 303 Savage because I regularly shoot lower power loads in it so as to not beat it and my shoulder too much. Now mind you there has to be a little head space for this to happen but it doesn't mean there is a problem.
Gobbler

[TedH]

Like Gobbler said, it can most times be attributed to light/low pressure loads. I would suggest trying another brand of ammo first. A quick way to get a ballpark estimate on headspace is to cut a small circle of masking tape just barely smaller than the case head. Stick it on an a dummy round and see if it the bolt closes on it easily. You can add layers and get a fairly good idea what your headspace is. My masking tape is .0035" thick, so up to three layers, you're probably ok, more than that would indicate a trip to the gunsmith is in order.

[Malamute]

This is a low pressure sign. You also have to ask yourself, what could happen if there was a slightly large headspace, in a cartridge that isnt showing enough pressure to even set the case back against the bolt face. The case is sticking to the chamber walls, which is what it's supposed to do, but in this instance without enough pressure to even stretch the case. When most people hear the word "headspace" they have a panic attack. This is a huge non-issue with 30-30's. Many guns will back primers out slightly even when headspace is in spec. Then, you may have variations in case dimensions,.....

Many of the 30-30's I've had over time have backed primers out a little, It never ever caused any trouble. Much of the used brass I get from others has the primers backed out a little.

I'd only worry about headspace in a 30-30 if you are getting case separations.

[Charles]

What you describe is fairly common on older 94s. It may very well be the primers not reseating at the boys suggested. If may also be headspace. Setting the barrel back is a drastic measure for a simple problem. If it is indeed headspace there are two others ways of going at the problem.

1. You can buy oversize locking lugs to restore the headspace, or you can have the current ones hard industrial chrome plated and dress them down if necessary to restore proper lockup.

2. You can partially resize your once fired cases and that way the round will headspace on the shoulder of the case instead of the rim and the problems will disappear. I trust you know how to adjust your FL size die to size the case, but not the shoulder. This would be the easier way.

[Malamute]

2. You can partially resize your once fired cases and that way the round will headspace on the shoulder of the case instead of the rim and the problems will disappear. I trust you know how to adjust your FL size die to size the case, but not the shoulder. This would be the easier way.

I'm curious how this would work, since the case isn't setting back against the bolt face and allowing the shoulder area to "blow out"? If there isnt enough presure to even set the case back against the bolt face (actually, not overcoming the ejector spring is part of what's happening) the case isnt going to seat aginst the shoulder anytime soon. I believe this is part of the reason symptoms are so common. Winchesters have a strong ejector spring that's always pushing forward against the shell, allowing the primer to set back slightly.

Firing primed empty shells in a revolver will often result in primers protruding, and tying up the gun. It isnt a headspace problem. There has to be a certain amount of room for the gun to function, and to allow for variations in different cases. Again, the primers backing out is a low pressure symptom.

If it's a true problem with headspace, case heads would be separating and cases stretching very quickly. I've never heard of that happening on a 30-30.

[Griff]

Aye, low pressure sign. And, can an early sign of an out of spec headspace. To check headspace, use either a "go-no-go" gage for the .30-30 to simply see if it is in spec, or use "plasti-gage" for an accurate measurement.

Charles is right about the best/easiest way to reset headspce on a Winchester mdl 94.

[Charles]

Don't worry about theory, just don't resize the shoulder and see what happens. You will be pleased.

[Charles]

Oh yes... I forgot about another method to restore headspace. About twenty years ago I took a Winchester 92 (25-20) into Score-Hi gunsmithing in ABQ with serious headspace issues. The fellow there bored out the bolt face and made a bushing to fit the recess thick enough to take out the headspace. I think he soldered it in place. Long story short is has worked to perfection. It takes a Gunsmith who is a pretty good machinest, but still easier than removing the barrel, shortening the barrel shank, rechambering and reinstalling the barrel.

[JFE]

Thanks fellas for the info. Seems like there's nothing to really worry about.