45-70 or 45-90

[twoguns]

If your loading black powder, that's a no-brainer. If we are using modern powders, why would a 45-90 chamber be better? I'm wrestling with this decision for my Browning 1886 which will only shoot modern powders. It looks like you can pound your shoulder plenty good with a 45-70.

[86er]

When I went elephant and buffalo hunting earlier this year I loaded the 45-90 with 450 grain bullets going 2100 fps. I couldn't do that with the 45-70. In that rifle I loaded 430 grain Punch at 1740 fps or 405 grain softs and solids at 2000 fps. I killed one of each animal with each cartridge but the 45-90 had a noticable edge.

[Griff]

My Browning 1886 in .45-70 can shoot black powder loads. No problem. I can get the 405 grainers to just about 1500fps by using 3F Goex. I don't understand why you say your Browning 1886 can only use modern powders?

[1886]

As Joe stated, case capacity advantage goes to the 90. 1886.

[Malamute]

I'm ok with a 400 gr @ 1850 fps, which is well below what the 86 is capable of. Plenty for grizzly country where I live, and they are not that tough to shoot rapid repeat shots on moving targets. If you're going to Africa, it may be usable, but in the states, even Alaska, I don't feel the need.

BTW, in the 86 action, you can load 45-70 with the bullets seated out to 90 length and not have the brass and chambering expense, if you have any bullets that work in that fashion. There's a fair bit of unused dead space at the end of a round in an 86 action chambered in 45-70. 500 gr bullets can seat out with the same powder space as 400's, something the Marlins can't do, and the 90 brass doesnt give an advantage with.

[twoguns]

My Browning 1886 in .45-70 can shoot black powder loads. No problem. I can get the 405 grainers to just about 1500fps by using 3F Goex. I don't understand why you say your Browning 1886 can only use modern powders?

I did not mean what I wrote.

I meant to write that I bought this rifle to shoot and hunt with modern powder. I have other rifles that I shoot with black.

[twoguns]

BTW, in the 86 action, you can load 45-70 with the bullets seated out to 90 length and not have the brass and chambering expense, if you have any bullets that work in that fashion. There's a fair bit of unused dead space at the end of a round in an 86 action chambered in 45-70. 500 gr bullets can seat out with the same powder space as 400's, something the Marlins can't do, and the 90 brass doesnt give an advantage with.

I'm pretty sure my Browning 1886 45-70 chamber-no-throat-little-leade will not allow me to do that. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=24626

[1886]

BTW, in the 86 action, you can load 45-70 with the bullets seated out to 90 length and not have the brass and chambering expense, if you have any bullets that work in that fashion. There's a fair bit of unused dead space at the end of a round in an 86 action chambered in 45-70. 500 gr bullets can seat out with the same powder space as 400's, something the Marlins can't do, and the 90 brass doesnt give an advantage with.

I'm pretty sure my Browning 1886 45-70 chamber-no-throat-little-leade will not allow me to do that. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=24626

Ditto! 1886.

[Malamute]

Throating reamers are't hard to come by. Some bullets have narrower noses and go iunto the rifling also. But, as I mentioned, if you have bullets that work for you. The old govt type 500 gr bullets chambered fine in my 86's seated to max length in an 86. I have a few various bullets with the crimp groove in different locations, one 400 giving about '90 length when seated. Havent checked the throat clearance yet with them tho.

What are you wanting to hunt with your 86?

[twoguns]

Throating reamers are't hard to come by. Some bullets have narrower noses and go iunto the rifling also. But, as I mentioned, if you have bullets that work for you. The old govt type 500 gr bullets chambered fine in my 86's seated to max length in an 86. I have a few various bullets with the crimp groove in different locations, one 400 giving about '90 length when seated. Havent checked the throat clearance yet with them tho.

What are you wanting to hunt with your 86?

I have spoken with a 'smith that has one of PO Ackley's old 45-70 throating reamers that will give me a .200+ throat exactly at groove diameter and I think this would allow me to use a wider selection of bullets. The reason I asked the Q was I wondered if the extra .3 inches of cartridge capacity over this freebore was overkill considering that I will only be using using modern powders. I've got a 45-90 1885 and have hundreds of casings so brass is not the issue. Elk would probably be my biggest pursuit with this rifle. But I'd like to launch a few heavy weights at longer range targets for fun. I'm not sensitive to recoil. thanks for your responses - guys.

[Don McDowell]

If your not shooting blackpowder in a singleshot rifle the advantage goes to the 45-70. You have the ability with smokeless powders to make all the bullet weights run way faster than needs be.
I quite frankly don't understand the drive to make a 45-70 into a 458lite. There's not many creatures on this continent and quite a few others that can keep a 405 gr cast bullet inside it on a broaside shot under 150 yds. I know of one fella that recently shot a buffalo head on with a 45-70 lever gun loaded with a 405 gr bullet at bp velocity. That bullet penetrated way over 4ft of buff, and the buff died right then and there.

[Leverluver]

For the times you DON'T want to load to 45-90 lengths, that freebore may be counterproductive. Cast bullets don't like freebore if the bullet doesn't fill that freebore. Seated normally, a standard cast will have to jump that gap and try to engage the rifling "on the fly". That is not conducive to accuracy. If I felt it was necessary to magnumize the 45-70, I'd order a custom, tow diameter mold if necessary to gain that length rather than add freebore. Nothing wrong with adding a little taper to that radical ledge on the end of the chamber, but think long and hard before you freebore a cast bullet gun. Most cast do their best work snugged up against the rifling.

[Doc Hudson]

The best advise i can give you is to tell you the same thing Tom Sargis told me a dozen of more years ago. It made sense to me and I hope it will make sense to you.

Stick with the .45-70. It has greater accuracy. It is more economical to load. And it is less temperamental in load development.

Granted you can shoot .45-70 cartridges in a .45-90 chamber, but the longer bullet jump will probably cause accuracy problems.

It might no longer be true today, but Tom also pointed out the impossibility of finding factory ammo for the .45-90's, .45-110s and .45-120's.

He also pointed out that with smokeless powder there was absolutely no advantage in the longer cases. As he told me in the days of blackpowder the only way to increase power was to increase the powder charge or increase caliber. With today's smokeless powders the .45-70 has no problem out-performing the blackpowder .45-120's, and with smokeless powder the .45-120's still don't outperform the .45-70.

Now this is Doc Hudson's opinion, not Tom Sargis'.

If you are going to shoot nothing but the Holy Black Stuff, get any of the Big .45's that trip your trigger. But if you are even going to toy around with that smokeless stuff, stick with a .45-70, it will be lots less trouble.

BTW, just in case you are unfamiliar with Tom Sargis, he is a well known gunsmith and competitive Blackpowder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette Shooter . He was also a fellow columnist at the late lamented http://www.earp.com.

[peabody]

The best advise i can give you is to tell you the same thing Tom Sargis told me a dozen of more years ago. It made sense to me and I hope it will make sense to you.

Stick with the .45-70. It has greater accuracy. It is more economical to load. And it is less temperamental in load development.

Granted you can shoot .45-70 cartridges in a .45-90 chamber, but the longer bullet jump will probably cause accuracy problems.

It might no longer be true today, but Tom also pointed out the impossibility of finding factory ammo for the .45-90's, .45-110s and .45-120's.

He also pointed out that with smokeless powder there was absolutely no advantage in the longer cases. As he told me in the days of blackpowder the only way to increase power was to increase the powder charge or increase caliber. With today's smokeless powders the .45-70 has no problem out-performing the blackpowder .45-120's, and with smokeless powder the .45-120's still don't outperform the .45-70.

Now this is Doc Hudson's opinion, not Tom Sargis'.

If you are going to shoot nothing but the Holy Black Stuff, get any of the Big .45's that trip your trigger. But if you are even going to toy around with that smokeless stuff, stick with a .45-70, it will be lots less trouble.

BTW, just in case you are unfamiliar with Tom Sargis, he is a well known gunsmith and competitive Blackpowder Cartridge Rifle Silhouette Shooter . He was also a fellow columnist at the late lamented http://www.earp.com.

wow, my uncles name was Doc Hudson