Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
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- Levergunner
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Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
New to the forum. Hi, everyone.
Understanding that it has nowhere near the stopping power or range of a .357 Magnum, what is the relative effectiveness of .38 Special fired from a 20-inch barrel? How does it differ from .38 Special fired from handguns? What effects at at what range? How about Plus P?
Thanks for your input.
Understanding that it has nowhere near the stopping power or range of a .357 Magnum, what is the relative effectiveness of .38 Special fired from a 20-inch barrel? How does it differ from .38 Special fired from handguns? What effects at at what range? How about Plus P?
Thanks for your input.
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Relative to what, on what?
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
- AJMD429
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
I think there is a 'ballistics by the inch' site that compared .357 and 9mm and others (unsure if .38 special) from carbine/rifle and handgun. Someone will probably post link; if I find it I will post it. That may help. The .38 special differences would likely be sort of in between those two I'd think.
In Indiana, .38 special is not considered a 'deer' round from a rifle, but .45 Colt and .44 Mag and .357 Mag are, I believe.
Hope that helps some.
In Indiana, .38 special is not considered a 'deer' round from a rifle, but .45 Colt and .44 Mag and .357 Mag are, I believe.
Hope that helps some.
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- Levergunner
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Yes, that helps and without seeing the charts, about what I figured.
I'm speaking here in terms of defense. I have a Rossi .38/.357 and I understand its capabilities when loaded with .357. Let's say I run out of .357. What is the effectiveness in stopping power of a carbine loaded in .38 Special or Plus P, at say, 25 to 100 yards?
I fire it in .357 at 50 to 100 yards and more often than not hit what I'm shooting at.
Related, I have a S&W Model 60 chambered in .38/.357.
I'm speaking here in terms of defense. I have a Rossi .38/.357 and I understand its capabilities when loaded with .357. Let's say I run out of .357. What is the effectiveness in stopping power of a carbine loaded in .38 Special or Plus P, at say, 25 to 100 yards?
I fire it in .357 at 50 to 100 yards and more often than not hit what I'm shooting at.
Related, I have a S&W Model 60 chambered in .38/.357.
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
In terms of defense, a .38sp+p out of a 20" Rossi will be plenty adequate on 2 legged varmints. Won't be "optimal", but it will be adequate... certainly better than nothing.fritzderkat wrote:Yes, that helps and without seeing the charts, about what I figured.
I'm speaking here in terms of defense. I have a Rossi .38/.357 and I understand its capabilities when loaded with .357. Let's say I run out of .357. What is the effectiveness in stopping power of a carbine loaded in .38 Special or Plus P, at say, 25 to 100 yards?
I fire it in .357 at 50 to 100 yards and more often than not hit what I'm shooting at.
Related, I have a S&W Model 60 chambered in .38/.357.
I'm going to pull one out of my nether regions here, but if your .38 revolver is "adequate" defensively out to 50 ft and barely so out to 100 ft, I'd say out of a rifle it will be equally "adequate" out to 50 yds, and barely so out to 100 yds.
YMMV.
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
I chrono's my straight up 357mag loads which are made up using a 158grn Zero JSP bullet, CCI SPM primers, and the Hornady max listed H110 powder charge of 16.5grns in my 20" Rossi carbine on a 80° day at 6,100ft asl and they clocked at 1,812fps which equals 1,152lb/ft muzzle energy. (They clocked about 10fps faster in my 24" barreled rifle.)
My load is no where near a max charge in my Rossi (I have a friend that loads his 20" levergun with 158grn Zero bullets to 2,052fps which equals 1,477lb/ft muzzle energy. IMR lists their 800X powder in a carbine under a 158grn bullet at 1,935fps which equals 1,313lb/ft muzzle energy so my friend's loads aren't that overcharged, especially for the Rossi's strong action.
This compares to a Hornady recommended max charge in a pistol of 16.7grns with a 158grn JHP bullet. They list the numbers as 1,591fps which equals 888lb/ft muzzle energy. These aren't directly comparable because Hornady doesn't list the temperature, humidity, and altitude of their tested ammo.
The extra barrel length and lack of a cylinder interface looks to produce an additional 220fps of velocity and an additional 264lb/ft of muzzle energy. These numbers are significant increases and dramatically increase the knock down power of the cartridge in a rifle length barrel. Using my friend's loads, the difference is even more dramatic with an additional 461fps of velocity and additional 589lb/ft of muzzle energy.
The 38spl+P is still an effective round in a rifle for shorter range (50-75yds). IMR's data center lists 38spl+P in a 6" pistol at 1,195fps which equals 501lb/ft muzzle energy. My 38spl+P loads are above max for the 38spl, however, I load them longer than max 38sp length to aid in chambering in my rifles. My data taken at the same time as my 357mag data above in my 20" carbine yeilded 1,428fps which equals 708lb/ft muzzle energy.
As far as long range shooting is concerned, I regularly shoot both my Rossis (20"carbine and 24" rifle) well over 200yds at our steel targets using my 38spl+P loads. Hitting our 8" dia steel plate at 175yds is a piece of cake with both of them too. My 357mag loads will reach out all the way to 300yds, however, these distances are beyond the effective range for hunting with a 357mag.
My load is no where near a max charge in my Rossi (I have a friend that loads his 20" levergun with 158grn Zero bullets to 2,052fps which equals 1,477lb/ft muzzle energy. IMR lists their 800X powder in a carbine under a 158grn bullet at 1,935fps which equals 1,313lb/ft muzzle energy so my friend's loads aren't that overcharged, especially for the Rossi's strong action.
This compares to a Hornady recommended max charge in a pistol of 16.7grns with a 158grn JHP bullet. They list the numbers as 1,591fps which equals 888lb/ft muzzle energy. These aren't directly comparable because Hornady doesn't list the temperature, humidity, and altitude of their tested ammo.
The extra barrel length and lack of a cylinder interface looks to produce an additional 220fps of velocity and an additional 264lb/ft of muzzle energy. These numbers are significant increases and dramatically increase the knock down power of the cartridge in a rifle length barrel. Using my friend's loads, the difference is even more dramatic with an additional 461fps of velocity and additional 589lb/ft of muzzle energy.
The 38spl+P is still an effective round in a rifle for shorter range (50-75yds). IMR's data center lists 38spl+P in a 6" pistol at 1,195fps which equals 501lb/ft muzzle energy. My 38spl+P loads are above max for the 38spl, however, I load them longer than max 38sp length to aid in chambering in my rifles. My data taken at the same time as my 357mag data above in my 20" carbine yeilded 1,428fps which equals 708lb/ft muzzle energy.
As far as long range shooting is concerned, I regularly shoot both my Rossis (20"carbine and 24" rifle) well over 200yds at our steel targets using my 38spl+P loads. Hitting our 8" dia steel plate at 175yds is a piece of cake with both of them too. My 357mag loads will reach out all the way to 300yds, however, these distances are beyond the effective range for hunting with a 357mag.
Steve
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- Levergunner
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Much obliged.
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Almost anyone would agree that a 170 gr. .30-30 load is effective out of a carbine to at least 150 yards. Now, look at the numbers and you'll find that a 158 gr. ,357 bullet from a carbine at 2000+ FPS (not hard to acheive) comes darned close to that 170 gr. .30-30 at the muzzle.
You also need to keep in mind, though, that in addition to being slightly lighter the .357 bullet is shorter and overall stubbier than the .308 bullet, meaning its ballistic coefficient is worse than the flatpoint .308 bullet. So it's going to lose punch faster than the .30-30. On the deer around here, I wouldn't hesitate using the .357 out to 100 yards or so, given a clear shot and time enough to make double-sure of my bullet placement.
You also need to keep in mind, though, that in addition to being slightly lighter the .357 bullet is shorter and overall stubbier than the .308 bullet, meaning its ballistic coefficient is worse than the flatpoint .308 bullet. So it's going to lose punch faster than the .30-30. On the deer around here, I wouldn't hesitate using the .357 out to 100 yards or so, given a clear shot and time enough to make double-sure of my bullet placement.
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Well, yes. And I agree when discussing the .357. But the OP was specifically talking about the .38...
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Better than nothing.fritzderkat wrote:I'm speaking here in terms of defense. I have a Rossi .38/.357 and I understand its capabilities when loaded with .357. Let's say I run out of .357. What is the effectiveness in stopping power of a carbine loaded in .38 Special or Plus P, at say, 25 to 100 yards?
The answer is simple, if you run out of one load and only have another you're going to have to make do. If you don't want to be forced to make do, you'd best get more of what you think you need.
As to range, when used on humans you'd best have a darn good reason to shoot at somebody at ranges in excess of 30-50 FEET. It will be a darn big house where you have to shoot further on the inside and you've got a lot of 'splainin' to do if you shoot at somebody OUTSIDE your castle. That's true for now.
IF your a TEOTWAWKI adherent we revert to the GET MORE argument.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
one of the great myths. there is no such thing as stopping power. there is a point, where a bullet will penetrate and destroy vital organs. that, is what you need to determine. a 357 hardcast has the same STOPPING POWER at close range as a 454. the 454 buys you range, if you can shoot well enough to use it. a 30-30 will kill the biggest brown bear at 100 yds. that a 300-378 weatherby will kill at 500. bears don't read gunns and ammo. when they do, i'm in BIG TROUBLE
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Maybe an unfortunate use of the term 'stopping power.' A better term in that sentence would have been something like 'performance' instead.
Steve
Retired and Living the Good Life
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are
Retired and Living the Good Life
No Matter Where You Go, There You Are
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Welcome to the forum.
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- kimwcook
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
As DBW said, welcome to the forum.
Old Law Dawg
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
welcome to the fire. hope you enjoy
Mike Johnson,
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
[quote="AJMD429"...'ballistics by the inch' site...Someone will probably post link...[/quote]
Here is the link for the .38 Special:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
You can see that an 18 inch barrel can propel some .38 Special loads to about 1200 fps as the powder is more fully burned. This starts to approach magnum handgun speeds. But the .357 round is a better match for the long barrel.
Welcome!
Here is the link for the .38 Special:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html
You can see that an 18 inch barrel can propel some .38 Special loads to about 1200 fps as the powder is more fully burned. This starts to approach magnum handgun speeds. But the .357 round is a better match for the long barrel.
Welcome!
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Here is the link for the .38 Special:JohndeFresno wrote:[quote="AJMD429"...'ballistics by the inch' site...Someone will probably post link...
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/38special.html[/quote]
Thanks for posting the link I lost...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
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Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
This past summer I fired some Remington 158 gr. .38 Special +P ammunition from 2 different .357 Magnum rifles just to see what the increase in velocity might be. A dissected round contained 5.0 grs. of a fine flake powder.
Pistol - Ruger Security Six - barrel 6" - average velocity = 971 f.p.s.
Rifle - Rossi Puma - barrel 20" - average velocity....... = 1,135 f.p.s.
Rifle - Marlin Cowboy - barrel 24" - average velocity ...= 1,128 f.p.s.
w30wcf
Pistol - Ruger Security Six - barrel 6" - average velocity = 971 f.p.s.
Rifle - Rossi Puma - barrel 20" - average velocity....... = 1,135 f.p.s.
Rifle - Marlin Cowboy - barrel 24" - average velocity ...= 1,128 f.p.s.
w30wcf
aka John Kort
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w44wcf (black powder)
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.22 WCF, .30 WCF, .44 WCF Cartridge Historian
aka Jack Christian SASS 11993 "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13
aka w44wcf (black powder)
NRA Life member
.22 WCF, .30 WCF, .44 WCF Cartridge Historian
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Welcome aboard!
The .38 Special round, in the form of a 158-grain semi-wadcutter, and latter a hollow-point semi-wadcutter, was pretty much the standard police handgun round for a couple-few decades. Seemed to do the job very nicely. It was a balance with trade-offs, like so many things to do with firearms. A sweet spot of sorts - "controllability", accuracy, and enough power to do the job most of the time. When the police went away from it, it was not due to the round, but due to the platform. They wanted a semi-automatic, and I think most would agree that they traded down in performance when they went to the 9mm, especially in 115-grain FMJ loads, which many guns required to function correctly. It was the lack of performance on that round that caused almost all of them to make the jump up to the .40 S&W.
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Rossi loaded up with .38 Specials. It will do the job!
The .38 Special round, in the form of a 158-grain semi-wadcutter, and latter a hollow-point semi-wadcutter, was pretty much the standard police handgun round for a couple-few decades. Seemed to do the job very nicely. It was a balance with trade-offs, like so many things to do with firearms. A sweet spot of sorts - "controllability", accuracy, and enough power to do the job most of the time. When the police went away from it, it was not due to the round, but due to the platform. They wanted a semi-automatic, and I think most would agree that they traded down in performance when they went to the 9mm, especially in 115-grain FMJ loads, which many guns required to function correctly. It was the lack of performance on that round that caused almost all of them to make the jump up to the .40 S&W.
I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a Rossi loaded up with .38 Specials. It will do the job!
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- Levergunner
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Thanks for the welcome, and the input as well. You've answered my question very nicely.
My standard load for the Rossi is 158-grain Mag hollow points. I find those also are handleable in the Smith Model 60 (3-inch barrel)--unless of course I'm squeezing off several rounds rapid fire, which because of recoil begins to get a bit hairy. Although my accuracy at 15 feet to 25 yards is roughly the same, I prefer as a matter of comfort the .38 + P as my carry round.
My standard load for the Rossi is 158-grain Mag hollow points. I find those also are handleable in the Smith Model 60 (3-inch barrel)--unless of course I'm squeezing off several rounds rapid fire, which because of recoil begins to get a bit hairy. Although my accuracy at 15 feet to 25 yards is roughly the same, I prefer as a matter of comfort the .38 + P as my carry round.
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
BTW, my idea of "defense" includes, say, some sort of breakdown of civil order, folks with mayhem on their minds who may be running through my backyard--up to around 100 yards or thereabouts, which at age 67 is about as far as my tri-focaled eyes are able to accurately calibrate.
Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
fritzderkat wrote:BTW, my idea of "defense" includes, say, some sort of breakdown of civil order, folks with mayhem on their minds who may be running through my backyard--up to around 100 yards or thereabouts, which at age 67 is about as far as my tri-focaled eyes are able to accurately calibrate.
This is my thinking as well. At age 45 I'm still blessed with 20/20 vision. With the way things are transpiring in the political and economic world I'm wanting one caliber which I've reduced to .357/.38 for my Rossi lever and Ruger sidearm.
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- Levergunner
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Since the subject has come up, I once had 20/15 vision, which purportedly means what most people could see at 15 feet, I could see at 20. This changed around the age of 40--quite quickly, in fact. I was reading a newspaper one day and all of a sudden it seemed as though the printed words had turned into ants crawling across the page. I tilted it this way, then that, forward and back, then said, "What the **** is this?" Eye glasses have corrected it, mostly, but as many of you know, the distance from the eye to the front sight of a handgun, even a rifle, is generally not ideal for the vision impaired if you're concerned with accurate sighting.
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Re: Stopping power, range, .38/.357 Rossi cowboy carbine
Keep in mind that shooting 38's in a .357 mag chamber may cause some chambering issues if you decide to quickly change to .357's.
A fouling ring will develop in the chamber and prevent the .357 from chambering completely.
If you keep the chamber clean this can be prevented.
A fouling ring will develop in the chamber and prevent the .357 from chambering completely.
If you keep the chamber clean this can be prevented.
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