Marlin 1894 SS .44 Mag

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:00 pm

I am a police patrol sergeant who also serves as a SWAT team member. I am on the entry team but I have received Federal training to become one of the department's sniper/counter sniper. I am familiar with many firearms and feel I have mastered quite a few "black guns," BUT...

I have never owned a lever action and want one. Just because. I want to hurl large caliber lead down range and I favor large caliber lead while hunting. I have lurked here and read many posts and I do not believe I am repeating a post when I ask, "What do the majority of levergunners think about a levergun in stainless?" Specifically, what do you levergun fans think of the Marlin 1894 SS in .44 magnum? Is stainless too "modern" in your opinion? After hunting in very foul weather recently I think I will like the stainless better and plan to buy a matching wheelgun in stainless.

I am a relatively new hunter and have killed deer with an open sight .50 Cal muzzleloader and a scoped .300 Win Mag. As a sniper I appreciate a scoped weapon because of it's ability to reach out and touch the target. However, where I hunt the woods are densely wooded and very brushy. Visibility is next to zero. I like to carry the open sighted muzzleloader in the woods and a scope is just a hindrance at the range I am hunting at.

I have decided to purchase a lever action because of this. I have shot my brother-in-law's Marlin 45-70 and while the recoil was heavy it was no more unpleasant to me than a .300 Win Mag. Since I want to eventually get a "paired" rifle/revolver, unless I buy a BFR revolver in 45-70 (not likely), I think my best option is a .44 Mag.

While I am rambling, because I'm a cop I always carry my .45 Sig Sauer P220 everywhere I go. This includes hunting. (This includes to the bathroom, to the store, down the driveway to get the paper...yeah...I know... But, just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean THEY aren't out to get me) Two legged creatures may rear their ugly head some time and I like to keep a sidearm handy. I carry a S&W model 36 snub on my ankle as a back-up when I work so I use, and like, wheel guns as well. Like some of you, I plan to buy a "paired" pistol in the same caliber as the rifle. I will probably not compete in CAS or experience a shortage of available ammo, but a paired team of weapons just appeals to me. I do not reload but I am considering it. Seems like most of you favor either a .357 Mag combo or a .44 Mag combo. A .357 seems light for deer or hog IMHO. I believe I will buy the rifle first and think I want to purchase the Marlin 1894 SS in .44 Mag. Later, when I have saved enough money, I thought about buying a Ruger Redhawk or S&W 629 or similar model.

I am restricted to what pistol I can carry off-duty. I have to qualify on a timed firing course and loading a single action is not feasible. The Redhawk or S&W should allow me to qualify quickly with the swing out cylinder. (If I can handle the recoil...) I like the idea of a compact lever action rifle with ten rounds of .44 mag as well and plan to carry it in my jeep with me as the "go to gun" if my sidearm isn't enough.

Seriously though, I appreciate your opinions as veteran levergunners and look forward to getting to know you all.

joakleigh · Post by **joakleigh** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:41 pm

Irish_Cop wrote: "What do the majority of levergunners think about a levergun in stainless?" Specifically, what do you levergun fans think of the Marlin 1894 SS in .44 magnum? Is stainless too "modern" in your opinion? After hunting in very foul weather recently I think I will like the stainless better and plan to buy a matching wheelgun in stainless.

I believe stainless should be considered a matter of personal opinion if its what you want then by all means get it. I don't own a stainless gun but almost did. About 2 weeks ago i went to pick up a Marlin 1895g in 45-70 the first gun i asked to look at was the stainless version as i was certain that it was the rifle i was gonna get. After playing with the action for a bit i noticed the reflection and the glare the finish was producing and decided that it would'nt make the good close quarters gun that i was looking for. This is something your gonna probably want to take into consideration but if you don't go with what you really want your not gonna be happy so if you prefer stainless than go for it

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:52 pm

Stainless too modern?

Not if you scuff it up a bit.

As for .357 not being enough for deer or hog... well, personal opinion counts for a lot when it comes to confidence, but here's what a .357 can do at 110yds:

Plenty of gun.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:31 pm

I mostly hunt cedar swamps, thickets, and other NorthEastern jungles.

JMO, but I won't hunt with a bare stainless gun, because I feel it "stands out" from my surroundings too much.
My only stainless rifle, a T/C Omega .50 muzzleloader, is covered with cloth camo tape.

IMO, a blued rifle barrel will seem to be a branch, to game - until it's too late.

YMMV.

PPpastordon · Post by **PPpastordon** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:43 pm

First; RELOAD! This stretches the ammo $$ tremendously. It also adds a versatility to any caliber you might choose. I find this especially true for the .44 Mag.

I love stainless lever/handgun combos. Unfortunately, the .357 is the only combo I have now. It is great for deer, but I want something heavier for hogs - if I ever get to go hog hunting!

I am looking for the time I can add a stainless .44 lever to go with my Redhawk. The blued lever is nice, but a stainless would be better, IMHO.

These combos are excellent for hunting, especially if in a moist area of this country - and that covers a lot of it. It can be pretty wet here in Indiana.

BTW; stainless guns are not, as some believe, never with stains. They also "rust," just not as quickly or severely as regular steels. They "stain less" than other steels!

Grace and Peace

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:24 pm

Welcome to the fire!

Agree with the previous posts on caliber, finish and reloading. One word of warning - levergunning is highly addictive! Might as well start with a .44 - but you'll end up wanting a .45-70, a .22, a .45 Colt, a .357 Magnum...

Marlin .35 · Post by **Marlin .35** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:51 pm

Years ago I would have agreed with your caliber choice without exception. That is until I started seeing the many,many animals that are shot with 180gr .357 MAgs. Now I would opt for the .357 MNag and never look back. And there are a lot more choices in your sidearm!!! Welcome to the forum!! We are glad that you are here!!! Art

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:10 pm

Welcome to the forum IC. There are quite a few LEO's both past and present here on the forum. You might also consider a lever in .454 and pair that with a .45 Colt handgun. I'm partial to the S&W Mountain gun myself.

Happy Trails and God Bless,
Rusty <><

Tumbleweeds · Post by **Tumbleweeds** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:47 pm

I have a .44 mag Redhawk and like it, but I wouldn't want to try to conceal it. Drop it in your pocket, and you'd better be wearing either suspenders or clean underwear. An N-frame Smith is lighter, but still a lunker. Qualifying wouldn't be a problem, just load it with .44 Special or CAS .44 mag rounds and shoot away.

If I were looking for a constant companion carry gun in a lever action caliber, I would buy a "pair" of .357s.

If you go the heavy revolver route, don't forget the .41 mag. It will kill anything a .44 will, and shoots flatter.

Finally, look at Gary Reeder's web site. He makes custom dehorned Redhawks and custom Marlin 94 rifles, and the pictures will have you thinking of selling some other guns.

I know of no one who makes a .45 ACP lever action. Unfortunately.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:57 pm

Darn, it blew the skin halfway off.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:00 am

If you type dam and put an n on the end it will print darn on the screen. darn these things are smart.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:43 am

darn your right now that is darn funny

.
Now as a member of the leverguns .45colt club I have to recomend a Rossi 92 in .45colt with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45colt to pair it up with.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:54 am

I have an 1894SS. It shoots great, no problems with it except some of the screws in the receiver tend to loosen. Loctite fixes that.
Too modern in appearance? Not to me!

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:44 am

Plus one on the Puma .454 lever/.45 Colt revolver combo! I'd also considered this setup. If you like DA's, You might also consider the .480, since you can also shoot .454's and .45 Colts.

As for the stainless, it's just a personal decision. You can have them bead blasted to keep shine down with a matte finish. I personally prefer stainless revolvers and blued rifles. You can use Birchwood Casey's "Sheath" to prevent rust. It also makes cleanup easier.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:14 pm

First, thank you all for your advice. There are a lot of knowledgeable people willing to help the new guy. You have all made me feel very welcome. I was afraid I would annoy most everyone asking the same questions you must have answered a thousand times already.

I guess Iâ€™ll start responding with the posts thenâ€¦

The Knight muzzleloader I shoot has a subdued stainless finish and I find that is blends in with the woods, looking like nothing more than a shiny birch tree. The matte finish does â€œshineâ€

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:19 pm

darn, that is funny...

I forgot to mention sights but my opinion is that I will mount a ghost ring sight. I am used to them from shooting the M-16. I like how they focus the eye automatically and they seem more stable to me than the standard buckhorn sights.

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:35 pm

Also, I concede that a .357 is enough for deer but I am worried about a feral hog charging me with a mouth full of razor like tusks. Has anyone hunted hogs with a .357?

I reload a 158gr hardcast SWC for 357mag that have done great on some good size hogs, but you can also buy some very stout factory loads that'll do just as well on a hog.

From what Iâ€™ve read the .44 out powers the .45 long colt though.

While factory standard pressure ammo show that 45colt is anemic to 44mag, there are a couple of factory loads out there that surpass the 44mag. Cor bon, buffalo bore, double tap make excellent hunting loads that surpass most 44mag loads.

I may be able to find .44 or .357 rounds easier.

That is true. But reloading allows you more options than most will ever know.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:56 pm

Irish_Cop wrote:...Old Ironsights, where did you get your rifle bead blasted and how much did it cost? It really seems like a good compromise in looks vs. functionality. Also, I concede that a .357 is enough for deer but I am worried about a feral hog charging me with a mouth full of razor like tusks. Has anyone hunted hogs with a .357? ...

Steve Young (aka Nate Kiowa Jones) of www.stevesguns.com put the Williams FP, Bead Blast and tune job on that Rossi 92.

I don't think you have to worry about a hog charging too much after eating a hard cast 180gr pill at 1800fps...

Here's the Factory Load: from Buffalo Bore (available online or at Cabelas Stores)

a. Item 19A/20-180gr. Hard Cast = 1851 fps
b. Item 19B/20-170gr. JHC = 1860 fps
c. Item 19C/20-158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps
d. Item 19D/20-125gr. Speer Uni Core = 2298 fps

Oh, and I DO shoot the 180/1800s out of my 2" SP101... Snappy, but controlable...

trooper joe · Post by **trooper joe** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:02 pm

Irish_Cop wrote:I am a police patrol sergeant who also serves as a SWAT team member. I am on the entry team but I have received Federal training to become one of the department's sniper/counter sniper. I am familiar with many firearms and feel I have mastered quite a few "black guns," BUT...

I have never owned a lever action and want one..............

Irish Cop,

I was just talking to a SWAT member from Central Illinois who told me that there was some discussion for urban police departments to consider a lever action rifle/carbine in a pistol caliber (.357 or .44 Mag) as a patrol car rifle.

Seems that it is more politically correct to get out of the patrol car with a "John Wayne" type of gun rather than a black gun (AR, etc.).

In the 60's, when the rules were looser, I carried a .357 lever action Winchester Model 92 (converted from a 32-20) on patrol as a State Trooper at the Flint, Michigan Post. Got one award with this gun by capturing two RA suspects from the North Flint area during a blockade.

Rules tightened up, and I carried what was issued for the next 20 years.

When I retired, I started buying lever guns in the early-mid 90s. I have a number of combinations [45 Colt in both a Rossi, stainless steel and a Ruger New Vaquero; as well as a .357 S&W and a neat .357 Marlin Model 94 and a .357 in a Browning, B-92 (drool you guys who have been looking for one of these

)]

Because of my love affair with lever guns, I have many others (44-40; 44 Mag; 45-70; 32-20; Model 9422 in .22 Cal; 336 Marlin in .35 Rem; two Model 94 Winchesters in .32 Special and 30-30/both pre 64)..

So my adivise is be careful or you may get the lever gun sickness.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:49 pm

Welcome to the fire!

I just wanted to add that I've never noticed a need for stainless here in the Shenandoah Valley. If you're in the Danville area I don't suppose it is much wetter than it is here...

That said, it is all down to personal preference. I won't kick you out of the truck for having a stainless gun.

If you want to throw really big lead get a stainless guide gun in .45-70.

If you truly intend to use the gun as a patrol rifle, get the .357 Mag. I think there are several reasons to do so aside from magazine capacity, ammo interusability with other responding officers (possibly), effectiveness, public relations, etc. It is also cheaper to feed. With lead prices climbing, this may become very important in the future (and I like the big bores, too!).

Could you tell us what county you're in? If not, I understand...

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:57 pm

Trooper Joe, after I become proficient with my soon to be purchased lever action I plan to ask the chief if I can carry it while on duty. My patrol car is weighed down with tactical gear and multiple weapons for different jobs. I carry two pistols, have a 12 gauge Remington shotgun locked above my head, a full sized M-16 army surplus for tactical operations (too large for effective entry and I leave it behind more often than not), and a Rem 700 in .308 for the sniper work. I have to maintain the Rem 700, but I could give up the shotgun and M-16 to two other officers if the chief allows me to carry the lever action. I donâ€™t know if I can sell him on it though. Do you have any links to info I could persuade him with?

Iâ€™d like to hear more about your days â€œIn the 60's, when the rules were looserâ€¦â€

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:15 pm

Hobie, as an administrator of this site I think it would be safe to tell you personally where I live but it may be premature to post it so publicly. I have been reading some other posts and not everyone here is politically friendly to law enforcement. Until I hear from you privately, Iâ€™ll tell you that I donâ€™t live too far away from youâ€¦a short day trip would find you in my jurisdiction. We face similar hunting weather and wanting to put the rifle into police service I think stainless would serve me better. (Thanks for not kicking me out of your truck though!)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:34 pm

Irish_Cop wrote:... I have been reading some other posts and not everyone here is politically friendly to law enforcement. ...

IMO, there is a difference between how many of us view the Officers (past & Present) on this forum and the actions of specific departments & certain situations. (Note that I live near ChiTown. Lotsa good cops, but it IS (or was anyway... new Super now...) still ChiTown at the Top... )

Political Disagreements are largely whizzen matches that hopefully mean both sides are (re)evaluating their positions.

Don't be shy. We ain't comin ta git ya.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:26 pm

Old Ironsights, I was not selecting you out when I mentioned that there are parties not friendly to law enforcement here at this site. As a matter of fact I respect that, from what Iâ€™ve seen so far, you seem to fairly weigh the issues and then offer an opinion. We may or may not agree on all issues but Iâ€™d defend your right to say them with my life. I donâ€™t even know where you stand on all issues so that has no bearing on my decision to only list SW Virginia as my location. You yourself only list â€œIndiana side of the Daley Empireâ€

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:09 pm

No worries mate. I took no personal offense.

I agree that no one need (or necessairly should) divulge exactly where they are - and maybe, in your case, listing a county is close enough to ID you, or at least your department - but I just wanted to let you know that I don't believe anyone here - no mater how bitterly we may disagree on certain points - would stoop to endangering/harrassing any other member.

Nobody here is like that, nor would anyone else tolerate it.

Anywhoo - back to Stainless Leverguns:

I did mention earlier that Steve Young (www.stevesguns.com) did the rifle for me.

I ordered it direct, he did all the good bits then sent it to my FFL for a very fair price.

Before I ordered it, I spent a good bit ruminating over the same issues, though I was trying to decide between a .454/.45 combo and the .357.

I opted for the .357 because of the availability of .38 & .357 ammo over .45Colt/.454, and the authorship of Paco & others demonstrating how much betterthe .357 is out of a rifle than one would expect.

While there are advantages in the .44, IMO they are offset by the higher cost of commercial ammunition, components, and the relative lack of commercially available sub-caliber (.44special) ammunition.

Cheap to shoot, but still effective, is a good thing.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:15 pm

Old Ironsights, I did see that you had posted the site before but I was trying to redirect this back to the rifle issue. I am going to check on the site and thank you!

Did you have the rifle sent to him brand new or had you had it awhile and then decide to send it off? Was it very expensive? I have saved $300 towards the rifle so far and don't know how much more I would need to save.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:17 pm

Stevesguns seems to be a Rossi man but I guess he would be able to bead blast any other gun. I'll have to look around here and see if it can be done close enough not to mail it.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:28 pm

I ordered the gun from Steve NIB and had him do a package for me. Never touched the gun before he was done.

Back last year when I ordered it it was a $100 option on the gun I bought from him.

Dunno what other folks charge, but it couldn't be too different. (Really, anyone with a BB Tank could probably do it if they understand which bits to tape off once the wood is off...)

Win94 · Post by **Win94** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:28 pm

The only stainless i own is my Guidegun in .45-70 I very much enjoy it.

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:41 pm

I've never been a big fan of stainless guns, just personal choice, but I did come across a 357 Blackhawk stainless that followed me home. Come to think of it a 16" 92 in stainless would look awfull good with it.
Maybe I'm not to old to change after all

Oh, and welcome.

trooper joe · Post by **trooper joe** » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:17 pm

"Trooper Joe, after I become proficient .................................."

Irish Cop--

Wow, looks like my reply got a lot of guys thinking about the law enforcement view of lever guns, etc.

My favorite carbine/rifle is a .357/.38 Marlin 1894 CS with a "Micro-Groove" barrel. Had this gun for about 10 years and finally had a trigger job (the original was gratey and seemed to have a slight "step" in the pull). It is now smooth a silk with about a 2 lb pull which I had to get used to.

Got rid of the cross bolt safety, and installed a set of XS Ghost Ring sights last fall. Carried it deer hunting with 180-grn ammo along with some .38 target loads for squirrels which are plentiful in our North Michigan woods during deer season.

This gun is fantastic and much better than the converted Winchester I carried in the 60â€™s.

MSP still issues a small wheel gun for a back up and off duty use (my daughter who is a State Trooper with 21 years in the agency says it is a .357 stainless steel S&W). So as far as a companion piece, a .357 rifle/carbine would fit right in.

The RA (robbery armed) suspects mentioned, were two unfortunate young males in the Flint area who robbed a party store (I think because their mama beat them when they were two years old). I stopped them and held them at gun point with my Model 19 S&W .357, waiting for Flint PD to pick them up. I realized that my .357 carbine was a better choice, so I switched from the revolver to the carbine. In doing so, I cut my thumb on the adjustable sights on the S&W.

When Flint PD showed up, they saw the blood on my thumb and were getting real serious about an â€œattitude adjustmentâ€

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:14 pm

Win94, that is a nice gun! I canâ€™t tell if the stocks are synthetic or wood. The picture is dark and it is too hard to tell. I've not heard of a black synthetic stock levergun so it is probably just a dark wood.

Gon2shoot, glad I could serve as your museâ€¦Hope you have fun with your next purchase.

Trooper Joe, thanks for the story! You handled yourself well and Iâ€™m glad you are alive to tell the tale. We all tell war stories if we have been in the field for any amount of time. Helps to pass the time and put things in perspective. When the stories help other officers stay safe in the field it really strikes home. It doesnâ€™t matter how many years or miles separate us, we face the same trouble on the street. I especially liked the comical cynicism you exhibited when you said the two suspects robbed the store â€œâ€¦because their mama beat them when they were two years old.â€

DDude · Post by **DDude** » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:40 pm

I was just talking to a SWAT member from Central Illinois who told me that there was some discussion for urban police departments to consider a lever action rifle/carbine in a pistol caliber (.357 or .44 Mag) as a patrol car rifle.

Seems that it is more politically correct to get out of the patrol car with a "John Wayne" type of gun rather than a black gun (AR, etc.).

I personally hold LEO's who dress in black ninja suits with their faces covered behaving as though they are in a military unit in high contempt. If they want to play the part of a soldier, the federal government has a place for them in the military. Civilian law enforcement agencies should remain civilian, not paramilitary.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:41 am

Irish_Cop,

Welcome to the forum, this place has a lot of real experience with Levers, and has corrected quite a few misunderstandings I used to have.

Some articles that helped explained things to me are here:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm

I also carry a P220 on patrol in my beat, which is in one of our local versions of the ghetto and also where I live. After 18 years, the local thugs know me. My first pistol Lever was a .44 M94, it is great. That said, the .357 Levers do more than I ever thought, and I bought one a while back.

Winchesters, tuned EMFs from Steve, and Marlins all work well. Marlins have some die hard fans..

The home website for here lists some other Levergunsmiths that have earned their due, but Steve Young is the only one I've dealt with (he is worth it).

Policy says we carry AR type 223's on duty, but I get to test things (like Levers) through our qualification courses. Aside from reloading as "slow" as an 870, they are a huge advantage over handguns. (Kinda rare to need to reload the 870....)

Recoil wise, the .357 Lever has none; and they have a lot more power than our old revolvers. The .44 and .45 Levers can have a lot of recoil, and they are close to each other in power (lots more) too.

Accuracy wise, compared to service handguns, Levers shoot so much better for me that it is no comparison. For hunting, some of the Lever shooters here shoot better than many bolt shooters at the same distances.

When standing on my two legs, two 16" M94s (one .357 and one .44 Mag) both give me nose size groups out to 25 yards. A 20" EMF M92 (bought used and then tuned by Steve Young) gives me the same groups out to fifty yards, when braced against a barricade or doorway. The .357 has lots of power and no recoil; the 44 magnum has more of both.

Not bad for home, for a lot of what happens on street patrol around here, or when hunting. Others on this forum have shown what the .45/Lever combo can do, and they finally convinced me to buy a used 16"er. Yup, it's all their fault.

So for myself, the .357 Lever's big advantages are the .357 round and a lack of recoil. The .44 and .45 Levers hit harder on both ends. The .45 Long Colt, with the right loads and barrel length, can nip at the heels of some 45-70 loads. All shine when using the right loads, and except for handiness and concealment, they simply leave handguns in the dust.

I'd say buy whichever stainless Marlin you want, have it beadblasted, put a Williams receiver sight on it, and enjoy it. Sooner or later, get a tuned M92.

Best, and welcome again.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:02 am

DDude wrote:
I was just talking to a SWAT member from Central Illinois who told me that there was some discussion for urban police departments to consider a lever action rifle/carbine in a pistol caliber (.357 or .44 Mag) as a patrol car rifle.

Seems that it is more politically correct to get out of the patrol car with a "John Wayne" type of gun rather than a black gun (AR, etc.).
I personally hold LEO's who dress in black ninja suits with their faces covered behaving as though they are in a military unit in high contempt. If they want to play the part of a soldier, the federal government has a place for them in the military. Civilian law enforcement agencies should remain civilian, not paramilitary.

Yeah, keep complaining. Go to congress, maybe we'll end up with military doing our policing. THAT would be an improvement. Yeah, right.

We NEED SWAT for certain situations.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:30 pm

Thank you Travis! I was about to post something to Ddude about his post but you beat me to it.

Ddude, Why donâ€™t you think police departments need paramilitary units? Even cops call 911 when situations go bad. Regular patrol officers, for the most part, are not trained to go into extremely dangerous situations. Patrol officers handle order maintenance tasks, that is, they handle calls for service, serve warrants, and perform traffic related services (Yes, they do sooo much more but this is a brief post).

I am on the SWAT team and we are not the jack-booted thugs that Ddude is portraying us as. We are highly trained and when a situation arises that requires a wee bit more than a parking ticket (sarcasm dripping) they call us to get the job done.

Ddude, who do you think should enter the barricaded residence of an armed crack dealer? The Girl Scouts? Maybe they could tempt the crackhead out with cookiesâ€¦waitâ€¦that would only work on a munchie hungry pothead.

Win94 · Post by **Win94** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:04 pm

Win94, that is a nice gun! I canâ€™t tell if the stocks are synthetic or wood. The picture is dark and it is too hard to tell. I've not heard of a black synthetic stock levergun so it is probably just a dark wood.

Irish cop, thats a wood stock roughed up with 80 grit, painted with flat black as a primer then three coats of truck bedliner. The rifle gets layed against trees and stumps in bear country while i am stream fishing and i wanted a durable finish. Truck bedliner does an awesome job and is used by a a few guides in Alaska as well.

Rod WMG · Post by **Rod WMG** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:32 pm

I only own two stainless levers, a Marlin Guide Gun and a Rossi .357. I have several stainless handguns.

I have a blue Marlin 94 .44 mag, which is very accurate, and a wonderful gun, just not as slick as the Rossi. I'd have every reason the Marlin SS would be fine. A Smith Mountain Gun in .44 mag would make a great companion to it. Saves some weight over many Smiths and isn't as painful to shoot as the 28 oz. Smith .44, which doesn't come in stainless or a looks-like-stainless so far as I know.

A great blued gun is a thing of beauty, but for day in and day out, I prefer stainless in handguns and rifles.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:47 pm

"I'd say buy whichever stainless Marlin you want, have it beadblasted, put a Williams receiver sight on it, and enjoy it. Sooner or later, get a tuned M92. "

If you like the .357 Marlin, and want stainless, consider Ro-bar or some sort of similar finishing.

.357 vs. .44 is also a little less likely to come across as 'overkill' to shooting review boards, and realistically, is likely to be plenty powerful.

As to the comments on 'black ninja' SWAT - I think I'd respect them if they changed two things about their behavior:

1. Not descend on gun owners at the behest of anti-gun sheriff or police chiefs, under some flimsy pretext of "He had an 'arsenal'..." I know most of this is the BATFE, but I'd respect the SWATs of the world (and their superiors) if the city/state insisted they be involved in ATF actions - to be there to protect the citizen.

2. Not descend on homes (including innocent 'wrong-address' ones!) for 'drug war' matters. I don't think people should abuse any intoxicants to the point of harming themselves, and they should be held liable for ANY harm to others they cause when intoxicated (whether on booze or LSD), but I don't want to live in a police state and risk stray bullets just to keep my neighbor from smoking pot or whatever stupid thing he/she wants to do.

Here's an example of why I can't respect SWAT - the "just following orders" stuff sounds too reminiscent of Nazi rationalization...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=59566

SWAT officers invade home, take 11-year-old at gunpoint
Cops demand boy go to doctor because of fall during horseplay

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Posted: January 7, 2008
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Bob Unruh
Â© 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

Nearly a dozen members of a police SWAT team in western Colorado punched a hole in the front door and invaded a family's home with guns drawn, demanding that an 11-year-old boy who had had an accidental fall accompany them to the hospital, on the order of Garfield County Magistrate Lain Leoniak.

The boy's parents and siblings were thrown to the floor at gunpoint and the parents were handcuffed in the weekend assault, and the boy's father told WND it was all because a paramedic was upset the family preferred to care for their son themselves.

Someone, apparently the unidentified paramedic, called police, the sheriff's office and social services, eventually providing Leoniak with a report that generated the magistrate's court order to the sheriff's office for the SWAT team assault on the family's home in a mobile home development outside of Glenwood Springs, the father, Tom Shiflett, told WND.

WND calls and e-mails to Garfield County Social Services were not returned, and Leoniak, who earlier served as a water court clerk/referee, also was not available.

Sheriff Lou Vallario, however, did call back, and told WND he ordered his officers to do exactly what the magistrate demanded.

"I was given a court order by the magistrate to seize the child, and arrange for medical evaluation, and that's what we did," he said.

According to friends of the family, Tom Shiflett, who has 10 children including six still at home, and served with paramedics in Vietnam, was monitoring his son's condition himself.

The paramedic and magistrate, however, ruled that that wasn't adequate, and dispatched the officers to take the boy, John, to a hospital, where a doctor evaluated him and released him immediately.

The accident happened during horseplay, Tom Shiflett told WND. John was grabbing the door handle of a car as his sister was starting to drive away slowly. He slipped, fell to the ground and hit his head, Shiflett said.

He immediately carried his son into their home several doors away, and John was able to recite Bible verses and correctly spell words as his father and mother, Tina, requested. There were no broken bones, no dilated eyes, or any other noticeable problems.

The family, whose members live by faith and homeschool, decided not to call an ambulance. But a neighbor did call Westcare Ambulance, and paramedics responded to the home, asking to see and evaluate the boy.

The paramedics were allowed to see the boy, and found no significant impairment, but wanted to take him to the hospital for an evaluation anyway. Fearing the hospital's bills, the family refused to allow that.

"This apparently did not go over well with one of the paramedics and they started getting aggravated at Tom for not letting them have their way," a family acquaintance told WND.

"The paramedics were not at all respectful of Tom's decision, nor did they act in a manner we would expect from professional paramedics," the acquaintance said.

So the ambulance crew, who also could not be reached by WND, called police, only to be told the decision was up to the Shiflett familiy.

The paramedics then called the sheriff's office, and officers responded to the home, and were told everyone was being cared for.

Then the next day, Friday, social services workers appeared at the door and demanded to talk with John "in private."

They were so persistent Tom ended up having to get John out of the bathtub he was just soaking in, to bring him to the front porch where the social workers could see him, the family reported.

Then, following an afternoon shopping trip to town, the family settled in for the evening, only to be shocked with the SWAT team attack.

The sheriff said the decision to use SWAT team force was justified because the father was a "self-proclaimed constitutionalist" and had made threats and "comments" over the years.

However, the sheriff declined to provide a single instance of the father's illegal behavior. "I can't tell you specifically," he said.

"He was refusing to provide medical care," the sheriff said.

However, the sheriff said if his own children were involved in an at-home accident, he would want to be the one to make decisions on their healthcare, as did Shiflett.

"I guess if that was one of my children, I would make that decision," the sheriff said.

But he said Shiflett was "rude and confrontational" when the paramedics arrived and entered his home without his permission.

The sheriff also admitted that the injury to the child had been at least 24 hours earlier, because the fall apparently happened Thursday afternoon, and the SWAT attack happened late Friday evening.

Officials with the Home School Legal Defense Association reported they were looking into the case, because of requests from family friends who are members of the organization.

"While people can debate whether or not the father should have brought his son to the ER â€“ it seems like this was not the kind of emergency that warrants this kind of outrageous conduct by government officials," a spokesman said.

Tom Shiflett said when John was evaluated by the physician, "they didn't find anything wrong with him."

He said the paramedics never should have entered his home, but they followed his wife in the front door when she came in.

"My attention was on my son," Shiflett said.

He said the SWAT team punched a hole in his door with a ramrod, and the first officer in the home pointed a gun right in the face of Tom's 20-year-old daughter.

"I don't know where social services ever got started, or where they got their authority," he said. "But I want to know why we have something in this country that violates our rights, that takes a parental right away."

He said he saw a multitude of injuries in Vietnam, and while he recognized that his son needed to be watched, he wasn't willing to turn his child over to the paramedics.

With 10 children, most of them older than John, it's not as if he hasn't seen a bruise or two, either, he said.

"Now I'm hunting for lawyers that will take the case â€¦ I'm going to sue everybody whose name was on that page right down to the judge," he said.

Mike Donnelly, a lawyer with the HSLDA, told WND the case had a set of circumstances that could be problematic for authorities.

"In Doe V. Heck, the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals held that parents have a fundamental right to familial relations including a liberty interest in the care, custody and control of their children," he said.

He also said many social services agencies apply "a one size fits all approach" to cases, regardless of circumstances.

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He said the SWAT team punched a hole in his door with a ramrod, and the first officer in the home pointed a gun right in the face of Tom's 20-year-old daughter.

If I were on a jury asked to decide whether the family member should be found guilty had they blown the head off that SWAT team member, with all due resepect for law enforcement, I'd find the homeowner not guilty. I suspect too many knee-jerk 'law and order' types might just think you should go along with that kind of nonsense and 'support law enforcement,' but at what point do you draw the line...?

Doing lots of GOOD things (I know SWAT deals with lots of truly dangerous bad guys) does NOT justify this kind of thing, and I simply cannot respect SWAT team members who would participate in this kind of thing, or the 'superiors' who send them out. Yes, mistakes happen, but after going on ONE mission like this, even if they were told the family was armed and dangerous and endangering the child or whatever B.S. the social services came up with, if the team had any integrity, THEY would insist that the superior who called them out on this raid be immediately out of office.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:49 pm

Win94, that is an excellent job on that stock. I know the purists are screaming in rage but you did an incredible job of weatherproofing the stock and IMHO it looks great!

Did you have one of the bed liner companies spray the bed liner on the stock or did you do it yourself? Does it have a rubberized feel or more like hard plastic? The Ruger M77 Mark II I have is in the All Weather finish and would match yours perfectly.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:35 pm

Saying â€œHere's an example of why I can't respect SWATâ€

Win94 · Post by **Win94** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:37 pm

Win94, that is an excellent job on that stock. I know the purists are screaming in rage but you did an incredible job of weatherproofing the stock and IMHO it looks great!

Did you have one of the bed liner companies spray the bed liner on the stock or did you do it yourself? Does it have a rubberized feel or more like hard plastic? The Ruger M77 Mark II I have is in the All Weather finish and would match yours perfectly.

Win94 · Post by **Win94** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:37 pm

....sorry double tap

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:49 pm

[quote="Irish_Cop"]Saying â€œHere's an example of why I can't respect SWATâ€

Marc Taylor · Post by **Marc Taylor** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:22 pm

Irish_Cop,
Do we have mutual friends?
I'm a Marine, '82-'94. S.S.I.S. Quantico 3-'86. Therefore, an 8542 MOS.

Go straight for the .45-70, then you'll be ready for everything up to and including Alaska bears!

Taylor

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:28 pm

Irish_Cop wrote: How about you reword your flippant comments to read, â€œHere is the reason I donâ€™t like THIS PARTICULAR SWAT team. You are not being fair to SWAT officers that put their lives on the line.

Good point - I don't mean to offend the 90% who are truly men and women of integrity, but with most other categories of individuals, be they doctors, lawyers, mechanics, or babysitters, you have some time to evaluate them, their reputation, and the interaction isn't usually potentially going to result in imminent death. There ARE doctors who rip off or molest their patients, but they DON'T kick in the patient's door at 3 a.m., and they AREN'T paid with my tax dollars.

A society which excuses the kicking in of doors by armed SWAT for ANY reason other than legitimate and immediate threat to someone's life, is a very dangerous society. Too many SWAT raids seem to be for "violations of rules" which threaten nobody, and are not supported by the Constitution.

I've talked to numerous SWAT team members I know personally, and they express a sincere desire to use their skills to rid the world of dangerous evil, but they ALSO admit that they are vulnerable to being lied to and sent on a hit with false information - i.e. that someone is more 'dangerous' than they really are. After the fact, the make-less-trouble-for-yourself way to deal with it is to rationalize it as an unfortunate miscommunication, or a necessary risk for an otherwise good purpose, but when the raids are over issues like home-schooling, gun ownership, or choices in medical care, I just don't see how any officer with a conscience could participate without being seriously troubled by it.

Isn't there some military code which allows soldiers to refuse to obey unconstitutional/illegal orders? Wouldn't that apply in this kind of case? If not, where would you draw the line?

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:55 pm

Irish Cop,

It's not just those here portaying SWAT in a bad light. It's your fellow SWAT officers. When are you guys gonna have an in-service to teach you how to find the right house? Have you ever watched the show, "Dallas SWAT"? Those idiots are, apparently incapable of doing anything without looking like complete fools. .....and they're COCKY as HELL about it!

AJMD429,

That deal was more of administrative FUBAR, IMHO. When ya call SWAT, they do the SWAT thing. They (SWAT) probably assume that, "Hey, they called US out, these must be pretty bad people!".

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:12 am

Marc, I don't think I know you but there could be a chance. I served in the USAF '92-'96. I was stationed in TX, OK, and Korea. I had orders for Alasaka but they got diverted and I went to Korea instead.

I have given serious thought to the 45-70 but the .44 mag holds ten in the mag tube instead of just 4 in the guided gun. I know...the 45-70 is so much more powerful you don't need follow-up shots, but I am considering carrying this gun while on duty (if I can get permission). I KNOW the chief will not consider a 45-70 but I MAY be able to convince him into letting me carry the .44 or .357.

Knothead · Post by **Knothead** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:50 pm

I KNOW the chief will not consider a 45-70 but I MAY be able to convince him into letting me carry the .44 or .357.

Irish Cop, I work for a medium size (~130 sworn) department in the midwest. Our policy allows a lever to be carried on duty, pistol calibers and the 3030 are authorized after completion of a 24 hour class. We shoot to the 200 in the class, the .357 pales on the steel to the others. The State started the course because there were levers being sold or destroyed (we sell) from pd"s in the state. The state intended to get long guns into cops hands they would stand a better chance, its worked.
The most interesting thing is the but of lever fits between the seat and the doorpost, with the muzzle at your feet. As you exit the crown one merely reaches down and you exit with a long gun. The officers have taken to the levers very well, the SOT team members also bought in once they saw how handy they are. Many AR-15's moved from back seats to trunks over the last year. I carry a 336 in 3030.
I'm an instructor and can say the 3030 is fairing well to those of us who are rifleman. Its hard to beat on the long course.
If you'll pm me I'd be happy to provide you a copy of our course, as well as the course of fire etc.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 1:49 pm

Knothead wrote: The state intended to get long guns into cops hands they would stand a better chance, its worked.

The State did that? I'm jealous, and congrats. Good deal.

Also, this brings up the whole pistol caliber vs rifle caliber thing. Some Depts have left the MP5s and switched completely over to .223s. I don't know why some of those same reasons couldn't be used to Irish_Cop's advantage too. It would be interesting.

It hasn't been that long since our State prisons used the M94/30-30; I don't know about patrol use here.

Marlin 1894 SS .44 Mag

Marlin 1894 SS .44 Mag

Re: Marlin 1894 SS .44 Mag

Carry gun and lever actions

Re: Marlin 1894 SS .44 Mag