Cartridge Performance from client journal

[86er]

I spent several hours compiling data on my client journal. I looked for cartridges that were 1) used on more than 5 animals, 2) were one shot kills with a recovered animal across the board. I have highlighted the cartridges that were used in lever action repeating rifles in bold black and put an asterick next to cartridges that are available in lever action repeating rifles but were not used in one in my data. I omitted a few obscure cartridges where it was used on very specific sized game or where one eccentric client used the cartridge for more than one animal on a day/multi day hunt. This includes 5mm Remington, 22/30 and 338 Sabi and 10.57 X 57mm. Where noteworthy I added how many animals and any specific facts:

There are 119 cartridges noted including shotgun slugs but not including muzzleloaded rifles. 23 cartridges out of the 119 proved 100% one shot kills on more than 5 animals. Surprisingly, none of the handgun cartridges fired from rifles made the list, and there are a lot of uses of 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 357 Mag, 454 Casull, a few Linebaugh cartridges and a few 500 S&W.

100% one shot = recovered animal cartridges from 1988-2010 clients hunts (does not include my own):

22-250 *(not used on anything over 150 pounds but had 14 animals)
244 H&H Magnum (two clients includes animals up to red stag 850 pounds 9 total)
250-3000 Savage (includes a black bear and a pierre david deer, 9 total)
280 Remington
300 Savage (16 animals - 12 bullets mentioned are all 180 grain)
307 Winchester (made the cut with exactly 6 animals)
308 Winchester (52 animals!)
325 WSM* (11)
338 Federal* (13)
340 Weatherby Magnum (26)
375 H&H Mag (61 animals! from deer to dangerous game)
38-55* Winchester (10, all with single shot rifles)
40-70 Sharps (6)
43 Mauser (I think it fits here in the list - 8 animals)
458 Win Mag (21!)
450/400 NE (11 - 6 water buffalo, 1 watusi, 1 bison + others)
450 3 1/4" NE (16 including elephant, buff, bison, hippo, hogs, nilgai)
5.6 X61 SE (6)
6.5X54 (7)
7mm Rem Mag* (70 including caribou, brown bear, zebra, bison!)
7mm STW (18)
7X64 Brenneke (8)
8mm Rem Mag (20)

[piller]

Funny that the .308 made the list and the biggest selling centerfire hunting round in America did not. Joe, don't your clients ever hunt with the .30-06? You had a client use one last September and get a great one shot kill usint a 180 grain Nosler Partition. Was she out of the mainstream? Just curious.

[86er]

30-06 was one of the top "Needs a second shot" cartridges in my data but the most popular cartridge too. Another very popular cartridge in my data is the 300 Win Mag, but it did not come out 100% either. I'm guessing either user error being afraid of recoil or too much confidence leading to less than perfect shot or bullets not up to the task.

The 45-70 has a strong showing and I was surprised it did not make the list.

[madman4570]

Good stuff Joe!
I always knew the 7MM Rem Mag was a real killer.At least for me always has been!
Surprised the .416 Weatherby or .416 Rigby wasn't on the List!
Thanks!

[Rimfire McNutjob]

... I omitted a few obscure cartridges where it was used on very specific sized game or where one eccentric client used the cartridge for more than one animal on a day/multi day hunt. This includes 5mm Remington ...

I thought I was the last person on the planet still shooting that thing. If I showed up with mine, would I get to be the "eccentric client"? I love my Remington 592.

[Ben_Rumson]

No 30-30
300 Savage

[Griff]

Joe, good info. You answered my question with your 2nd post. But raises another; what percentage of your clients ask your opinion on bullet selection BEFORE they show up?

[shooter]

Just a guess, but maybe the 30-06 and some of the other ultra popular cartridges didn't make the list precisely because of what Joe mentioned, user error. I don't want Joe to go to the trouble, and don't know if he even has the info, but I'd like to see stats on shot placement for some of the more popular rounds that didn't quite make the list. I think that some people just use them because they are popular, and those people may have been the ones that needed more than one shot. The more knowledgeable hunters that use them not just because they're popular, but because they know they're a good cartridge, are more careful with shot placement, and better hunters. They know their own limits and the limits of the particular cartridge they are shooting, and are probably the people that kept them near the passing requirements for this little experiment. Just my .02

There are some excellent cartridges that didn't make the list, but in most situations are more than capable of taking game with one well placed shot. You can dang near blow a body part of of an animal with the most powerful round available, but it won't go down with one shot unless a vital area is hit.

[Old Savage]

That the 300 Savage and 308 made the list but not the 30-06 suggests recoil tolerance as I think you may have suggested.

[86er]

Statistically there are a lot more 30-06 reports that other cartridges that were used on a few animals. The '06 was used in over 100 entries. One variable is the size of the animal from 35 pound muntjac to 2200 pound buffalo. Another is the bullets used. I see everything from 125 grain to 240 grain. Some folks will use one bullet on everything on the same trip. They come intending to shoot a deer and either switch up to or add something like an elk, buffalo or eland. Another reason is that we try to stalk close and 50 yds or less is fairly common. The same sight in point of impact and bullet type in a fast bottleneck cartridge coming from a scope rifle is very different at 25-50 yards than it is on paper at 100 yards or in effect at 200-300 yards. The '06 is great and I'd highly recommend it along with the 300 Win Mag - but the data doesn't lie. The clients are using them less effectively than other, less popular cartridges for whatever reasons. There is no real rhyme or reason, look at the 7mm Rem Mag that was used a lot and still held 100%. How'd that happen? It doesn't necessarily prove it is better than anything else, but it does prove it is very good overall.

[KWK]

Your list would have made Authur Savage proud.

Finding the modest .38-55 made me smile.

Thanks for compiling this. I look forward to further extracts.

[piller]

Joe, maybe another problem is that the .30-06 is very popular and many more people buy it than actually practice with it. It has the reputation for being a great cartridge and maybe some folks don't realize that the person holding the rifle is even more important than the cartridge that Grandpa or Dad used.

[Bruce]

My response was along the lines of what has already been posted. Where is the 30-06, the 270, the 30-30? Data is data, and that can not be ignored or challenged in this case. I don't have any problem with recoil and I can shoot, but the absolute worst experience(s) I have ever had with a (any) cartridge is with the .300 Win Mag. I tried hunting with one a few years back and had to run down every animal (deer and hogs) that I shot with it. All shots were good chest (heart area) shots and the distances varied from a mere 5 yards to no more than 75 yards. I lost one deer (my only total loss ever) that was shot at a mere 50 yards. I had very poor penetration and not one exit wound. I am not kidding. After about the fifth or sixth incident (within a week) , I was seriously concerned and got rid of the rifle.

I considered and replayed every shot many times and finally came to the conclusion that it was not shot placement, capability of the round (caliber) or anything related to the shot placement - it was the ammunition or more specifically the particular manufactor's bullet. I then reconsidered the very few past incidents where I did not get "dropped right there" performance and found that all of them had a similar theme - no matter the caliber. They all occurred with the same (factory) bullet. I know this will surprise some and may get me a little hazzing, but I no longer shoot Silvertips.

86er, I obviously appreciate your attention to collecting data and having the concern to post your findings. Is there any chance that you kept the information on the ammunition or more specifically the manufactor and bullet?

I am of the school of thought that within consideration of bullet size (caliber), bullet construction (materials), shot placement etc.., most will work when you do your job - within reason of course.

[Marlin32]

Lot of data, but not statistically significant. WAY too many differing variables to draw any conclusions. Take any of the cartridges with little data and then string them out to the number of 30/06 used, and suddenly 100% becomes more elusive.

Cannot draw conclusions that any of these calibers are any more effective then any others from this data. The data only shows this: with the following cartridges, this many times were one shot kills.

Does bring up a ton of questions and a great place to start more in depth studies.

[86er]

Marlin32 summed up what I already said. This doesnt prove anything about the cartridges. One variable I notice after reviewing 30/30 and 3006 alike is that a lot of novices used it, nearly as many as experienced hunters. There are many presumptions to be made - it was not the shooters rifle, they were unfamiliar with it, the eye relief was not set for them, they were not as skilled a marksman as a more experience shooter, they didn't carry out proper shot placement for some reason ......etc.

I do have some bullet info. There were no Silvertips fired from a 300 Win Mag. The most common bullet weight from 30-06 was 180 gr followed by 150 gr. The most popular bullet was Remington Core Lokt in 150 gr. The next most popular was Nosler Partition equally represented in 150 and 180 gr ( and there were a few 165 gr showings). 270 was better represented by Winchester ammo, but although I have the ammo brand listed I don't have a lot of bullet data. I do see 130 gr Grand Slam heavily represented along with Winchester SilverTip, Barnes TSX, etc.

[Bosco]

I would that I could recall who stated the following- "The bullet does the work" That is what so many riflemen forget. People get excited about trajectory, and love to state "I don't have to worry about hold over at 300 yards". Not that most of them have ever shot anything at 300 yards with out the help of their keyboard. I know I haven't. I have heard it well described that cartridge cases are merely gaskets. I think this is fitting. I think one of the questions becomes- What cartridge, bullet weight, bullet construction,barrel length combination has the largest "sweet spot" for the broadest range of effective expansion on different animal construction with the largest effective range variance?
That seems to be the question being sought, or is approaching the complete question.


A novice asks-What gun should I get?
Advanced-Understands that this is pretty heady stuff and not easily answered.
Boy do we ever have fun seeking the answers though.........
It is imperative to first fully understand the question BEFORE we go seeking answers, or make broad statements such as "The fill in the blank is the best!" The best at what? COMPLETE answers will be quite long. More than most will care to read and less than that will care to type so much. Hopefully many here do. Hell-of-a-lot of knowledge here.

[Bosco]

86er,
How many critters for the 280 Rem?

[86er]

280 Rem accounted for 14 animals total - 3 WTD, 2 Fallow, 2 hogs, 1 ram, 1 black bear. Five other critters deer sized or smaller.

[J Miller]

86er,

Just cos I'm a fan of the cartridge, did anyone in your data base use the .303 British cartridge? If so what was the result?

Joe

[86er]

303 Brit with 150 grain = 2 WTD, 1 Fallow, 2 rams, 2 hogs. The fallow deer was on it's feet for a bit and was shot twice. 180 grain has 2 hogs and a red stag. 215 grain has a watusi (4 shots) and a red stag (1 shot). FWIW I've use it on deer, hogs, an oryx and a bison all with 150 grain Sierra bullets. The hogs took a few shots each, mostly due to shot placement or quick follow-up instead of waiting to see what happened from the first shot. Although the # of animals and bullet weights are different, the 303 Brit and 30-30 come out the same in percentages in my data, ie: # of shot per # of animals, # shot more than once, distance animals travelled. The only difference in the data was that some animals were totally lost with 30-30 and none with 303, however there were a lot more animals with 30-30 and most of the losses were attributed to Hornady LeverEvolution ammo.

[J Miller]

86er,

Thanks, that's good info.

Joe

[Old Savage]

Bruce, those distances likely strain the limits of bullet construction with the 300 Mag.

Bosco - Rick Jamison did some extensive testing of 180 gr. 30 cal bullets at various velocities for expansion including a lot of pictures. One of the ones that came up the best was the Winchester Power Point which expanded at low velocity and held together at high velocity.

[Bosco]

Thanks OS.
I have quite and extensive library on this subject. I always enjoy reading as seeing more and more.
86er,
I am curious about any info your have regarding 338 WM. If it was used at all. I am a fan as you know.
Will call a friend who has had some very favorable although limited experience with the 300WM in MN on whitetail. I will get the details.

[fordwannabe]

86'er I don't mean to cause you a lot of work but I am interested if anybody used a 33wcf on anything and how did it fair? Thanks Tom

[86er]

I've got two requests for 33 WCF data. There are 4 animals altogether. One was a hog killed by our own 2ndovc. That hog didn't go but a few yards after being hit. There's one estate elk that was hit behind the shoulder and ran 50 yds or so where it stood for a second shot that struck in proximity to the first. There is another elk (wild - free range) that was "hit high" at 125 yds and ran down into a ravine 200 yards below. It was found later under a tree where it got up and tried to make it uphill. Another shot that hit between the shoulder blades and into the neck put it down for good. Last, there is a Blue Wildebeest. It was hit low behind the leg at 75 yards and it fell with a few steps and died. The notes indicate these were all Win lever guns (as could be expected) but there is no mention of the ammo or bullets in any of the entries.

[fordwannabe]

Thank you! I really appreciate your efforts for the whole thread and my request specifically. Tom

[Tycer]

Hasn't Ricky taken four animals with his 358? I've got one there with the 358 200 core-lokt.

[2ndovc]

I've got two requests for 33 WCF data. There are 4 animals altogether. One was a hog killed by our own 2ndovc. That hog didn't go but a few yards after being hit........ The notes indicate these were all Win lever guns (as could be expected) but there is no mention of the ammo or bullets in any of the entries.

My .33WCF boar weighed in at #150 lbs. Ammo were my handloads with the now discontinued Hornady .338, 200 grain FP. and IMR 4198(or 4895 my brain seems to locked at the moment).

He let out a big squeel, ran about 50 feet and fell over dead leaving a blood trail that a blind man could follow.



jb

[86er]

I've got good data on 358 Win but it is scattered so I'll have to compile it. It count 11 animals taken with 358 Win, 9 with lever action rifles.

[Marlin32]

Hornady ballistic tip or gummy tip or whatever you call it, accounting for some "totally lost" animals. That is what prevents me from running out and buying Marlin's 338(or 308) for that matter. I want to see different bullets first.

I have to ask, are most accounts people shooting through front shoulder or behind the shoulder soft tissue shot? Or is the data all over??

I can see where Hornady's round may cause some problems if shooting through shoulder?

I can see people using a "good bullet" but in wrong applications (same for caliber for that matter) in some of this data.

Thanks for collecting the data Joe. I would love to see a collection of recovered bullets !!!
I look at every one of mine!! But you must collect more in a week than I do in a lifetime of deer hunts. Your interest and willingness to collect data is good for all.