Puma/Legacy 454

[BobBill]

Not seeing any sporting 24" barrels.

Considering manufacturing need to limit operations and parts, it is likely that a standard 45LC 24" barrel rifle could be chambered to handle the 454 round. Yes, the magazine tube is not the same, still, it stands to reason the barrel blanks and metallurgy are identical, regardless of production caliber.

Thoughts?

Know from where a long-barrel 454 can be acquired?

[AJMD429]

Although it would make sense to 'proof' your overall design, and not inventory two sets of receivers (due to extra cost and risk of mixing them up), it is possible the cost savings would be enough to make up for the extra labor and possible the manufacturer would develop ways to mark/track them, so I'm not sure I'd just assume that the parts are identical.

The other factor is that the 'gossip' on the internet is that the .454's are pushing the limits and having functioning difficulties due to the much higher pressure round. 'Gossip' is just that, but still food for thought.

I've not shot mine enough to notice any 'issues' yet (<200 rounds of factory loads) but my intent is to load mine more along the lines of a ".45 Colt +P" - if I really need to thump something harder than that, I'll use a .444 Marlin or the .45-70 Marlin...

[Buffboy]

IIRC, the Puma 454/480 guns had a slightly different receiver. There were some internal modifications to help beef up areas around the magazine and barrel. They have a screw in magazine to prevent it from working out under recoil. I don't know if the barrel threads are the same. The person to ask would be Nate Kiowa Jones, if anyone has done this conversion, he probably was the guy that did it. http://www.stevesgunz.com/index.htm

I wanted a 454 trapper and got one. I have been tempted a couple times to buy another but can't quite see the need. If they had ever built the 24" barreled model that was originally advertised (but never produced) I might reconsider. I seem to be developing a liking for longer barreled leverguns. It seems Legacy is not basing it's Puma on the Rossi made 92 anymore so it looks like the 454 version is heading the way of the Dodo in any variant unless one of the other importers picks it up.

[Pete44ru]

[Yes, the magazine tube is not the same, still, it stands to reason the barrel blanks and metallurgy are identical, regardless of production caliber.]

+3, on the threaded-in mag tube - but the metallurgy isn't necessarily the same - as many manufacturers use a different heat-treat for special applications, in otherwise identical-looking specimens.

.

[BobBill]

Gee, thanks for rapid replies.

I emailed the custom shop above and await his ideas. If possible am going to send him a stainless 24" gun for some work,if cost is not too bad.

I thank all y'all.

I am a bit anal, obviously. I know I could march around with the very versatile 45LC, but would like to have the speedy option of a bigger punch in same rifle. Few rifle/calibers in lever guns really offer that big of an alternative, if needed. this looks like a one time opportunity.

I mean, a nice shooter like the 45LC light or heavy charge, and then a potential light 45-70, in short, strong cartridge that can do whatever and still be shushed a bit.

Still that threaded mag tube could be the stopper...might be easier to re barrel the carbine...

Perhaps the 45LC/454 potential has yet been plumbed!

[BobBill]

A very informative response from Steve at Steve's guns. I thank him for his candor and rapid input.

Adding here for all to see.

There more to it than just chambering to 454. the action has to be modified to work with the longer round. Some parts can be modified. Some parts will need to be replaced.

The easier solution would be to use 454 brass trimmed to 45lc length (454 has a thicker web) then reduce the loads accordingly to compensate for less case capacity. You can easily get 454 ballistics going this route without changing the gun. Just be careful with what gun you use that short 454 ammo in.

My (our) choice is between long barrel 45LC and short barrel 454, or trimming 454 brass to use in 45 LC, or buying one of each rifle.

I am persuaded the hot-loading the Colt in longer barrel rifle makes the most sense... I mean, really, if one needs to hunt bigger critters than a hot 45LC will handle, he or she can always borrow a rifle.

But, still fretting over it a bit.

[BAGTIC]

Anything that can't be killed with a .45 Colt chambered long gun with +P ammunition doesn't deserve to die.

[BobBill]

Well put. Made me smile!

Have decided on 45LC, but, must figure way to prevent mag tube from coming loose from +P loads.

[ace1001]

Put a pin through the front tube carrier. You will loose 2 rounds capacity. Still 10 under a 24 inch barrel. The .454 needs a heavy barrel for accuracy, but the octagon is thinner over the chamber than the carbine barrel. Ace

[CowboyTutt]

As has been pointed out, the receiver/internals and mag tube are different on the 454 version. Why not just buy a 454 Puma and have an aftermarket 24" barrel put on it?? Its not THAT hard to rebarrel a '92. I think that would be safer than the 454 "Short" as there is no load data on it. The 454 Puma receiver's are already stressed to the max; you care to risk your rifle with experimental handloads while you figure it out?

-Tutt

[ace1001]

There IS data for hotrodding a .45....lots of it. Much safer in a 92. Look for loads with slow powders to maximize the long barrel. My 250 gr bullets chrono at 1850...no leading. Ace

[AJMD429]

I am persuaded the hot-loading the Colt in longer barrel rifle makes the most sense... I mean, really, if one needs to hunt bigger critters than a hot 45LC will handle, he or she can always borrow a rifle.

...that's what .45-70's, .450 Marlins, and .444 Marlins are for...!

A "guide gun" really isn't that much more awkward than the .454 Puma, especially if you're willing to have a 24" barrel on the short action, so it looks like what you need is a Regular Puma or Winchester .45 Colt 'strong' gun for "+p" loads, and pick up a stock Guide Gun before you spend any big bucks on a project. Until I handled both, I didn't realize the .45-70's could be pretty darn 'handy' and boy are they powerful - with no 'pushing' limits...

[CowboyTutt]

There IS data for hotrodding a .45....lots of it.

There might still be some data on 45 Colt +P+ but in Colt cases, not 454 cases. As Steve reported, there is less case capacity with the Casull case when shortened than a 45 Colt case.

Much safer in a 92.

No, not true at all considering its a Rossi. I have a modified 454 Puma by Mic McPherson with a "stretched" action that allows COL to be extended by 1/10 of an inch. It allows me to use bullets not normally functional in the 92. I've done my share of experimenting with it. When you are already dealing with a cartridge that operates at high normal rifle pressures (60K PSI) there is not much room for error as the pressures can skyrocket very quickly. Considering the poor tolerances used in Rossi Puma's that I won't expound on here, I think this is not so good a choice unless you are content with 45 Colt +P loads as AJMD suggested or you own a copy of Quickload and know how to use it.

I agree that a Marlin would probably be the better way to go, but you could also rebarrel the Puma as I already suggested. It really depends how reckless you are willing to be. This is just my opinion however. Be your own dog!

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

Until I handled both, I didn't realize the .45-70's (Marlin's) could be pretty darn 'handy' and boy are they powerful - with no 'pushing' limits...

Doc, that sums it up nicely!

-Tutt

[ace1001]

My 250 gr bullets chrono at 1850fps if that is not enough, it is just about all .45 Colt can do. If you do the math it is a LOT of energy. Ace

[CowboyTutt]

Ace, that is a lot of energy for sure! Very capable. But a 454 Puma with factory Hornady 454 ammo and their 300 XTP mag does just under 2000 fps with the 20" barrel. I just don't want someone to break their gun. I've almost done it with my Puma, but it turned out to be a factory flaw from Rossi that was the culprit. Thinking you broke your prize rifle is the most gut-sinking feeling you can possibly imagine. I don't wish it on a fellow shooter and thats why I'm recommending being conservative about this. No offense meant.

-Tutt

[ace1001]

I'm just saying that load is as far as .45 Colt can go. Case is nearly full, longer bullet would reduce load, faster powder ruins cases and cuts bullets. Ace

[Griff]

If I understand correctly, EMF will be adding the .454 Rossi to their line-up now that LSI has gone to the Armi-Sport (Chiappi) version. It's still not listed in their new 2009 catalog (although their 1911 variant do)! Contact Nate Kiowa Jones of Steve's Gunz.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

If I understand correctly, EMF will be adding the .454 Rossi to their line-up now that LSI has gone to the Armi-Sport (Chiappi) version. It's still not listed in their new 2009 catalog (although their 1911 variant do)! Contact Nate Kiowa Jones of Steve's Gunz.

Griff,
All I know for sure is what Debbie told me when I ask her about EMF possible carrying the 454's. The only thing she would say is the folks at Taurus told EMF they could place orders for any of the Rossi 92 guns. I took that to mean, that if there is enough interest EMF will order the 454's.

[BobBill]

Yes, looks like I will be going for 24-inch bbl, per your advice.

Local dealer is offering me a below his cost deal on a Taurus Thunderbolt in 45 Colt. He got me going there. Not so sure, but worth considering , if price ok.

Still, I like the Puma history shown here and other places and per your advice I know it does handle +P loads and that makes a difference.

Stainless, Puma, 24-incher is looking good, right now.

(Will have to add ladder sight too, I suspect. May send to Steve to do that.)

Great is help, gents, appreciate it no end.

Will be able to shoot 100- and 200-yard gongs for beers, but be able to bust a doe or hog here and there (guess northern WI is having fits over hog poopulation tearing up woods near where I fish), and pass on the little rifle to my one gunner son, who already has my custom 30-06 to whack bigger whatever.

I prefer the gong and beer route nowadays.

Thanks. Now to the handloading of smokeless and BP for gong whacking.

[BobBill]

Well, as things go, no surprise...

I went to my FFL pal, who was out of town, to order Puma. Turns out he has a pair of Winchester 92s, carbine and rifle, in very good shape. ($1000 scoots the pair only though)

Wonder if these beauties will handle +P 45LCs?

I held off buying.

Could finding nothing on-line, save Chuck Hawks, who had one that could not shoot straight with heavy loads.

[Old Ironsights]

BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY BUY

Have I made myself clear?

[BobBill]

Am smiling...good one!

Ya think?

I am working on it.

[BobBill]

Oh boy!

I suffer from Al Zeimer's blanks. Fingers detached from brain.

A typo I made. Sorry!

It is a pair of 94s, not 92s. Rifle Carbine 45LC.

Duh! On me.

[Old Ironsights]

Oh boy!

I suffer from Al Zeimer's blanks. Fingers detached from brain.

A typo I made. Sorry!

It is a pair of 94s, not 92s. Rifle Carbine 45LC.

Duh! On me.

Oh. Bummer. Maybe one of the '94 guys will tell you to buy (buy buy buy etc)...

Not a bad price for the pair anyway if they are in good shape though.

[BobBill]

Wood is too pretty to take into woods. I forgot to check serial numbers.