OT - Coral Snake Again

[Rimfire McNutjob]

My second one this month. I'm thinking about starting a farm. I wonder if there's a gov't subsidy to be had here. This fine fellow was coming out from under my kid's bike ramp in my front driveway yesterday. This is a big one ... went 34" stem to stern. He was pretty fast too as he was fully warmed up on the hot driveway down here in Florida. The next one is definitely going to be a hat band.

Apparently, the anti-venom for these is no longer manufactured. I assume you'd be put on a ventilator where you would then be on your own.

[madman4570]

Wow, that could be a bad situation right there.

[Joel]

That is a pretty snake

[Charles]

Despite the highly nuro-toxic venom, Coral snake bites are rare and fatalities almost unheard of. Here's is why,

1. Coral snakes have teeth but no fangs with which to inject their venom.
2. The poison glands are in the back of their mouths and when released it runs down a channel in the teeth where it much be chewed into the flesh of the victum. This take a little while.
3. They have small mouths and on a human must get a toe, finger or side of foot or hand for a grip.
4. Folks that get bit, will shake off the snake before it has a chance to chew the venom nto the tissue.
5. They are not an agressive snake.
6. Small children due to their size are most at risk for Coral snake bites.

Oh yes... They don't coil and strike, so you just about have to grab one to get bit. They are very pretty and not agressive at all, so little kids will often pick them up to play with. Bad idea!!!! Kids that live where these snakes do should learn "red and yellow, kill a fellow" early on in life.

They get much, much bigger in South America. In Ecudaor I once killed one four times the size of those found here in the US. He was scary, but not like the Bushmaster or Flur -de-Lance. You would get a sore neck watching out for those. The Bushmaster would be on the ground and the green Flur-de-lance would be in the trees about head high.

[DixieBoy]

Rimfire - Holy Smokes ! Two in a month !!

What the heck is going on up there ? I had friends in Sanford years ago, when I lived in Orlando. There were lots of small lakes and ponds around.

Are you all in a wetter area ? Have you figured out where these guys are breeding and living ?

Glad you're staying on top of it. Coral snakes are definitely capable of killing a youngster.

I'd love to hear what more you find out about these area snakes. - DixieBoy

P.S. Well, I see that Charles has chimed in while I was proofreading, so we've got our science lesson now too.

[Charles]

Dixieboy... The benefits of a true broad based liberal arts education, but I still can't spell. I have also lived in the tropics or deserts all of my live where snakes are serious stuff.

[rjohns94]

Charles, I don't mean to contradict but:

Coral snakes vary widely in their behavior, but most are very elusive, fossorial snakes which spend the vast majority of their time buried beneath the ground or in the leaf litter of a rainforest floor, only coming to the surface during rains or during breeding season. Some species, like Micrurus surinamensis are almost entirely aquatic and spend most of their lives in slow-moving bodies of water that have dense vegetation.

Like all elapid snakes, coral snakes use a pair of small fangs fixed in the front of their top jaw to deliver their venom. They feed on smaller snakes, lizards, frogs, and nestling birds and rodents etc. The venom takes time to fully take effect.[1]

Coral snakes have a tendency to hold on to a victim when biting, unlike vipers which have retractable fangs and tend to prefer to strike and let go immediately. Coral snakes are not aggressive or prone to biting however, and account for less than one percent of the number of snake bites each year in the United States. Most coral snake bites in the United States are legitimate occurring because of accidental contact with the snake while engaged in an outdoor activity such as gardening



They have fangs, just not retractable fangs like vipers. They don't chew, they bite. The toxen takes a while to work. Adult snakes have enough toxin to kill 4 or 5 adults.

[Charles]

Just repeating what I learned in College during the dark ages. My prof may not have been that sharp on in the right loop. I certainly don't have any "hands on" experience with them other than the few I have killed.

Why is it that folks feel the need to say.. "I don't mean to contridict"..just before they do? I don't mean to spread gossip, but...and then they do. I don't mean to be unkind..but.. then they are. etc. etc. etc.

Snakes aside, humans are far more mysterious in their behavior than any lesser creature. I guess that comes with being the top of the food chain.

[Doc Hudson]

Just repeating what I learned in College during the dark ages. My prof may not have been that sharp on in the right loop. I certainly don't have any "hands on" experience with them other than the few I have killed.

Why is it that folks feel the need to say.. "I don't mean to contridict"..just before they do? I don't mean to spread gossip, but...and then they do. I don't mean to be unkind..but.. then they are. etc. etc. etc.

Snakes aside, humans are far more mysterious in their behavior than any lesser creature. I guess that comes with being the top of the food chain.

Don't feel too bad Charles, I leaarned the same stuff when i was in Biology classes. I neithrr have nor desire to gain any hands-on experience with snakes.

[Doc Hudson]

That is a pretty snake

IMNSHO,THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A PRETTY SNAKE!!!!!
FWIW, i won't even work with snake leather.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I was always told that the Coral Snake has to "chew" on you to deliver venom but I think they've since found that the snake does indeed have a very small set of fangs that are non-retractable.

Since I have a small seven year old girl who doubles as my handle pulling automated loading press ... I killed the snake. Generally, I never kill snakes. But in this case the snake in question is too colorful, too poisonous, and too reclusive to leave around my house due to my having younger kids.

My yard is probably conducive to a large snake population. I live on 2-1/2 acres on Lake Sylvan in Sanford, FL. The whole backyard is full of various dry stacked rock walls that my wife used to build plateaus for her garden structure. There's about an 18 foot difference between the lake level and my home's floor and so she made a bunch of these plateaus to give her flat spaces to plant in lieu of the natural slope down to the water. Yeah, don't ask me how much THAT cost. It's filed away under the "Keeping the Wife Happy" category.

The 'A' marks the site of the future Snake Land Park. Yeah, that's all wet land behind my house. Home to several rather loud alligators.

[don Tomás]

According to 5/24/10 Tampa tribune:

Coral snake antivenin supply running out (link)

TAMPA - Here's something you don't want to experience while cleaning out dead brush from under your deck: a nip on the finger from a slender yellow, red and black snake.

If the color schemes follow the "red-to-yellow" motif, you could be in trouble, even if you don't feel any immediate pain.

The venom from the coral snake can take as long as 18 hours to manifest, or it could hit you right away. Left untreated, it can kill by shutting down a victim's lungs.

The good news is that there is antivenin for coral snake bites. The bad news is that the one manufacturer that made the stuff is no longer making it. Come October, the last batch of coral snake antivenin hits its expiration date.

So little antivenin is used through the course of a year it isn't profitable for drug companies to invest millions of dollars in studies, tests and manufacturing.

The federal Food and Drug Administration will test the existing antivenin batch in October and could grant permission to administer it for another year, giving researchers more time to come up with an alternative, said Cynthia Lewis-Younger, medical director for the Florida Poison Information Center in Tampa.

The center has set up an information page on its website, www. poisoncentertampa.org.

"We believe it is likely that the existing (antivenin) lot will be extended for another year," Lewis-Younger said. "However, at some point, probably next year, we will have exhausted all that antivenin."

Medical care providers are concerned about the antivenin issue but hopeful another one will be developed to take its place, Lewis-Younger said. Researchers are working on three possible alternatives, including Coralmyn, which is the most likely antivenin to take the place of the existing one, she said. None of the three have been approved by the FDA.

The problem lies in the cost to develop a vaccine that isn't used that often, she said. The national average is about 100 coral snake bites a year.

"The risk, if you don't get treatment, is that you may die," she said. "If you do go into a hospital and don't get the antivenin, you may end up on a ventilator for many weeks. It's not a good alternative and it's much more expensive than having the antivenin."

Coral snake bite victims go through at least three 10 milliliter vials of antivenin. Each costs $1,560, Lewis-Younger said.

Over the past 10 years, she said, Florida has led the nation in coral snake bites, with an average of slightly fewer than 50 a year. Still, that's not a significant number.

"It's a pretty rare bite," she said. Florida's coral snake bites usually are in the central part of the state, including Hillsborough and Polk counties. She called the area "a hotbed of where bites occur."

The antivenin about to expire was made by Wyeth Pharmaceuticals, which recently merged with Pfizer. Wyeth no longer manufactures the antivenin.

In July 2009, an FDA advisory board gave Coralmyn, the most likely alternative, a fast-track for accelerated approval, but no manufacturers have stepped up to invest what could be as much as $5 million for the required studies.

Coralmyn is made in Mexico. Jim Maister, clinical pharmacist in the critical care unit of the University Community Hospital, said that although it is not yet approved by the FDA, use of Coralmyn is allowed in cases when a person's life is at stake.

Patients with coral snake bites who seek treatment at University Community won't have to wait long for the antivenin, as vials of antivenin can transported to the hospital within an hour or so, he said.

Still, he said, the October expiration of the only approved coral snake bite antivenin could become an issue, especially in Florida, a natural home to the deadly snake.

"It is a bit concerning," Mainster said.

[CJM]

Both Charles and Mike are sorta correct. Vipers have hollow fangs and inject the venom directly through the fang, Coral snakes have a solid fang with a groove on the backside that only sorta directs the venom into the wound. That's why coral snakes bite and hang on, they aren't chewing (which requires molars), but they need a long "bite" time to get the venom into the wound. The fangs are also toward the rear of the mouth, not right upfront like a viper. Vipers can strike, inject the venom, then release; so they don't get their fragile fangs broken, all in a blink of the eye. Of course sometimes the timing goes wrong on vipers and the injection of the venom doesn't happen.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Good info CJM. I'm wondering if Coral Snakes have the same type of teeth as other snakes ... the Banded Water Snake for example. When I was a kid, hunting snakes in Florida, one of those Banded Water Snakes bit me in the web of my hand between my thumb and forefinger. It took a friend and two large flat bladed screwdrivers to finally pry him off. I've read references that say you can simply shake a snake off, but if a Coral Snake has the angled teeth and determination of a peeved Banded Water Skake ... there will be no simple shaking off of the snake.

Oh yeah, check this out. I'm ordering a bottle for the next one.

[madman4570]

Remember my dad telling of when he was in the service they had survival training in the Louisiana swamps and this fellow grabbed what he thought was a stick in a pool of water(said they used to beat their pants on the water to drive away the cottonmouths)anyway the coral snake bit him on the edge of the wrist and about 5 hours later was dead meat.

Also said one guy when putting on his boots inserted his foot on a shed cottonmouth fang as was pulled out of training and was very sick for over a week!

[Batman1939]

Rimfire, Had you skinned the coral snake you killed, put the skin in a plastic bag and frozen it, you could use the Snaketan on the thawed skin when your order arrived. Now you will have to wait for another encounter. The one in you photo seemed quite large and would have made a good hat band.

[3leggedturtle]

Are there any laws about killing them. You dont have to do the shoot and bury technique. Is a gourgeous snake but know what you mean about bright colors and kids. When will the hat band be done. 3leg

[RIHMFIRE]

thats 2 too many!
this one looks kinda thin...
had one slither right by me in the wood....
about 18" away from my foot...
he was an inch thick and 3' long!
quick sucker too!

[madman4570]

RIHMFIRE,
I think if it was me and I wanted to continue living where you are ??

Supposedly right now a 10mm vial of Coral snake antivemon goes for around $1250 and it takes three to usually work.
I would see how long the shelf life is on that stuff. If it has a very long shelf life I would buy me three vials
and have them saved for me.(or save em myself)Because your right by end of 2010 they say none will be around.

$3750 is cheap insurance compared to months on a ventilator/and or death.
Dude,thats too close with kids around.
Also,if you kill one(a severed head can still bite from reflex)

And--------If you think they cant just bite you quick-----------read this!
Notice they say since {antivenom has been available}about the death rate---
http://lethalapp.com/news/2009/07/coral ... n-florida/

[rjohns94]

sorry if I offended and my choice of words was not acceptable.

[Rusty]

It seems that twice I have seen coral snakes there has been a mate close by. Once was years ago in Ft.Myers while we were grading a road and one was uncovered by a grader blade on the back of the tractor. A second was found further down the road.
Then about 25 years ago I killed one while clearing my own property I live on now and a short while later saw a second one sliding off through the trash I was uncovering. I wonder if this would be considered conclusive research?

[Ysabel Kid]

So, how did you kill it?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

So, how did you kill it?

I struck it across the neck with a hoe. I would typically employ the .22 Magnum CCI shotshell, like the one a couple of weeks back, but this one was on my concrete driveway and I was worried that the shot might bounce about. My kids were nearby watching. One of my boys walked up near it in his flip-flops when I had it pinned down. I promptly let him know that being shoeless near a Coral snake was all kinds of stupid.

I only struck it once. It was quite disoriented afterward and turned and bit itself twice. It expired shortly thereafter ... I assume from the strike breaking it's back or neck. Actually, I guess I'm not exactly sure where the back stops and the neck begins on a snake like this. These things are very uniform and sort of just end in a small head ... unlike most snakes with a very defined set of jaws.

[Ysabel Kid]

Good. I don't usually like to kill things minding their own business, and I have no problem with snakes in general, but I won't tolerate a poisonous one anywhere in the same area that my family is in. Wise choice on the dispatching method!

[fatoldfool]

Very interesting posts to me. I didn't realize that coral snakes grew that large. Of course there are none in my area. I do have to watch for copperheads. Yesterday a 5 ft. blacksnake went up on the roof and into the attic of my shanty on the farm, where it caught a mouse or bird. Today I went to start a lawn mower and a garter snake was coiled up on the flywheel under the mesh. I saw him just as I hit the starter and was able to shut it off so he wasn't injured, but he sure was scared!

[DixieBoy]

Rimfire - Wow, I've learned all sorts of stuff since I saw your post before heading off to work.

I don't remember any of the specifics, but back in the early 70's I heard about a fatal coral snake bite in Florida. It was supposed to have involved kids, who'd discovered what they thought was a really pretty little snake, and were playing with it. One little boy was said to have died in this incident, but again, I have no specifics. I don't doubt for a minute that sort of thing has happened in the past.

Can't blame you one bit for removing this very real hazard from your kids' playing area.

Charles, I enjoyed your comments, especially your experiences down south in the tropics. I've read that the Fer de Lance you mentioned was one really deadly customer. And the Bushmaster ain't one to mess with either. Glad none of those bad boys ever put the bite on you !

This is one of the more interesting OT threads in a while. I love when I learn stuff here. - DixieBoy

[Lawyer Daggit]

Australian snakes do not inject venom either, they deposit a pool of it on and around the bite.

[piller]

In the Army's Jungle Training we were taught that the Bushmaster was very aggressive. The one we saw certainly was, but a Sargeant who chewed Red Man killed it with tobacco juice spit into the snakes mouth from about 6 feet. The snake raised its head and opened its mouth to hiss and in return received a very large glob of tobacco spit. I guess the nicotine is toxic to snakes as this one started thrashing and pretty quickly died. Admittedly, if someone spit a bunch of tobacco juice into my mouth, I would go into convulsions, too. Fortunately we didn't see and Fer-de-Lance snakes, but we watched out for them. They were called the 2-step because supposedly after they bit you you took 2 steps and died.

[madman4570]

I was told by a Marine Green Beret(relative)that served 2 tours in Nam that actually the "2 stepper snake" over there in fact was actually fabricated to keep the soldiers on the edge and keep their senses sharp.

For sure though they got a ton of deadly snakes that could probably kill without anti-venom in several hours.

[piller]

That sounds like the military. The Fer-de-Lance is dangerous, but 2 steps does seem a bit much. I have never seen any coral snakes around here, and Texas is supposedly in their territory. I have seen 1 copperhead, but by the time I got back with the hoe, it was gone. Copperheads are poisonous, but I have not heard of a healthy adult being killed by one. Even garter snakes have a type of venom as it is used to help start the digestion process on their prey. The venom of most snakes is not able to harm humans or large mammals, and why some snakes like the coral snake have such potent venom is something I don't understand. I generally leave snakes alone as they serve a useful purpose of keeping rodent populations down, but the ones I know to be poisonous are not on my list of things to allow to live. I guess that I am a little afraid of the poisonous ones, maybe that is why I kill them if I can.

[Charles]

The Bushmater is a rattlesnake with no rattles. They can get quite large, but i don't know the limits. I killed only one, and its head was as big as a large man's fist. I was staying in a hut in Columbia that was six feet off the ground, and one morning it was coiled at the bottom of the steps.

The Fer-de-Lance is a small green snake that hangs out in trees about head high. When you go by they drop and strike. Humans get bit because other jungle critters are much lower to the ground. I don't know about two step, but the natives told me a bite was a certain death sentence in short order. I have seen one or two of these guys while hunting with the Indians. They were pointed out to me before I got to them.

I understand there are some snakes (Krite) in Viet Nam, that makes the Fer-de-lance seem like a milk snake.

I hate snakes in general

[Machado]

15 years ago when I moved to my then-new house nearby land was infested with fer-de-lance (bothrops jararaca) and every week or so in summer I'd find one or two coiled in the shade. Fer-de-lance bite is exceedingly bad news, and my wife hates them and all other snakes. We killed them all. Doc Hudson is right, there's no such thing as a pretty snake and I do go out of my way to shoot them - all of them. If I can't reach them I burn them. I've seen what snakes can do to children. Spreading calcium carbide generously around your living compound will keep snakes and scorpions out - until it rains.