What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

bmtshooter · Post by **bmtshooter** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:38 pm

I can't find a reference as to the meaning of the "35" in 25-35 Winchester. Of course the "25" refers to bullet diameter. Maybe the blackpowder loading? Anyone know? My Grandfather used a model 94 saddle ring carbine in 25-35 Winchester for all his deer hunting needs in south Texas. He took lots of whitetails with that rifle.

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:54 pm

I think you will find all the "dash" cartridges used the same meanings except one.
The first number is as you said, calibre, the second is black powder in grains and if you have a third number as in 45-70-405 it is, cal - powder - bullet in grains. The one oddball cartridge is the 38-40 which was in fact a .40 cal with a 38gr powder charge.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:01 pm

gundownunder wrote:The one oddball cartridge is the 38-40 which was in fact a .40 cal with a 38gr powder charge.

...and the .30-06

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:31 pm

And of course the 7-08.

flatnose · Post by **flatnose** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:43 pm

Another odd one. The 250-3000

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:54 pm

.22-250 ... came from the .250-3000 Savage.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 8:56 pm

Sure, lets add the "45-70-500" or the 50-110-300 or maybe the 50-100-450....or about 16 thousand others

The 30-30 and the 25-35 were named that because of the caliber and the grains in SMOKELESS powder. Neither one was ever loaded with black by the factories. It was just a holdover from the old days in naming cartridges. Now, lets talk about the 30-40 Krag. was the "40" for smokeless or black?

-----------------Sixgun

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:15 pm

Sixgun wrote:Sure, lets add the "45-70-500" or the 50-110-300 or maybe the 50-100-450....or about 16 thousand others

The 30-30 and the 25-35 were named that because of the caliber and the grains in SMOKELESS powder. Neither one was ever loaded with black by the factories. It was just a holdover from the old days in naming cartridges. Now, lets talk about the 30-40 Krag. was the "40" for smokeless or black? -----------------Sixgun

i agree, smokeless. krag probly smokeless too, but what powder?

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:33 pm

My head hurts now!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:35 pm

So, did Winchester stamp 25 WCF on their barrels like they did 30 WCF? This cartridge came after the .25 WCF (25-20)...

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:35 pm

Good gracious, doesn't anybody read BOOKS?

PS - How'd I do there Terry? Oh, yeah, I forgot, he's on his way to JT's house... BTW, Paul was at JT's earlier today, maybe tonight as well.

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm

O.S.O.K. wrote:So, did Winchester stamp 25 WCF on their barrels like they did 30 WCF? This cartridge came after the .25 WCF (25-20)...

no

here's a pic [borrowed from gb] of an early 30's barrel mark for 25-35

2535bblmk.jpg

and 20's

2525bblmk2.jpg

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 12:16 am

Hobie wrote:Good gracious, doesn't anybody read BOOKS?

PS - How'd I do there Terry? Oh, yeah, I forgot, he's on his way to JT's house... BTW, Paul was at JT's earlier today, maybe tonight as well.

nice of you to fill in while terry is in transit.

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:03 am

gundownunder wrote:I think you will find all the "dash" cartridges used the same meanings except one.
The first number is as you said, calibre, the second is black powder in grains and if you have a third number as in 45-70-405 it is, cal - powder - bullet in grains.

You're forgetting cartridges like the 577-450 and 303-25.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:41 am

Whereas the -30 in .30-30 denoted the charge weight of smokeless powder (DuPont .30 Caliber U.S. Smokeless Rifle Powder), the -35 in .25-35 does not, since it was originally loaded with 25 grs. of the same smokeless powder.

Winchester apparently did not think that a .25-25 designation was very cool and besides there was already a black powder cartridge so named.

It definitely appears that the -35 was the indication of the total powder capacity of the cartridge case. Several years ago I dissected a couple of early WInchester .25-35 cartridges and using the powder from the 2nd cartridge, I filled the 1st cartridge case to the top and then weighed the charge. BINGO! It weighed 35 grs.

The same is true for the -55 in .38-55 except that the -55 is the qty of b.p. Factory loadings with black powder were 46-47 grs. A 55 gr. black powder charge fills the case to the top.

w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:49 am

gundownunder wrote:I think you will find all the "dash" cartridges used the same meanings except one.
The first number is as you said, calibre, the second is black powder in grains and if you have a third number as in 45-70-405 it is, cal - powder - bullet in grains. The one oddball cartridge is the 38-40 which was in fact a .40 cal with a 38gr powder charge.

Bob,
Actually, it was the .38 W.C.F. that was loaded with 38 grs. of black powder. (Back in 1879-1882 it was loaded with 40 grs. under a 160 gr. bullet. The bullet weight was then increased to 180 grs. and eventually by the early 1890's the powder charge was reduced to 38 grs.)

The .38-40 (Marlin / U.M.C. designation) as loaded by U.M.C. and, later, Winchester, was always factory loaded with 40 grs. of black powder.

w30wcf

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:03 am

gundownunder wrote:I think you will find all the "dash" cartridges used the same meanings except one.
The first number is as you said, calibre, the second is black powder in grains and if you have a third number as in 45-70-405 it is, cal - powder - bullet in grains. The one oddball cartridge is the 38-40 which was in fact a .40 cal with a 38gr powder charge.

]

Actually, the 38 does infer that the round is close to 38 cal. dimensions. Winchester was looking to interest the shooters that already liked the 38 cal size and the use of not quite accurate designation was already established. It was designed to be a companion cartridge for the 44WCF. Winchester's first round, the 44WCF was called "Model of 1873", and not 44WCF until about 1886. The 38WCF was brought out about 1880 and was called 38WCF from the start, and the first to be called WCF, though the brass were apparently not marked until 1886 when both rounds started being marked. The 38-40 designation was started by Marlin and Remington so they wouldn't have to use Winchester's name. Same with the 44-40. Fact is there were rounds made with 36, 38 and 40 grain loads over the years so the old thought that the 40 stood for powder was correct also.
Gobbler

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 6:05 am

Sorry folks, I stand corrected

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:31 am

Seeing as its a necked down 30/30 & having a smaller lighter bullet they could push it faster its probably simply because it was a 25 caliber with 35 grains of whatever smokeless powder they used at the time.
Bore size has never really been on the money & still isn't today. Todays 38's are .357. Our 44's are really 43's & our 45 rifle calibers are closer to 46 than 45, our 30's are .308 ect.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:55 am

-I thought I was a know-it-all with the old Winchester cartridges but by golly, I learn somethin' new everyday. No I gotta unlearn.

Yasable Kid, you think your head hurts. I'm gonna lie down and take a pill.

---------Me

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 9:56 am

I was hoping JohnK would post. John, WHEN is your book coming out?

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Jul 12, 2009 10:08 am

Hobie wrote:Good gracious, doesn't anybody read BOOKS?

PS - How'd I do there Terry?

Needs to be ALL CAPS...

Other than that, it's a good start!

donw · Post by **donw** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:22 am

...pass the ibuprofen...

cpt Dan Blodgett · Post by **cpt Dan Blodgett** » Mon Jul 13, 2009 11:57 pm

Interesting about the dash cartridges. Most the -xx is a powder charge, year as in the 30-06, the parent cartridge as in 7-08 and 25-06 and 22-250, but the 250-3000 savage meant the .250 bullet going down range at 3000 fps (actually 257 bullet, we measure the bore size prior not max diameter after grooves are cut)

Nobody · Post by **Nobody** » Tue Jul 14, 2009 12:18 am

What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

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Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

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THE -35 IN .25-35 STANDS FOR........

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

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Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?

Re: What does the "35" mean in 25-35 Winchester ?