OT - Arrow Penetration Issues

[deerwhacker444]

I need some advice from some seasoned archers. I've been deer hunting for many years but have killed only a few animals so my experience level is low. My current setup shoots a 429 gr. arrow @ 275 fps for about 72 ft-lbs of Kinetic energy. From what I've read, that should be adequate for anything in North America.

I was using these Broadheads from NAP. They fly right and I though would penetrate well.

I shot a little buck a couple of weeks ago that I posted here:

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=22075

The shot was at 10 yards. The arrow penetrated the deer but didn't completely exit. The fletching was sticking out one side. Upon examination on field dressing, the arrow hit a rib going in and one going out. Seeing as how the arrow only touched ribs, I thought the arrow should have passed thru at that distance, but wrote it off to dumb luck.

On Sunday evening, I shot another small buck. Distance was about 28 yards and he was quartering away. The arrow entered a little on top and behind the shoulder and stopped. The buck took off running and the arrow snapped off. Upon closer examination, the arrow showed penetration to be atleast 9" due to the hair and blood. The broadhead and about 3" of shaft remained in the buck. There was very little blood. After he went in the tree line all sign stopped. I searched that night and the next morning but couldn't find him. I would have thought 9" of penetration would be enough to get 1 or both lungs and lead to a quick kill and easy recovery. But that proved not to be the case. There is nothing I hate more than feeding the coyotes.

My question is, with penetration being questionable on 2 hit deer, are these broadheads junk? Could the shape of the tip provide more resistance to penetration than one might think. I would have thought that with the KE that my bow is putting out, a decent arrow setup would have zipped right thru him.

My cousin has encouraged me to switch to Magnus Stinger Buzzcuts which he has had good success with. I've heard that they penetrate well.

I'm starting to lose confidence in my gear. Hitting my target is not a problem but I will start limiting my distance if kills aren't quick and decisive. I would have thought 30 yards would be no problem but now I'm not so sure.

What do you guys think..?

[86er]

I've experienced the same lack of penetration with a number of broadheads. Having the chance to shoot 5 deer with a bow per year and a number of exotics throughout the year allowed me to experiment extensively. The lowest low I've ever had hunting were the two deer I lost with an arrow in them. Here' my strong advice - American Broadhead Sonics - http://www.americanbroadhead.com I have been on the pro-staff of a bow company for a while and was offered a ton of free broadhead, including mechanical and fixed. American Broadhead was not one of the sponsors and I've never gotten anything free from them. I spend my own money for these heads because they are the best. There is a lot of hype about the cutting diameter but it really is a bunch of marketing ploy. I use the Sonics in 100 gr with 7/8 cut. If you cannot overcome the need for a bigger cut, the super sonics are 1" and they have others that are bigger yet. For penetration, the 3 blades are 100% cut on contact, solid blades with no skeletinizing and they are thick hard steel that is razor sharp. The 7/8 cut with solid blades surpasses a lot of the friction during penetration. The blades are replacable so you can resuse the ferrules. Other manufacturers use sharpened aluminum blades and there are a lot of little hex screws keeping the head together. When I first tried these I knew something was different because they were the first blades to shoot through my Block targets and small field bag targets. I had to get a commercial grade heavy duty outdoor bag target to stop them. Since then I've shot 6 deer, one black bear, one antelope, two rams and a feral goat with complete pass-through. I shot one hog this year, 267 pounds and did not get a pass through. I hit the gristle plate on the right and the broadhead exited under the left armpit but the arrow stayed in and at some point broke off before the boar died. The 12+ " of shaft was still in the boar. The bow that shot the above animals is a 52# @ 28" with Axis 400 arrows and blazer veins. I've shot one doe and one ram with the same arrows and sonics but with 4" feathers and from a recurve that is 35# @28" (and I overdraw it about 1" so probably 38# total). I shot through the doe broadside at 22 yards and the ram was shot with a hard quartering away. That arrow went in behind the ribs and the braodhead stuck in the opposite shoulder. I wholeheartedly recommend the Sonic 100gr and I would be surprised if your # of exits on deer does not go up at least 75%.

[Naphtali]

Good news and not-so-good news. Not-so-good news first: You are attempting to reinvent the axle - that is, trying to achieve results the hard way.

The good news is: What you want to know - reliable kills without jumping through hoops - can be found here.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb. ... forum;f=24

Download all the Acrobat files and enjoy Ed Ashby's two decades of research. WARNING: You may find the information challenges preconceptions. Relax. Trad hunters must pay closer attention to kvetching out those last few drops of arrow penetration.

Normally, I close by writing, "Hope this helps." In this case, I know it will help - if you allow the information to get in.
***
Parenthetically, I refer to the axle as a key invention. The wheel is nearly useless without it.

[Nath]

Firt class dearwhacker on wanting to do a better job.

There is loads of good info on tradgang even if not for compound shooters.

Now I ain't shot no big game only small but I would not pay much attention to speed and kinetic energy.
I would be looking for a better head my self and probably weight the shafts some.

My home made single bevel two blade heads for wood shafts cut deep into my card box boss from a 40# recurve just as deep as a ally shafted Wensel woodsman head from my little 60# Martin compound and if I remember my homemade is around the 600grn mark.

I may have a use less picture somewhere,,,,

Why I like single bevel cutting edges is they torque the cut open and lessen drag on the blade some.

Best wishes to ya.

Nath.

[Nath]

FWIW.

Nath.

[cnjarvis]

Just looking at the broadheads, the first thing I notice is the angle of the cutting edge to the shaft. It seems to be a fairly high angle which will make the arrow tend to have to "push" through the tissue rather than slice through. Picture trying to cut a piece of meat by pushing the blade perpendicular to the meat as opposed to using slicing strokes.

Just my .02

[19112TAP]

I use Magnus Stingers in the 2 and 4 blade 125gr. style. This year I took a couple of bucks the first was a really heavy bodied broadside 25yds high lung behind the shoulder blade with the 4 blade and zipped completely thru with a 20yd recovery and blood trail a blind man could follow, the second one was a little bit smaller bodied and shot while walking at 9yds from 16ft up in a tree stand with a 2 blade stinger with the arrow cutting trough the sholder blade down through the chest cavity and broke the leg bone on the off side with about 1/2in sticking out the hide as he ran off he broke about 9 to 10in wit the fletching off and upon field dressing I found a 12in section in the chest cavity with the rest along with the broadhead in the leg. The bow was set @ 62lbs with a 30" goldtip 55/75 shaft. I'm still amazed at the penetration I got going thru all that bone & muscle and still breaking thru the hide. I've been really happy with Magnus heads been using them for 7 to 8 yrs now plus their warranty is great.

[Coldfingers]

Deerwhacker...It has been over a dozen years since I quit using the speedbows and returned to the longbow.

I strongly advise reading everything that Dr Ashby printed as to broadhead performance.

After that, since you are shooting well within the range your equipment is capable of, I would suggest upping the weight of the arrow (weedeater line or heavy picture wire inside the shaft will not effect spine and you can...heck you can even fill shaft with salt and pepper for seasonings sake ) At distances in the 20-30 yard mark you would only notice slight drop in arrow impact from your equipment.

Throw the KE and sppeeeeddd out the window. Penetration is simply mass and tip profile (with attention to a well tuned arrow that is no longer oscilating when contact with target is made)

In my compound days, I did have good luck with the muzzy heads, even killed a caribou with one of the Muzzy's that had the practice inserts in place rather than the razor inserts...STOOPIDLY long story there!

I now pretty much stick with 10 grains arrow weight per pound of draw and a two blade with a 3-1 cutting profile. I do shoot carbons out of my R/D longbows at times and do use something inside the shaft to up the weight. Shooting the short distances I do, it is no bother to chunk something in the 800 grain class at moose and such. My longbows pull 58-61 pounds and will put such weight arrows through a moose like a stick-0-butter.

As to your second deer there...it could be that the hit was high enough that the body cavity filled with blood and shaft prevented any leakage. Provided the hit was too high and no vitals were hit, the deer will probably live to a ripe old age.

I have recovered several animals that were hit a mite high at some point in the past and had healed up just fine. Proof was still in place as head was recovered while I field dressed critters.

Good Hunting,

Scotty

[Nath]

Just looking at the broadheads, the first thing I notice is the angle of the cutting edge to the shaft. It seems to be a fairly high angle which will make the arrow tend to have to "push" through the tissue rather than slice through. Picture trying to cut a piece of meat by pushing the blade perpendicular to the meat as opposed to using slicing strokes.

Just my .02

They do pretty good on small game and resist hitting the ground often
Yes if I was to use this bow on deer I would lengthen the blade some but not much more.
They are made from hard band saw blade and take some stoning.

Nath.

[horsesoldier03]

BONE IS BONE! Depending on the thickness no broadhead is going to penetrate it. Thats why archers keep it in the rib shots and leave shoulders alone.

[cnjarvis]

Just looking at the broadheads, the first thing I notice is the angle of the cutting edge to the shaft. It seems to be a fairly high angle which will make the arrow tend to have to "push" through the tissue rather than slice through. Picture trying to cut a piece of meat by pushing the blade perpendicular to the meat as opposed to using slicing strokes.

Just my .02

Sorry for the confusion Nath. I was referring to the OP's broadheads, not yours.

Yours do look good BTW.


They do pretty good on small game and resist hitting the ground often
Yes if I was to use this bow on deer I would lengthen the blade some but not much more.
They are made from hard band saw blade and take some stoning.

Nath.

[.45colt]

If We are shooting a compound with lite weight arrows then we need to be at least 33 1/2' off the ground to get the max "meteorite" effect on any game animal. if We are shooting an obsolete recurve or longbow then One needs to be about 17 yards from the critter with a sharp 3X1 broadhead. just what I have seen work for Me.

[Hobie]

I use the Bear broadhead sans bleeders. SHARP, SHARP, SHARP is the byword. A lot of people want to start them vertical like the openings between ribs on deer but the arrow spins some so that doesn't really matter. I don't like the "modern" points with the chisel tips. From what little I've seen, even the stone points do as well or better. That's my intuitive prejudiced choice.

[44magHunter]

I have only killed one deer with my bow. (8-point psted a month or so ago.) But I have read that the chisle-tip broadheadslike you used do not penitrete as well as the cut-on-contact kind like these do. (http://g5outdoors.com/#sec_montec)

I shot my buck with these and I think the only reason I did not get great penitration is the arrow clipped his breast bone and embedded itself into the shoulder. This was entirely my fault though , because I made a HORRIBLE shot before I was ready to shoot.

I think that 90% of the penitration is shot placement (don't shoot them in the shoulder.... ) and the other 10 percent (equally important) is the broadhead. All the articles I have read in various magazine, websites, etc. have said that a cut-on-contact broadhead like the G5 Montec, NAP HellRazor, or the Magnus Snuffer series penitrate considerably better than the chisle tips like you used or the Muzzy FX series heads. They penitrate better do to the fact that they are razor-sharp from the tip to the end of the blade and they don't have a less-sharp part in the way to stop them from cutting flesh on contact.

Good luck, I hope this helps.
44magHunter

[ceb]

Deerwacker444, please know that the following is just my opinion and that I am a traditional archer and have been since before traditional was traditional (before compounds). I regularly get full penetration on deer and frankly I probably get in the neighborhood of half the kinetic energy that your bow produces, so I don't give kinetic energy much thought. The first thing I would change would be the broadhead, to a cut on impact type. In my opinion your using a tremendous amount of energy trying to push that head through hide, bone and flesh. I used to teach bowhunter ed through the NBEF and one of the demonstrations I would do was to measure the amount of force it took to get a broadhead through a green cowhide. A cut on impact head would take 3-5# on average, while a head with a trocar, bullet or other tip simular to yours would commonly take 40# or more, some as much as 70#.

Also I would consider uping my arrow weight, I know in compound circles that just not what you do, but I do think it would help. The Professional Bowhunters Society has long required a 450gr minimum arrow weight for big game and I think its a good idea. I looked up your previous thread and see your shooting 70#, so your only shooting a little over 6gr of arrow weight per # of bow weight. In traditional circles 9-10gr per pound has been the standard for years with many going as high as 11-12# or more. You might compromise a bit and add a hundred grains or so, You'll only lose 20-25 fps and gain a quieter bow and harder hitting arrow.

I also suggest reading the Ashby articles on Tradgang.com, some good info there. Just to give you something else to think about, my bow is a 60# at my draw length longbow shooting a 600gr arrow at about 175fps and the last deer I shot with it was quartering away at about 30yds and I got complete penetration including through the off side shoulder. Deer went down in seconds and ran about 70yds. Hope this helps, and you take no offense, I not anti-compound.

[xxclaro]

How is your arrow flight? If the bow is poorly tuned and the arrow is fishtailing, you'll loose a lot of your penetration. An arrow that impacts nice and straight will penetrate much better than one that impacts even a bit sideways. I shoot almost exactly the same specs as you do, and penetration is not an issue. I've broke through shoulder blades,and this year I hit one quatering too a bit too much,and the arrow exited out the rear ham. I use the Slick Trick, and it has a very steep blade angle too. Used a Rocket Steelhead mechanical this year and got a complete pass-through with it as well. Have you paper tuned the bow?

[CEMENTHEAD]

Also I would consider uping my arrow weight, I know in compound circles that just not what you do, but I do think it would help. The Professional Bowhunters Society has long required a 450gr minimum arrow weight for big game and I think its a good idea. I looked up your previous thread and see your shooting 70#, so your only shooting a little over 6gr of arrow weight per # of bow weight. In traditional circles 9-10gr per pound has been the standard for years with many going as high as 11-12# or more. You might compromise a bit and add a hundred grains or so, You'll only lose 20-25 fps and gain a quieter bow and harder hitting arrow.

I also suggest reading the Ashby articles on Tradgang.com, some good info there. Just to give you something else to think about, my bow is a 60# at my draw length longbow shooting a 600gr arrow at about 175fps and the last deer I shot with it was quartering away at about 30yds and I got complete penetration including through the off side shoulder. Deer went down in seconds and ran about 70yds. Hope this helps, and you take no offense, I not anti-compound.

+1 ....I shoot 500 grain carbon arrows, @ 60 lbs draw, with the discontinued G5 B52 2blade cut on contact broad heads and have always had complete pass throughs (9 deer). Thanks, Tom

[deerwhacker444]

Thanks for all the replies, good info. I'll paper test my bow this weekend and go from there.

[Lastmohecken]

I have used a 3 bladed Wasp in compound bows, and my crossbow, for darned near 30yrs, and even though they are a bit dated by now, they have never failed me on penetration. I still use aluminum arrows, and feather fletching.

When I use a recurve, I have had very good luck with the plain old single bladed (2 cutting edges, some call this a 2 blade head) cut on contact type broadhead. I prefer the old Bear Razorhead, that you file yourself, but I leave the small bleeder blades out. Even though this looks old timey, and I guess it is, it's still a darned fine killing head, for a recurve bow. However they don't fly good enough for me, when using a fast bow like my crossbow, or a modern compound bow, but then again I never tried to use them much, in the compounds, since I have had very good luck with the 3 bladed Wasp in those weapons.

You don't need any of those fancy heads out now, they're just trying to reinvent the wheel.