bad experience with .45-70

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:11 pm

i have a friend who shot a deer three times with a .45-70 stuffed with leverlution. the range was about 125-150 yards. the first shot was a lung shot, the second was a hip shot and the last shot was a texas heart shot as the deer was leaving. the only shot that penetrated was the last as it hit the bung hole and was found just at the diaphram. the other two hits were surface wounds with no penetration. several men saw the deer and testify to the performance of the bullets. the guy was seriously discouraged. yesterday he shot a deer and it went down. he saw it again a couple minutes later standing there and he shot it again. this time it was at about 100-125 yards. he came and got me, i was hunting on a nearby ridge. we tracked for two hours on it. we called a couple guys in with dogs and they worked on it. we went back to the original stand and looked at the blood that came out. we found lung and bone. but here is the kicker. there were two bucks with two blood trails. we tracked the second trail and spent several hours trailing it. in all total the first deer was trailed for a little over one mile before the blood quit. the dogs picked it up and never did find it. they found truck tracks and suspect another hunter shot and picked it up as the dogs lost it on the road. the second deer we tracked we tracked it for just under a mile and the deer gelled up. we had a wedding to go to as i am a pastor and we left it to the dog handlers. they never found the second deer. these two deer was hit with a remington hollowpoint bullet.

my buddy was ready to cry as he has never had this level of difficulty. he is a professional bow shooter and has gun hunted all his life. he is revered for his woodsmanship. the guys that came out were just as dumbstruck as he was. we shot the rifle that afternoon to see if the scope was off. it wasn't. well it won't happen again as he will not use the rifle again.

i now am the proud owner of a .45-70. i have always read good reports of it, but this has rattled me. this guy is good...very good.

now my question have any of you had any problems like this.

had i read or heard about this i would automatically attribute this to hunter error, but this situation i believe there is something else such as bullet performance that was seen in the first deer.

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:16 pm

I don't know much about the Leverlution bullets, but there are bullets available in that calliber that can penetrate a deer.

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:19 pm

you got it i am going back to black powder with the cartridge and loading a lead slug as close to original design. just to let readers know my intentions.

also the gun is a 22 inch h&r. i know it isn't top shelf, but i got the gun and will have great fun with it.

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:33 pm

also the gun is a 22 inch h&r.

I fondled one of those just yesterday!

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:51 pm

I wouldn't use blackpowder. You'll never get all that nasty stuff out of the receiver. The Remington 405 grain factory load, or an equal handload using Varget would be much better. Don't waste game with lung shots. Break the front shoulders.

The NEF Handi Rifle is an excellent weapon.

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:08 pm

I have no problem busting cinder blocks with the Leverevolution ammo at 100yards. The Winchester 300gr hollowpoint also does great as does the 250gr Barnes X-Bullet. I don't see how the deer could have walked away, but the don't walk away very good if their shoulders are broken.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:24 pm

The truth is that bullet manufacturers sometimes make bullets that do not perform as they are intended. I can assure you that XTP's do much better today than their original 300 grain .45 XTP's did. kind enough to finally send me a letter explaining that they had somehow "lost" the failed (basically blown apart) bullets I sent them. However, once again, they did improve them afterwards! I bought some of the later manufactured ones, found them satisfactory, and I still use them when I want jacketed bullets.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:34 pm

I'd have to chalk that up as a freak incident or poor shot placement. I've never seen a deer walk out of sight that was hit squarely with a 45-70, regardless of what bullet was used.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:09 pm

TedH wrote:I'd have to chalk that up as a freak incident or poor shot placement. I've never seen a deer walk out of sight that was hit squarely with a 45-70, regardless of what bullet was used.

I have seen deer hit hard with a solid lung shot, go out of sight, but usually not far, and there is usually a heavy blood trail. The first deer my son killed was with a Ruger #1 in 45/70 shooting a 300gr Hollowpoint factory load. Range was about 80yd. He hit it a little far back but still a solid lung shot. It ran maybe a hundred yards and some of it up a steep hill, but a blind man could follow the blood trail.

All of my hits with the 45/70 have dropped the deer right on the spot, but I was always hitting shoulders/chest, etc. Same with the 444 Marlin, but I am sure it is just a matter of time, until I hit one that runs a ways, but probably not very far.

I see no reason to use the Leverlution Bullets in the 45/70, there are plenty of other choices that have a proven track record. Plus I want that big blunt metplate, we don't need trick bullets for the 45/70.

Tommy Reb · Post by **Tommy Reb** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:19 am

I use 300 grain Remington JHP's at about 2000 fps in my Browning 1886 and 1874 Shiloh Sharps. About 20 yards is the greatest distance I have ever had a whitetail make it after a heart/lung shot with that. Most were much less.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:42 am

I have no reason to doubt the story, but I would say that's the first time I've heard of a deer needing more than one properly placed shot out of any of the big bores.....BTW, I've heard other stories of the Leverevolution in 45-70 not doing it's job properly.......

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:25 am

Just my opinion but but I don't shoot anything under 400 grains from a 45/70 and prefer heavier and prefer cast, I think they had it right 135 years ago.

ken n · Post by **ken n** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:26 am

the

Scott Young wrote:...the first shot was a lung shot, the second was a hip shot and the last shot was a texas heart shot as the deer was leaving. the only shot that penetrated was the last as it hit the bung hole and was found just at the diaphram. the other two hits were surface wounds with no penetration. several men saw the deer and testify to the performance of the bullets..

Your friend should send the bullets to Hornady with the story and contact info of the witnesses. I'm sure Hornady would want to know of any problems. With the post mortem of the first deer and witnesses there is no doubt something was wrong with the bullets. Of all calibers the 45/70 is the one of the least expected to fail like this. With the performance of the Leverevolution ammo it puts extra stress on the bullet than the 45/70 normally does and if there were any defects in the manufacture a faster terminal velocity would be more likely to expose them.

I'd definately let Hornady know so they could investigate.

Ken

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:37 am

I agree with 'JARO, heavy cast bullets will get the job done. I have used Cast Performance and they are tops!!!!! Art

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:42 am

The only problem I see with using cast bullets on soft skinned game is that they probably won't expand at all. That's good on big bears and some African game, but not deer.

The Remington 405 grain bullet is perfect for most applications IMO.

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 5:56 am

Swampman wrote:The only problem I see with using cast bullets on soft skinned game is that they probably won't expand at all. That's good on big bears and some African game, but not deer.

The Remington 405 grain bullet is perfect for most applications IMO.

If you take a hard cast lead bullet and blow a .45 calaber hole through the dear , does it matter if it expands or not ? It is pretty much the same size , as a .30 caliber after it expands ?

If I had been the guy , I would kept the rifle and gave away the Leverution ammo .

My guess is Leverution is a solution in search of a problem . Something " new " made to sell ?

God bless
Wyr

86er · Post by **86er** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 am

I shot a whitetail deer at around 50 yds with a 300gr Win Supreme Nosler Partition Protected Point 45-70. The shot looked good, but I felt it was a little far back, seemingly in the middle of the deer. The animal went about 20 yards and bedded down. I waited 1/2 hour and went to where I saw it bed. There was a blood trail from point of impact to the bed. There was a small puddle of blood in the bed. No deer - I followed a decent blood trail for another 25 yards and it disappeared! This was red blood with no odor, and I did not locate any tissue, fecal matter or stomach content. Came back in the morning with deer dogs and the Deer Search team. The dogs followed a trail for a 1/2 mile in cattails and lost it. No deer. Who knows what happened? That does not make the 45-70, the ammo or the rifle unworthy of being taken deer hunting. I blame myself for not doing things different but even my shot was not the worst shot I've seen and should have kept the deer down to be recovered. Looks like you got a nice rifle out of the deal.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:46 am

Swampman wrote:I wouldn't use blackpowder. You'll never get all that nasty stuff out of the receiver. The Remington 405 grain factory load, or an equal handload using Varget would be much better. Don't waste game with lung shots. Break the front shoulders.

The NEF Handi Rifle is an excellent weapon.

Yeah, that black powder never works worth a darn.

These are deer taken with black powder and a 522gr Gov't bullet just this year on our place......ONE SHOT EACH:

Anybody who tells you that you cannot get the black powder fouling out of an action, has utterly no experience with black powder.

gcs · Post by **gcs** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:07 am

" Don't waste game with lung shots"

Huh?
Any critter I've ever shot in the lungs wasn't "wasted", just dead, ate them too.

Something went wrong, but sometimes things do, I have a hard time figuring ANY bullet out of a 45/70 can't kill a little ol deer.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:19 am

This could just be bad luck, plain and simple.
I find it amazing that any deer could take such a large chunk of lead to the boiler room and still run out of site, but stranger things have happened.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:22 am

A couple things:

1. I've never used that fancy leverrevolution stuff and never plan to. There's just no need to.

2. I haven't used the Winchester 300 grain JHP recently, but did about 12 years ago and decided to never use them again. The ones I used just exploded .... way too fragile.

3. If you want to use a hollow point, use the Gould 330 grain cast. They seem to hold together better.

4. I only use flat nose or round nose. All of my deer I've shot with the 45-70 were with either round nose or flat nosed bullets and all of them went right through.

5. No need for speed with the heavy bullets. Two of my deer were at 185 yards and the 420 grain cast bullets were only doing about 1,100 fps when they finally arrived at the target and just passed right through those 200 pound Whitetails.

6. Speed wrecks more meat.

7. No need for expansion with the 45-70. I doubt any of my bullets expanded much, if at all, for any of the deer I've shot with it. The flat-nosed bullet at .458 is expansion enough.

I really like the 45-70. I've had five different ones and still have two that I doubt I will ever part with.

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:27 am

THIS DOES NOT SURPRISE ME ONE WHIT AT ALL !! THEY TOOK ONE OF THE BIG--BIG!!!--ADVANTAGES OF A LARGEBORE LEVERGUN'S CARTRIDGES, FLAT NOSED BULLETS, AND SCREWED IT ALL UP WITH SOMETHING MEANT TO BE USED IN HIGH VELOCITY RIFLES, SPITZER BULLETS. IT IS A RATHER HALF VAST DESIGN OF A SPITZER BULLET TOO I MIGHT ADD.
AS FAR AS THEM BEING FLATTER SHOOTING OVER 300[?] YARDS I WOULD ANSWER WITH AN OLD EPITHET THAT FITS THE SITUATION PERFECTLY: B F D !!! G M A B !!!! ARE WE ALL THAT GULLIBLE...IGNORENT....MAYBE EVEN STUPID TO NOT RECOGNIZE MARKETING BULLSHIQ WHEN WE SEE IT.
AND NOW WE HAVE SPITZER BULLETS FOR OUR SIXGUNS !!!!!!!!!! OH GLORY BE AND HALLELUJAH, HOW DID ELMER EVER KEEP BODY AND SOUL TOGETHER WITHOUT THESE ???

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:08 pm

Sorry, Scott...those deer don't look as dead as they should be.....

Ravenman · Post by **Ravenman** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:14 pm

KirkD wrote:A couple things:

1. I've never used that fancy leverrevolution stuff and never plan to. There's just no need to.

2. I haven't used the Winchester 300 grain JHP recently, but did about 12 years ago and decided to never use them again. The ones I used just exploded .... way too fragile.

3. If you want to use a hollow point, use the Gould 330 grain cast. They seem to hold together better.

4. I only use flat nose or round nose. All of my deer I've shot with the 45-70 were with either round nose or flat nosed bullets and all of them went right through.

5. No need for speed with the heavy bullets. Two of my deer were at 185 yards and the 420 grain cast bullets were only doing about 1,100 fps when they finally arrived at the target and just passed right through those 200 pound Whitetails.

6. Speed wrecks more meat.

7. No need for expansion with the 45-70. I doubt any of my bullets expanded much, if at all, for any of the deer I've shot with it. The flat-nosed bullet at .458 is expansion enough.

I really like the 45-70. I've had five different ones and still have two that I doubt I will ever part with.

Kirk,
my thinking about the 45/70!

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:36 pm

I was waiting till the guy's that know what they are talking about to have their say. Now I have no experiance what so ever of the 45/70 used at critters but my gut feeling is exactly as ScottT and KirkD says period.
That poor guy is an archer so he must have some respect for the old ways, it's just a shame he did not try the 45/70 as God intended!
Good luck to him next time, we and /or kit do srew up sometimes.
Nath.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:27 pm

BlaineG wrote: Sorry, Scott...those deer don't look as dead as they should be.....

Oops! I have eaten about half of one of them!!!!!!!

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:34 pm

ken n wrote:
"Your friend should send the bullets to Hornady with the story and contact info of the witnesses."

Write Hornady, yes. Send bullets, I question. If he desires them for his own collection - as I did, I would suggest not sending them. They gave me all sorts of assurances that they would return my clearly "failed" (exploded to small pieces) bullets so I finally sent them. However, in spite of assurances of their care for my property they still managed to lose them!

Yeah, it is true: They sent me a nice letter. But they sure were pretty "non-caring" on the phone when I talked with them about the "lost" bullets.

Please do not misunderstand me. IMHO: Their current 300 grain .45 XTP's and their 180 grain .357 XTP's are great revolver bullets. I still purchase them, still use them, and recommend them for jacketed bullets. But I will never again sent them anything from my collection.

I guess maybe this is an invite to receive another heavy-handed e-mail from Steve H., but I do not believe they want examples of their failures in the hands of any of their customers. Of course this is, again, IMHO!

Grace and Peace.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:40 pm

it's not the gun, it's the bullet. get the right bullet and the gun will put it there. it's not the caliber, it's the wrong bullet. use the right bullet for the job..,

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:50 pm

I wish folks would quit trying to buy performance or make things into things that they are not.

The .45-70 was fine as it was originally and those pedestrian ballistics killed many a horse, man, deer, buffalo, griz and whatever.

Then folks start screwing with things, I guess they want the old gal to shoot flatter, so the cut down on bullet weight and try to use a trick bullet. What they maybe should have done is learned how to shoot better instead?

Who knows? That Leverlution stuff may be the Second Coming, but I doubt it. This old cartridge does not need a facelift, it needs a rifleman who loves it for what it is and uses it accordingly.

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:54 pm

Hmmmm, I've never had that happen with a 350 gr. FNSP. Nope. Not even once has anything ever attempted to run, walk or drag itself away.

Comal Forge · Post by **Comal Forge** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:57 pm

I have no experience with Leverlution ammo but I have killed a bunch of deer with the 45-70 (both Sharps and Marlin 1895). I cannot recall ever finding a slug in a deer although I did once find a perfect mushroom in a hog, this from a 300 gr Sierra. They always pass through whitetails, no matter which direction - most of these were a custom flat point 440 gr cast lead bullet. If I could only keep one gun, it would be in 45-70...

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:05 pm

Things happen. I never used the LE & probably wont.
I did have trouble before with Win 300 grain HP factory stuff. I shot a buck from above & 30 feet away right behind the near shoulder & the bullet came apart.
The deer dropped like a brick but came back alive as I circled it upon aproach. As soon as I got in his line of sight he perked right up & tried running off. It wasn't working right as there was massive dammage to the spine area but I was too close to be comfy & shot him again.
Anyway when we took him apart we found the bullet didn't make it into the deer. Scooped out a softball sized hunk of shoulder/backstrap & thats it, nothing in the cavity.

Personally I'll take a lung shot every time if I can. The shoulders have meat on them & I'v never lost a gun shot deer yet. Even hardcast thru the lungs drops them in my limited experience. I should say that since that single 300 grainer every deer has been taken with pretty anemic 405 grain loads going 1100 fps or so. Works just fine IMO.

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:20 pm

I apologize in advance for this post I'm about to write, bvecause I know you guys are being serious and all, BUT...

I guess this answers the question of whether or not the .45/70 is an adequate caliber to carry if you think you might run into BIGFOOT, viewtopic.php?t=2368&postdays=0&postord ... ot&start=0

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:40 pm

I have never shot a deer with my 45-70. I have killed deer with my .45 patched round ball(.451) Kentucky with 90 grains of fffg.Not one lived to tell the tale when they got home. One was a LUNG shot with a blood trail that looked like two spray guns for about 30 yards. He was very dead when I walked up to him.Who knows, a 45-70 might work as well.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:35 pm

I'd say the .45-70 would be even better than your .45 caliber muzzleloader which is the ballistic equal of an M1 Carbine.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:22 pm

Swampman, that sure makes my rifle seem kind of puny don't it.Maybe I should think again about using it for deer.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:53 pm

Jerry,

I would not worry about it. There is a huge difference between paper ballistics and real world killing power.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:10 pm

"Maybe I should think again about using it for deer."

Even a .54 caliber roundball from a muzzleloader isn't very powerful. I wouldn't use a .45 personally.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:13 pm

Thanks Scott,I know what that rifle can do. It does not feel quite like my grandson's .30 carbine. Real world shooting is a bit different ain't it.
I reckon that the old mountain men did not know their .54 Hawkens rifle were not suitable for the game they killed either.

ken n · Post by **ken n** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:18 pm

PPpastordon wrote:ken n wrote:
"Your friend should send the bullets to Hornady with the story and contact info of the witnesses."

Write Hornady, yes. Send bullets, I question. If he desires them for his own collection - as I did, I would suggest not sending them. They gave me all sorts of assurances that they would return my clearly "failed" (exploded to small pieces) bullets so I finally sent them. However, in spite of assurances of their care for my property they still managed to lose them!

Yeah, it is true: They sent me a nice letter. But they sure were pretty "non-caring" on the phone when I talked with them about the "lost" bullets.

Please do not misunderstand me. IMHO: Their current 300 grain .45 XTP's and their 180 grain .357 XTP's are great revolver bullets. I still purchase them, still use them, and recommend them for jacketed bullets. But I will never again sent them anything from my collection.

I guess maybe this is an invite to receive another heavy-handed e-mail from Steve H., but I do not believe they want examples of their failures in the hands of any of their customers. Of course this is, again, IMHO!

Grace and Peace.

I understand how you feel given how your situation played out. I guess I was thinking that if Hornady was shown strong evidence of a failure which may have been from poor design or maybe a bad run, then they would set out to improve them and everyone benefits.

Another thought..... I've seen jacketed bullets fail after hitting small brush that wasn't visable near the deer. The jacket gets disrupted and the bullet tumbles and comes apart upon impact. I guess thats another benefit to shooting cast.

Best regards,
Ken

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:40 pm

Swampman wrote:I wouldn't use blackpowder. You'll never get all that nasty stuff out of the receiver. The Remington 405 grain factory load, or an equal handload using Varget would be much better. Don't waste game with lung shots. Break the front shoulders.

The NEF Handi Rifle is an excellent weapon.

The black powder doesn't have a receiver to get into on the H&R, unless you have a big hole in the bottom of the chamber. I shoot BP out of my H&R 38-55 all the time. Mine all goes down the barrel. Not sure where you send yours.

If you load a 45-70 with a 400gr bullet in front of a full case of BP you HAVE the factory load at about 1300fps. No deer alive can survive a lung shot from that. There's a whole lot os Suix indians that would agree.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:42 pm

Will go through the horse and kill whatever is on the other side too!

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:45 pm

JerryB wrote:Thanks Scott,I know what that rifle can do. It does not feel quite like my grandson's .30 carbine. Real world shooting is a bit different ain't it.
I reckon that the old mountain men did not know their .54 Hawkens rifle were not suitable for the game they killed either.

I have a .50 Hawkin replica that has taken a few deer and I have killed my share with a .30 carbine. No comparison whatsoever. Though I prefer a larger bore with a round ball, like my beloved .58, that .50 is poison with a soft round ball and a full load of black.

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:47 pm

well my theory is the projectiles are at fault. the leverlution with testimony of several men who know their stuff was an abysmal failure. it didn't penetrate when it hit bone or hard muscle. this is indisputable as the proof was visible to all. the second incident, was the hollow point. this bullet has a cavity that i could swim in. heck i may just install a diving board and prepare for some summer fun. i am sure this bullet was a failure. i will put them to the test and write it up if any is interested.

now as for the future of this round. i am planing on using a 400-500 grain lead bullet. the jury is still out on the black powder, but ScottT has put an itch in me from all the posts about kate. i have found it fascinating to learn more about bp cartridges. i know i will at least have some bp rounds. i am also planing on using this rifle as a starter for my son. i have a .35 remington that i loaded some soft loads using the 158 lead bullets. they are sitting on top of a smidgen of powder, and have enough speed to pass through a deer at 75 yards. the beauty of it is they don't kick. i am planning doing the same with the .45-70. i will work up some loads using soft lead bullets on the heavy side and push them fast enough to kill, but slow enough not to kick you like a mule. i am sorta hoping i will get my .35 back cause my son has claimed it as his own. he just turned eight and has claimed my .22 mag, .35 remington, and my .410. isn't life great when your kids lay claim to your passions.

now a question for ScottT. have you ever used bp substitutes? the only way i can get bp is through the mail. i will be ordering some soon, but in the mean time i have several pounds of triple 7 fff.

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:15 am

[quote="Swampman"]I wouldn't use blackpowder. You'll never get all that nasty stuff out of the receiver.

I respectfully disagree. In a cartridge weapon, the case will block any gas from getting into the action. When you clean it you have two options. One is to turn the gun upside down so that the cleaning crud falls to the roof of the receiver. That works OK but it's not the best. The best is to start by using a funnel to pour some warm water down the barrel from the receiver and out the muzzle. Next, use a bore snake or a patch on a weighted cord to pull through from the action and out the muzzle. A couple of damp patches (water only) followed by a dry patch and then some oil and you're done. No big deal.

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:28 am

OK, now my $.02. I shoot a 45-90 Sharps. The bullet I use for hunting is cast 1-20 tin/lead and has a huge flat nose (meplat) I bought the mould from Veral Smith at LBT. These 520 grain slugs are on the heavy side for the 45-70 and BP. You just can't get much BP in the case with a slug longer than youir thumb is wide. However, that flat nose is a killer. Lots of tissue damage and lots of bleeding. It smacks game like a Mac Truck. The Hornady bullets were made for smokeless hotrodders and perform best above BP velocities IMHO. Get a good BP mould with a wide meplat. Cast bullets from lead/tin only no WWs. Use GOEX Cartridge or better Swiss 11/2F. Load about 65 grains by VOLUME not weight. Add a .030 card wad and be sure to lube the bullet with SPG or some other non-petroleum based lube. Use a compression die to compress the powder about 1/8 inch. You will have to fiddle with the powder charge so that when the bullet is seated to the ideal OAL, the charge is compressed about 1/8". Seat the bullet and give it the slightest crimp. Now you've got a good starting load. Fiddlw tith e crimp and the charge until you get the accuracy you want.

Fired cased need to be soaked in warm soap water, rinsed and dried.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:49 am

"The black powder doesn't have a receiver to get into on the H&R"

What's that thing the barrel attaches to?

You will get blow back around the case and it will get into your receiver which is hard to disassemle to clean properly. There's no logical reason to use blackpowder in a Handi. It's not worth all the extra effort.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:49 am

Scott Young wrote:.... the hollow point. this bullet has a cavity that i could swim in. heck i may just install a diving board and prepare for some summer fun.

That's my beef about those JHP's. The ones I tried exploded like a bomb .... blew massive holes. That's not want you want to be doing to your meat.

Swampman, .... blowback into your receiver? I'm wondering if you had enough powder compressed enough in the case. I must confess that I've not used BP in a .45-70, but I've used it in a .45-60 with cartridges formed from .45-70 brass, and there was no blowback. There was soot about 1/3 of the way back from the mouth, but it stopped there. That was with 60 grains of FFg. I would think that if 60 grains of FFg will seal a 45-70 case sized to 45-60, then even more FFg in a normal 45-70 case should seal as well. ScottT, what has your experience been with blowback into your receiver?

omgb · Post by **omgb** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:15 am

Blow-back is not a problem ... really. Shoot, (no pun intended) I use BP shells in my side by side and never get fouling back into the action and a shotgun operates at much lower pressure than a rifle..

In my original response I did not realize that we are talking about a Handi Rifle. Of all of the types of actions, a simple break open action would be the easiest to clean. Just remove the barrel and have at it.

My Sharps has a very intricate firring pin mechanism and a falling block action. I almost never have to drop the block or remove the pin assembly to clean these areas; even after literally hundreds of rounds. Somehow Swampman you must have had either any unusual experience or some bad information. My experience is just plain 180 degrees from yours. Even my 32-20 does not allow gas and fouling back into the action.

Anyway, that's my .02.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:32 am

I've not purchased or fired any Leverevolution ammo in any chambering, but I've killed three deer with one shot each from a Marlin 45-70 using Remington 405 gr factory loads. Two of dropped with shoulder shots, one was a lung/heart shot and the deer jumped and ran about 30-35 yds and collapsed.

IMO, expansion is not necessary with the 45-70 because the projectile is almost 1/2 in diameter and has a lot of mass.

Noah

bad experience with .45-70

bad experience with .45-70

Re: bad experience with .45-70