OT - Heirloom seeds

[O.S.O.K.]

I just ordered a selection of heirloom seeds. These are seeds that will produce plants that will in turn produce viable seeds.

Modern hybrid vegitables and garden plants do not produce seeds that will grow more plants or produce plants that are poor.

The idea is to have seeds that will allow you to grow a perpetual garden without needing to purchase seeds every season.

You may have seen recent advertisements for "survival seeds" at inflated prices - this is what they are - heirloom seeds and you can get them at normal prices from places like Burpee.

Just FYI.

I am steadily procuring things like this that don't cost much and get me closer to being prepared for bad times should they develop.

I am very encouraged by the Taxechussets election but it may be too little too late... I certainly hope not, but want to be a good Boyscout and "be prepared".

[mescalero1]

Have the garden plot ( large ) all prepared for spring.
Up here it has to be fenced in or the critters will get it.
8 foot chain link all around.

[Hobie]

As I was told when the rapture comes we will not be here to endure the hard times.

Now that I've got your attention, I wonder about myself. I've sinned. I've prayed. I believe. Because I believe but know myself I don't know what will happen to me. I will deal with it. Gardening and canning will be one way to carry on.

[cshold]

Mark 6:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household."

[Rusty]

I use mostly heirloom varieties in my garden with very few exceptions. Here's some folks I've done business with in the past. Some have political views that I don't agree with but they have product I need so I have to overlook it at times.

http://www.rareseeds.com

http://www.seedsofchange.com

http://www.seedsavers.org

http://www.bountifulgardens.org

www.vermontbean.com

www.tomatogrowers.com

I hope this helps.

[mikld]

Mark 6:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.”

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household."

That's it. The whole plan in two sentences.

[O.S.O.K.]

Well, looking back through recorded history and even some pre-recorded history it is abundantly clear to me that God helps those that help themselves.

[Don McDowell]

It's all well and good to be prepared, but if you don't have a 2-5 acre plot that you can actively farm or live someplace where you can grow year around, you won't be in as good of a position as you might think. Unless you're in a high rainfall area, you'll need some way to water the plants you do have, that'll require you're own well and pump.

[rjohns94]

I have used them and I used captured rain water off the house to keep the garden going.

[AJMD429]

Also start practicing NOW at saving and planting the seeds from your own produce.

Squash is EASY (butternut and spaghetti and delicata seem to do ok from their own seeds), and you can START by just buying some of those squash at the grocery NOW, save the seeds when you cook and eat the squash this winter, and plant them in warm weather.

Peppers seem easy, but are best started indoors in peat pots.

Tomatos same as peppers, but again, best to use an 'heirloom' variety, because the offspring of hybrids are pretty unpredictable.

There are books on 'seed saving' that give detailed methods for different plants, so you don't have to do trial and error each time.

[JerryB]

Hobie and anyone else interested, if you are saved by the Blood of our Saviour Jesus Christ you can know that you have eternal security and you can not get unsaved. Read John 10:28-29, Eph. 1:13, Eph. 4:30 there are many verses in the King James Bible that tell of eternal security. Most of the new books have removed them to fit new manmade doctrines. We bible believing Baptist take alot of hard talk about this but I believe what the scripture says.
I do raise some garden too but on the side of this ridge I get more rock than produce.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing on the perpetual garden thing. You need 2 years supply of seeds on hand, a 15 minute hail storm can eliminate one years worth.

[piller]

A big bonus is that in my opinion, the heirloom varieties taste better. Something about these hybrid tomatoes and such just loses the flavor.

[O.S.O.K.]

It's all well and good to be prepared, but if you don't have a 2-5 acre plot that you can actively farm or live someplace where you can grow year around, you won't be in as good of a position as you might think. Unless you're in a high rainfall area, you'll need some way to water the plants you do have, that'll require you're own well and pump.

Well, in my own experience, just three tomato plants produce a very large amount of fruit. You certainly don't need multiple acres to produce enough veggies and fruits for a single family. And one good growing season is all that's needed if you have the ability to can your produce. Good point about the water and I am ordering a driven point well kit to go in my back yard - the water table in these parts is only about 20-25' down. This is not a high volume water source but certainly plenty for a garden if needed.

We live in town (small town) on a 1/2 acre lot and even though the back yard has a large building on it, there's still several large areas that would hold a garden. And yes, we can grow year round here in Texas - just switch the veggies being grown...

And if you add a chicken coop with 8-10 laying hens and a rooster, you will be covered up in eggs and be able to breed your own chickens for replacement and for the pot as well. Rabbits too are pretty easy to breed and keep. Hassenpheffer!

I've been looking at what is needed to go on given a stoppage of trucking, power interruptions and even water shortages. You can be prepared and ready for all of this for very little $$ outlay if you do it intellegently.

A decent 180000 BTU two-burner wood burning cast iron stove can be had for under $300. A 40 watt wind generator for $600 (and then you need batteries, etc.). With some preparation and planning, I feel confident that I could provide for my family and of course protect us as well...

[Don McDowell]

It's all well and good to be prepared, but if you don't have a 2-5 acre plot that you can actively farm or live someplace where you can grow year around, you won't be in as good of a position as you might think. Unless you're in a high rainfall area, you'll need some way to water the plants you do have, that'll require you're own well and pump.

Well, in my own experience, just three tomato plants produce a very large amount of fruit. You certainly don't need multiple acres to produce enough veggies and fruits for a single family. And one good growing season is all that's needed if you have the ability to can your produce. Good point about the water and I am ordering a driven point well kit to go in my back yard - the water table in these parts is only about 20-25' down. This is not a high volume water source but certainly plenty for a garden if needed.
Just for kicks sometime you may want to count how many beans are in a #2 can

We live in town (small town) on a 1/2 acre lot and even though the back yard has a large building on it, there's still several large areas that would hold a garden. And yes, we can grow year round here in Texas - just switch the veggies being grown...
Fertilizer? On 1/2 acre you'll need to do something about replacing lost soil nutrients, especially in such a confined area, and continous production, It'll take about 1 acre just to get enough potatoes for a family of 4 for a year. If the worms don't get em before it's time to harvest

And if you add a chicken coop with 8-10 laying hens and a rooster, you will be covered up in eggs and be able to breed your own chickens for replacement and for the pot as well. Rabbits too are pretty easy to breed and keep. Hassenpheffer!
We keep about a dozen old hens, takes about 50 lbs of grain every couple of weeks to keep them going, and they also need a gallon of water a day in cold weather and more when its hot
I've been looking at what is needed to go on given a stoppage of trucking, power interruptions and even water shortages. You can be prepared and ready for all of this for very little $$ outlay if you do it intellegently.
Well lots of luck but it will take a bigger cash outlay than you think. You need to seriously look at what the daily consumption of your family is now. Then have that much stored foods available, because your garden won't produce for at least 60 days. If nothing happens between planting time and harvest

A decent 180000 BTU two-burner wood burning cast iron stove can be had for under $300. A 40 watt wind generator for $600 (and then you need batteries, etc.). With some preparation and planning, I feel confident that I could provide for my family and of course protect us as well...

Having spent the better end of my life in production agriculture (50 years+), I can assure you that you aren't even going to be able to come close to keeping your family fed on your 1/2 acre lot.There's just to many problems with soil quality and continued production capabilities. Then in any outdoor environment there's no shortage of predation that can hit your garden. Rabbits,squirrels, dogs, cats, porcupines, deer , all and any can destroy a small garden while you sleep. Never mind what a hail storm in the middle of the afternoon can do.
Wind generators are all well and good, but you need wind. Solar is more dependable.
Wood stoves are great, but they take wood, and a chord of wood doesn't last long when it's all you have.
I'ld strongly recommend that right now you begin a serious audit of just exactly how much food you consume per day. Count the number of green beans in just one can. Buy some ear corn at the grocery store, and see just how many meals you can get from 6 ears. Get a sack full of fresh peas and see how many of those it takes per meal.
Lots of luck in your survival efforts it's a worthy goal but you got a long ways to go.

[O.S.O.K.]

Don, how many small gardens have you grown? Production agriculture is not the same as small gardening - you know that. And here in Texas, the gardening is perpetual. I have seen what my father-in-law's small garden (in Iowa) produced in one growing season - it was much more than his family needed for veggies and such - he would give away much each summer and fall. I also know what our gardens here have produced. Given full time effort, I have plenty of space to produce everything we would need. The fences would become arbors and support all kinds of vining plants.

If your point is that there's no back up for a small garden - I will give you that - but it will certainly handle the needs of one family. I've seen it too many times to question this.

And I wouldn't "waste" any garden space on corn - it is very unproductive per square foot compared to many other veggies.

The point is, that it would be wise to have something lined up and not to "give up" because you don't have acres of land at your disposal.

Would you rather have "not enough" veggies or none at all?

You don't have to live on a farm to produce your own veggies.

As to the wood stove, it wouldn't be needed but for cooking - we don't need to heat anything really - even in the winter, its warm enough on all but a very few days. And we always have a wind blowing.

[Coldfingers]

OSOK...good on ya. I wish you the best.

I have not worked in MONTHS and thank the Good Lord everyday I cook a homegrown spud, squash or other tidbit that came up in the yard (and that did not require "mowing")

I am also thankfull that I took advantage of last summers slow times to partake of such things as salmon runs and hunting seasons.

I am thankfull for pressure cookers, Smokehouses, dehydrators and woodstoves.

Our "location" tends to be brutal on the gardens but we get enough to get by on.

Kudo's to the Heritage seeds decision. We keep em on hand but do get better performance from many of the Hibreds. Long Term, we could get by with the Heritage (along with Beans and Rice ) We would definatatly need them if there was ANY disruption in the shipping system (out of work truck drivers? )

Hobie...hard to give back a free gift you know. Grace is grace, no matter what.

Be blessed there fellers.

scotty

[Don McDowell]

A small garden will definetly provide some food for a family, but there's precious little chance it'll produce enough to keep a family alive over the course of the year. A person can only eat so dang much zuccini....
Yes supposedly you can keep a garden in continous production thru the year. But to do so will be extememly hard on the nutrients of the soil.
And yes for most of my life there's been a garden grown. However in the last few years with just the two of us in the house the cost of watering etc, for the little dab of produce derived doesn't even begin to be cost efficient.

So grow your garden, but back it up with something substantial enough to keep you going for the year.

[AJMD429]

One other thing on the perpetual garden thing. You need 2 years supply of seeds on hand, a 15 minute hail storm can eliminate one years worth.

Good point!

[Don McDowell]

Thanks Doctor...
Maybe you could also be so good as to point out the importance of starch and fiber content and nutrients of certain vegetables ?

[Kansas Ed]

You also need to seriously start thinking about a heavy bearing fruit tree. Fruit can be canned, fermented, distilled, dried, etc. It's one of the more forgiving of foods for long term use. And a heavy bearing pecan tree can produce a lot of protein. But of course these things take several years to produce so start now. I have about a half acre lot in town...with a peach tree, a cherry tree, 4 blueberry plants, loads of raspberries, blackberries, grape trellis (3 types), gooseberries, an almond tree and 3 pecan trees. I also have a fair sized garden to boot. The birds ignore the raspberries for some reason, and will only eat the pink grapes (the concord and red candace they won't touch)...of course me and the kids are the only creatures in town interested in the gooseberries

Ed

[mescalero1]

3 apples and 1 cherry tree here
Pecans?
I was thinking walnut.

[rhead]

One eighth acre will produce the calories and protein for one adult. Trapping birds rabbits and other scavengers from the garden will supply at least most of the needed meat. This is with intensive gardening and leaves almost no surplus for bad harvest THAT WILL COME. It also leaves limited opportunity for crop rotation and zero opportunity for leaving land fallow. In my area the crops of choice would be corn,wheat, potatoes and beans. The traditional garden crops of tomatoes, squash, lettuce, and other soft vegetables that we all love to eat provide variety and vitamins but very little food value. Twice that amount would allow for crop rotations and fallow land and laying back a surplus for bad harvest but would still allow almost no provision for growing any fiber crops for the replacement of clothing. You would stay alive but it would be on the level of Chinese peasants. Also like the Chinese peasants you would be one dry summer away from a famine. Millions of people in China live on those tiny plots and survive. Calling it living might be a stretch.

Intensive gardening cannot be done with tractors or other mechanized methods. It is almost all stoop labor and hand harvesting. You can sow the wheat in the standing corn and then harvest the corn whild walking on the young wheat sprouts. You cannot do that with tractors or roto tillers.

[SteveR]

I have a dehydrator and vacuum packing machine, I used to dehydrate vegetables and use them for venison stew in the winter. I haven't got my canning operation going since moving two years ago, so freezing and dehydrating work the best for me.

Steve

[O.S.O.K.]

A small garden will definetly provide some food for a family, but there's precious little chance it'll produce enough to keep a family alive over the course of the year. A person can only eat so dang much zuccini....
Yes supposedly you can keep a garden in continous production thru the year. But to do so will be extememly hard on the nutrients of the soil.
And yes for most of my life there's been a garden grown. However in the last few years with just the two of us in the house the cost of watering etc, for the little dab of produce derived doesn't even begin to be cost efficient.

So grow your garden, but back it up with something substantial enough to keep you going for the year.

Don, I'm certainly not arguing that other sources of food stuffs will be needed. I understand that you are meaning well by playing devil's advocate and pointing out the shortcomings of the situation. It's not ideal to say the least, and having more land to cultivate is better in all ways.

My point is that its worth the effort and preparation. Having only 1/2 the amount of food you need is much better than zero and increases your chances of changing the situation.

Let me ask you this: I have 400 foot (on side) of fencing (4-7' tall - avg 6') to use as arbors. What kind of annual production would that amount of vining plants produce? I'm thinking zuc, cucumbers, grapes, etc... I know it really depends on what you plant - so suggest the best and go from there.

I have the sides of buildings to use too and would most probably extend the fencing to the front yard for security - creating another 200' workth of one-sided arbor space.

As to the survival aspect of this - if things are that bad, the folks in the country will no doubt start truck farms and the farmer's market will explode = there will be great demand. Further, every backyard in the city will have a chicken coop and/or rabbit hutch. I could see catfish ponds popping up in the surrounding areas too. The climate is perfect for that.

Yes, chicks and rabbits have to eat too - rabbits would probably (?) be handled with garden-by products and rejects but the chickens would need feed - I would probably start raising crickets for them too - have some experience with that.

One good thing about having the garden and chicks/rabbits is that their waste would go into the compost and in time become fertilizer to cycle into the garden.

I sure would be interesting thats for sure. As in "may you live in interesting times" interesting...

[Don McDowell]

Most vining things aren't really full of nutrition, they sure offer some refreshment in season, but things like squash are hard to can, and cucumbers are only good for pickles if canned, not a lot of food value. Pole beans and peas would be a better use of that fence area, much more nutrition and can be canned, dehydrated, or if you're sure you have the capability to keep a freezer going , frozen. Keep in mind that many of the vining plants have a heck of a root system, so without supplemental water they can starve out other plants, and they'll loose out to trees.
If you don't have the grain resources for the chickens and rabbits they won't last long, and a couple of ol hens go hard rock mining in the garden they can trash it in no time at all. Same with rabbits those buggers can nip and kill more plants in 5 minutes than the bit of meat protien they'll provide in the skillet.
I guess I live my life in "interesting" times. We keep about a years supply of canned goods and the staples (flour, salt, sugar, corn meal, rice and beans) on hand at all times. We have freezers full of meat, and should the power quit, can keep the freezers going by generator until we could get that meat canned. We also have solar water pump that can be moved from location to location to suit our needs. Also have wood heat and cook stove, plus coleman stoves and lanterns, and kerosene lamps and space heaters.
In the event of a katamaclismac failure of epic proportions, there will be mass starvation , as most urban dwellers don't have 3 days worth of food on hand let alone 3 weeks.The soil in many of the urban devlopements is stuff, as the sub soil from the basements etc was laid out for land scape and drainage, and what litte good top soil there was is scattered thinly over that. Backyard gardens might work ok for a little while, but without added humus and fertilizer will not produce much. Truck farms etc will take time to get up and running, as they are so few and far between, and without the infrastructure we have now the large produce farms that keep the grocery shelfs stocked likely won't be able to operate.
You're right in keeping a garden going, in the event of total collapse , extra produce will be worth more than gold, folks can eat a zuccini, but the only thing a piece of paper saying they own an ounce of gold someplace is good for is a substitute for toilet paper.

[Rusty]

For a survival type farm/garden then, think 3rd world growing methods now. A really good book on that can be found on the Bountiful gardens website I listed above. Their founder wrote a book called "How to Grow More Vegetables" than you ever thought possible.

[O.S.O.K.]

Good posts. I am under no illusion that things wouldn't be very hard and dangerous.

Pole beans then for the arbors - and what about grapes - one crop a year... and we could plant some peach trees. We have nut trees already.

We keep 6 months of food (or more - I am in the food business and have dry samples stored for that too) and also have the freezer full.

I do not have the backup generators in place and need to get that well in... and learn more about the wind generator/battery system. We do get a pretty steady breeze here - but also sun, so maybe that would be better...

I do have a lot of camping gear from years of participation in boyscouts with my two sons and also have a two-chamber wood smoker grill that would suffice in a pinch but I'd rather have a stove handy if needed.

I'd feel better living in the country but then again, being out and isolated can be just as dangerous if not more dangerous than living in a small town... at least in town, you can organize defensively - but then, if they are short of food (and they will be) and such.... well good thing we are well armed and provisioned with ammo....

[BigSky56]

Good topic, Don your right about chickens they can do more damage than a swarm of locusts to a garden heck I have to keep flocks of merriam turkeys out of mine and Iam tilling about 1/2 acre of spuds corn and beans these Mt gardens grow about 300 lbs of venison too. As I have a yearlong crick running thru my place my water is gravity fed so no power needed. Canning your products or even the vegs and meats you buy from the store or a farmer is a way to hedge against a crisis. I always keep a sack of flour,beans, rice and powdered milk around put them in those 5 gal plastic buckets w/lids and throw a few bay leaves on top and seal. You can get powdered milk that has the fat still in it you just have to use it quicker before it goes bad. danny

[Don McDowell]

Danny those turkeys can reduce a pile of ear corn to rubble in a hurry.
In this part of the world its a touchy situation to try and grow beans out in the open. Antelope will swoop into a bean patch just as they bloom and eat the blooms off.
In your part of the world 20 years or so ago the big thing was to stick small electric generating turbines in the creek, are they still doing that?

[BigSky56]

Yea alot of people up here have put in both high and low head water pressure turbines,they work good if you and keep the fish and debris out of the intake. Alot have put up wind turbines to. danny

[mescalero1]

Posted it here with YK's help
Put up a Skystream 3.7.

[Tycer]

I'll post it again. This DVD is excellent!

http://www.backyardfoodproduction.com/

[Tycer]

You also need to seriously start thinking about a heavy bearing fruit tree. Fruit can be canned, fermented, distilled, dried, etc. It's one of the more forgiving of foods for long term use. And a heavy bearing pecan tree can produce a lot of protein. But of course these things take several years to produce so start now. I have about a half acre lot in town...with a peach tree, a cherry tree, 4 blueberry plants, loads of raspberries, blackberries, grape trellis (3 types), gooseberries, an almond tree and 3 pecan trees. I also have a fair sized garden to boot. The birds ignore the raspberries for some reason, and will only eat the pink grapes (the concord and red candace they won't touch)...of course me and the kids are the only creatures in town interested in the gooseberries

Ed

That sounds great. Purposely mimicking a forest and the edges of a forest choosing to plant all edible and medicinal perennial plants that benefit each other is a great way to create a lifetime of food production with almost zero maintenance after the third year. In addition, the creation of a food forest allows birds and predator insects to live and thrive eliminating the need for pesticides. Even if you move and do not get to reap the benefits of some of the trees and shrubs you plant, someone will.

It's of the utmost importance we each begin planting something edible. Replace one Bradford pear with something that produces fruit. Bradford pear.....what a waste. It's shameful that we have so many planned suburban communities with their beautiful landscapes and no food crops in the whole lot.

Fix it. Start now. One tree. Buy your neighbor one too.

[Tycer]

Yes supposedly you can keep a garden in continous production thru the year. But to do so will be extememly hard on the nutrients of the soil.

We can change the way we were taught to garden. Change what we grow and eat. If two thirds of the garden is grown strictly for mulch, the soil will be continually improved. Planting companion plants that transfer nutrients and enzymes, nitrogen and other benefits through their root systems helps also.

Stop tilling. The earth has layers of strata that take time to build. Very definite layers that each have their own place in the production of nutritious soil. When we till the soil we are destroying the symbiotic relationship of those layers. The best soil I know of is on the edges of deciduous forests. Mimic that in your garden. Never stop mulching, building that same soil found in nature.

[Don McDowell]

If the " mulch" doesn't go into the soil by tillage it will take years for the nutrients in it to actually reach the root zone where the plants need it. Proper tillage will build the soil faster.
They've tried this no till stuff elbeit on a larger scale in rotational crop farming. It requires a large amount of fertilizer and chemical to control weeds. While it will work it also drives the final cost of production up, after the first couple of crop years.
Tilling the soil also helps relieve compaction , allowing surface water to soak in and hold on top of the "dead pan" . Roots especially those from vegetables need soft soil to grow and seek out the nutrients they need. No till doesn't allow for that real well.

[rhead]

What can be done in a garden with stoop labor and what can be done in a large mono culture fields are two different things. The world cannot be fed from gardens unless 95% or so of the population is gardening. The large farms cannot be cultivated by using gardening techniques. I can grow quite a bit of food on a half acre. If I tried to use the same techniques on 10 acres I probably could not handle the work load. I do not know exactly where the cuttoff point would be. Treating a garden like a very small farm will work but the efficiency will be reduced.

Comparing apples to oranges only gives confusion.

[Tycer]

Exactly. Small scale only. The larger farming methods rely on petroleum not stoop labor. I'd guess that a family of four could intensively farm 1/2 acre and manage maybe 10 if it were not pastured.

Cuba and North Korea lost their imports of Russian petroleum in the early 90s. North Korea lost hundreds of thousands to starvation and Cuba is thriving. The difference is the Cuban government ordered all inhabitants to farm. Immediately. It took them less than 5 years to bring food production online. No pesticides, no herbicides and very little if any petroleum.

We are not Cuba, however we can, as individuals, work to produce our own communities of food growers. I move this week to a .77 acre home with sun, spring and established fruit trees. I'm bailing on the big city for a little town that has already started.

It may be far fetched, but if the world follows Mexico's pattern of oil production it better change it's farming techniques right pronto. This year, for the first time ever, Mexico will be a net importer of oil.

[Don McDowell]

There are some things that are just inescapable whether we're talking a 10 sq ft garden or a 1000 acre field. It takes just so long for plant material to decompose into nutrient rich humos. Root systems from vegetable plants need soft soil to spread in to gather nutrients for the plant.
Backyard gardeners use compost piles. Larger operations use tillage. But either way the humos needs to be mixed into the soil or it lays on top and does little good.
Gardening/raising food is hard work. That's why few people do it.

[Tycer]

Don, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I believe no-till works and you don't.

Cheers.

[Don McDowell]

Tycer just for a bit more clarification. I KNOW no till doesn't work as it has been hyped. Been there , paid the entry fee, didn't buy the T shirt, and won't go back.
But you believe what ever you want.

[Rusty]

Another information source you might find useful is acres U.S.A. they cover things along the organic and or natural methods on more of a commercial level.

A lot has to do with climate. here in Fla we can grow 12 months a year. Not everything but we can grow enough things to stay fed. A lot of things can be eaten that people don't think of eating. Ever eat sweet potato leaves? They make good summer salad green. All kinds of things out there.

[Don McDowell]

Rusty that's no kidding about the eating alot of things you wouldn't think about. My grandmother loved the leaves from lambsquarters also known as Koshia weed. It was the same to her as spinach.