VIRTUES OF THE 44 MAG...(UPDATED)

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:12 pm

I've always been interested in the 44 mag, but I've gotten mixed messages in reading about it. Some say it's a great deer load out to about 100 yards. Others say that, with heavy 300+ grain loads, it will cleanly take anything on the North American continent.

So, from those of you who have the experience, tell us what the 44 mag can and can't do.

Per O.S.O.K., what is it capable of from a Marlin 1894 platform?

Thanks,
bogie

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:26 pm

The .44 Mag is an excellent hunting cartridge. I have two Ruger Blackhawks - one a Hunter model and the other a 5 1/2" stainless super. They will both take Elk/Moose, etc. if shot placement is good and distance is not over 75 yards - basically where you can make a good shot. 300 grain hardcast bullets will penetrate completely.

You don't mention the launch vehicle - pistol or carbine? The carbine boosts the 44 Mag to the equivalent of the old 45-70 Express loads - lighter bullets at around 1400-1450 fps. And it can do the same as that load. The thing is that most carbines that I'm aware of have a slow twist barrel that isn't accurate with the 300 grain bullets... which is why my Marlin 94 is a 45 Colt. Which is most certainly a practical equivalent to the old 45-70 Express loads.

I'd personally only use the .44 Mag on brown bear for defense - all head shots. I'd have the pistol loaded with 300 grain hardcast bullets. I wouldn't use it to hunt BB. Any lesser game - yes.

IMHO

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:53 pm

I made lots of venison with a superblackhawk shooting cast 325g pb bullets. I made offhand shots past 50 yards and never lost an animal. the velocity was around 1100fps from a friend's gun.

Now I load a 405g cast beartooth bullet for my 5 1/2 inch redhawk. It departs the muzzle around 940fps and penetrates dry douglas fir over 13 inches with the grain, and around 9 inches across the grain. There is no animal on the continent that won't succumb to that load, including charging bears, steer, moose, and whatever else has nasty intentions. This is close to trapdoor 45/70 results at moderate pressures.

A young-eyed shooter had no problem consistently whacking the gong set out past 100 yards. I'm certain it has plenty of snoose to kill deer at that range, so that redhawk more or less OWNS the territory from the muzzle to 100 yards. I carry it in the bear woods 'cause they scare the spit out of me, and I know what they can do when they want to do it.

This load will not cycle in blackhawks because the cylinder is too short.

Just my experience. I look at all the whiz-bang guns running hand grenade pressures, and look at the results of my low pressure sub sonic load and lose interest in everything else out there.

Grizz

meanc · Post by **meanc** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:38 pm

When loaded light...it's as tame as a 357mag.

When loaded right...there's nothing it can't take in N. Amer.

And anyone that says it's only good for a 100yds has never shot one out of a levergun or they've never shot it past 100yds.

Out of my 1894 with a 240gr jsp over 20gr of 2400 (1740fps) I avg 1.5" at 100yds.

At 150yds, I avg 2.5" grps.

At 200yds, it'll still group about 5.5"

Now, my scoped 7.5" Ruger Redhawk with the same load will easily group 3" at 100yds and still have more than enough oomph at 125yds for deer.

So for deer sized animal and smaller, out of my levers or revolvers, the 44mag is definitely adequate out past 100yds

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:22 pm

I would have no reservations shooting a Deer at 200 yards with my Rossi 92 20" carbine or My Handi-Rifle in 44 Mag. My 240 gr. Jacketed round with a stout load of H110 is a power house. I tested it at my Brother's range in La Grande, Oregon this past June. The club has a 3' diameter steel gong that is 3" thick hanging in a tree 185 yards from the benches on the firing line. I can swing that gong with my 44 mag.. My .308 also swings the gong the same amount of distance. I can hit it every shot off hand.
I would also consider Elk in the 100 yard range.

There is POWER in the 44.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:59 pm

Oh MAN! You are asking about my most favorite caliber in the whole wide world! I may reload for about 60 different cartridges, but the .44 is what I am set up for in a BIIIG way.

I've taken 19 elk so far with the .44, mostly revolvers, but a few with rifles. Using 240 JSP's to 330gr cast. Even killed 2 calves I don't count in my 'count', with a .44 Flattop using a 224gr cast at 1000fps! Killed a nice bull elk last season just after he jumped out of his bed in heavy timber with a 240gr Remington JSP that I loaded up to about 1750fps out of my Marlin CB. At the shot, his nose hit the ground. Did I mention I like .44's?

2 years before that I took another one with a 250gr cast at about 1400fps out of a Marlin.

Since about 1980 I've taken a lot of deer nearly exclusively with the .44. From 180 JHP's to 300gr JHP's. From 215gr cast to 352gr cast. Out of revolvers mostly, but at least a few tons from Winchester and Marlin rifles.

I shoot .44's nearly every day. Where I live I can open the front door and shoot off the kitchen table if I want

So I know my load and sights. I've taken deer out to 200 yards, elk out to 150 yards. I DO NOT feel undergunned with a .44. But I don't live in Grizzly country, just hunt deer and elk, bear, cats, grouse and a lot of other small game with .44's.

What can I say about the .44 that expresses my feelings most about it? How about I carry a .44 revolver every day in the woods. I pack a .44 Marlin Cowboy on every hike I go on, which is about 150 long hikes per year on average. I use the caliber as my 'woods assault rifle', my house gun, my go-to hunting gun, my target gun and most of all, my most favortist meat gettin' gun!

It is MY gun.

44

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:28 pm

I am fortunate to get to see a huge variety of cartridges take a variety of game on our TX ranch, and some of our other trips we book. The things I see from clients with 44 mag, both handgun and rifle, that are negative is that they have unrealistic expectations for the cartridge, a poor bullet choice for the task, the inability or lack of experience to fire more than once quickly at the same animal and a lack of practice with the actual loads they will hunt with. Once in a while someone shows up who really knows their gun and the 44 Mag. An annual client from Las Angeles brings a 44 rifle and handgun each year. He shoots whatever he is after, which could be a 75 pound animal or a 700 pound animal with the 44's. He bring a few different loads to match the variety he may encounter or chose to pursue. He takes a few shots before we start hunting. I don't think he's really checking the guns point of impact as much as reassuring himself that he is mentally ready. He make me get him as close as he feels necessary and he picks good animal presentations when deciding to shoot. Just about everything he has shot in the past 8 years has died with one good shot. I can think of two times he shot something more than once - one shot was too high and far back. The animal was relocated 75 yards away standing in a thicket and the second shot brought it down. The other occassion was a medium sized aoudad ram. The shots were in the vitals, the bullets were penetrating adequately and expanding but the ram just refused to go down. Four well placed shots still led to a 100 yd tracking job. This is no reflection of the 44 but could happen with any caliber - animals are going to do whatever they are going to do and we can't control it. As for my personal use, I've taken a dozen whitetail deer and a dozen hogs with the 44 mag. About 1/2 the deer and hogs were shot with the Federal Hydrashok 240gr factory load. I shot out to 70 yards and as close as 5 yards. One of those deer required two shots, although it was incapacitated with the first double lung shot. None of the Hydrashoks achieved full penetation but all were found expanded fully and with good weight retention. I shot one deer and one hog with the Winchester Supreme load that was a 250gr bullet (the bullet was black - I can't think of the load though). The 250 winchester bullet exited the deer, a 185 lbs canadian whitetail hit at 35 yards. The remainder of the animals have been killed with the Grizzly Cartridge 275 grain loading. None of those bullets exited and every single one shed the jacket (they are Hawk bullets) while expanding. Nonetheless, each animal was killed with one shot to the H/L area. These are but a handful of experiences for you to consider. Most importantly, you must use common sense when chosing a hunting bullet/load, deciding what shots at game to take and carefully placing your shots. If you accept the cartridge for what it is and use it within those parameters you will not be disappointed.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:29 pm

44LVR wrote:Oh MAN! You are asking about my most favorite caliber in the whole wide world! I may reload for about 60 different cartridges, but the .44 is what I am set up for in a BIIIG way.

I've taken 19 elk so far with the .44, mostly revolvers, but a few with rifles. Using 240 JSP's to 330gr cast. Even killed 2 calves I don't count in my 'count', with a .44 Flattop using a 224gr cast at 1000fps! Killed a nice bull elk last season just after he jumped out of his bed in heavy timber with a 240gr Remington JSP that I loaded up to about 1750fps out of my Marlin CB. At the shot, his nose hit the ground. Did I mention I like .44's? 2 years before that I took another one with a 250gr cast at about 1400fps out of a Marlin.

Since about 1980 I've taken a lot of deer nearly exclusively with the .44. From 180 JHP's to 300gr JHP's. From 215gr cast to 352gr cast. Out of revolvers mostly, but at least a few tons from Winchester and Marlin rifles.

I shoot .44's nearly every day. Where I live I can open the front door and shoot of the kitchen table if I want So I know my load and sights. I've taken deer out to 200 yards, elk out to 150 yards. I DO NOT feel undergunned with a .44. But I don't live in Grizzly country, just hunt deer and elk, bear, cats, grouse and a lot of other small game with .44's.

What can I say about the .44 that expresses my feelings most about it? How about I carry a .44 revolver every day in the woods. I pack a .44 Marlin Cowboy on every hike I go on, which is about 150 long hikes per year on average. I use the caliber as my 'woods assault rifle', my house gun, my go-to hunt gun, my target gun and my most favortist meat gettin' gun!

It is MY gun.

44

Yeah but...how do you feel about the 44?

Thanks 44LVR for your great input!

bogie

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:34 pm

86er, I always enjoy reading for the benefit of your experience. You always make sense.

Gary · Post by **Gary** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 9:38 pm

If you like crunching numbers, put in some 44 mag data here:

http://www.handloads.com/calc/quick.asp

It looks like a good camp gun for stopping black bear.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 10:24 pm

Bogie35 wrote:Yeah but...how do you feel about the 44?:D

Welll, I LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT LOVE IT......well, you get the idea........

44

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:02 pm

Sounds like you have made a total avocation of using this one cartridge - what is it you do to be able to spend so much time afield? When I was a kid I spent some part of every day in the fields, woods or at some stream - then came sports and girls.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:05 pm

No bahrs here in the islands (my bear repelling charm I bought on eBay keeps them away), but my first centerfire rifle and still my favorite pig gun since 1976 is my 44 mag 1894 Marlin. My favorite load is a Speer 240 grain JSP on top of 24 grains of H110. My biggest pig with this gun was also my farthest shot. (300+ pound boar at 125 yards). I also have a Taurus model 44 stainless steel DA revolver with 6.5 barrel and this gun is very accurate though haven't shot game with it yet. I'm ordering a 44 mag barrel for my Handi-Rifle as soon as I can and lop it to 16.25" to make handier. I have been a fan of the 44 mag for many years and recommend it as a fine woods rifle, within it's limits it is a great deer and pig round.

mod71alaska · Post by **mod71alaska** » Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:37 pm

Grizz wrote: ....Now I load a 405g cast beartooth bullet for my 5 1/2 inch redhawk. It departs the muzzle around 940fps and penetrates dry douglas fir over 13 inches with the grain, and around 9 inches across the grain. There is no animal on the continent that won't succumb to that load, including charging bears, steer, moose, and whatever else has nasty intentions....

Grizz

From more than 25 years living and hunting on the Alaska Peninsula and in south central and interior Alaska (I know you lived and hunted in AK, too, Grizz) I respectfully disagree with you to this extent. I don't think the .44 Mag is at all suitable as a primary hunting cartridge for Alaska's biggest game. It definitely is not suitable for Brown Bear, and almost everywhere you hunt in Alaska there is the risk of a bear encounter. My own primary hunting cartridges were .338 WM with .250 gr. Nosler Partitions or .348 with 250 gr. Silvertips, neither of which a .44 Mag can begin to come close to in terms of over all effective killing or safe hunting. Will a 1000+ lbs 70 inch moose or a 1500 lb brown bear "succumb" to a .44 Mag. Certainly, with optimum conditions and a little luck. Is the .44 Mag the right choice to hunt these animals with? Unequivically, NO. That being said, the back up pistol I carried in the bush was a S&W Mnt. Gun in .44 Mag. As my good friend likes to say: Opinions are like elbows...everyone's got one. So there you have it...two different opinions.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:08 am

Old Savage wrote:Sounds like you have made a total avocation of using this one cartridge

While I have used many, the .44 has been my one and only love!

I have a couple hundred thousand rounds through the .44. And 30 years of experimenting with it.

what is it you do to be able to spend so much time afield?

I retired at a fairly young age. I've had lots of time, though never enough money!

When I was a kid I spent some part of every day in the fields, woods or at some stream - then came sports and girls.

Ah yes. In my case fortunately the girl problem only lasted about 3 or 4 years! That's left about 35 years so far to be roaming the forests of the Western US!

44

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:24 am

GANJIRO wrote:No bahrs here in the islands (my bear repelling charm I bought on eBay keeps them away), but my first centerfire rifle and still my favorite pig gun since 1976 is my 44 mag 1894 Marlin. My favorite load is a Speer 240 grain JSP on top of 24 grains of H110. My biggest pig with this gun was also my farthest shot. (300+ pound boar at 125 yards). I also have a Taurus model 44 stainless steel DA revolver with 6.5 barrel and this gun is very accurate though haven't shot game with it yet. I'm ordering a 44 mag barrel for my Handi-Rifle as soon as I can and lop it to 16.25" to make handier. I have been a fan of the 44 mag for many years and recommend it as a fine woods rifle, within it's limits it is a great deer and pig round.

You may want to rethink the lop of the handi-rifle 44 barrel. I have one and because of the short action the balance and weight is about right. It comes with a bull barrel. Quite a shooter indeed. When you send it to H & R for the barrel fitting. Request that they do an action job and trigger reduction. They will do this at no charge, but you must request this service in writing. My stock trigger was about a 6#-7# pull, came back a nice crisp 3#-4# pull. My Handi was a 44 only when I bought it. I sent it in for two additional barrel fittings. A .308 & a 12 ga. turkey barrel with 3 1/2" chamber & choke tubes.

The barrel accessory order form is on there web site as well as the barrel price's & fitting charges, etc.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:09 am

Lefty Dude wrote:
GANJIRO wrote:I'm ordering a 44 mag barrel for my Handi-Rifle as soon as I can and lop it to 16.25" to make handier.
You may want to rethink the lop of the handi-rifle 44 barrel. I have one and because of the short action the balance and weight is about right. It comes with a bull barrel. Quite a shooter indeed. When you send it to H & R for the barrel fitting. Request that they do an action job and trigger reduction. They will do this at no charge, but you must request this service in writing. My stock trigger was about a 6#-7# pull, came back a nice crisp 3#-4# pull. My Handi was a 44 only when I bought it. I sent it in for two additional barrel fittings. A .308 & a 12 ga. turkey barrel with 3 1/2" chamber & choke tubes.

The barrel accessory order form is on there web site as well as the barrel price's & fitting charges, etc.

I've had my stainless Handi-Rifle in .223 for several years and she's a tack driver. I polished the bore and chamber with Flitz and I was very fortunate in that she came with a smooth 2.5 lb. trigger pull so no work necessary, and I'm hoping they won't touch it when I send it in as I've heard horror stories of the H&R smiths screwing up a good trigger which they thought was too light.

As you may know these Handi-Rifles are built on a twelve gauge frame so the barrels have a OD of a twelve gauge so they are thick and heavy. I prefer my woods guns short, light, and quick pointing (like my 357 mag "Shorty"). Even with the barrel lopped she'll still weigh more than my Rossi with 23" barrel (now 16.25"). I won't lop it right away, probably after a range trip at least but for it's intended purpose this 44 barrel will be cut. I have to crawl thru pig tunnels and allot easier with a 16" barrel than a 22" and a 16" on a NEF frame is very short & handy indeed. I will keep my 24" 45/70 barrel full length for sure, different purpose. I also have 2 NEF Pardner shotguns a 12 and a 20 gauge which I love. On the 12 I slimmed down the butt and fore end to give it more English style lines with a straight grip, and splinter fore. I have grabbed this gun many times over my O/U Browning just because it's so fun to shoot. Hard to beat a Handi bang for the buck.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:34 am

mod71alaska wrote:
Grizz wrote: ....Now I load a 405g cast beartooth bullet for my 5 1/2 inch redhawk. It departs the muzzle around 940fps and penetrates dry douglas fir over 13 inches with the grain, and around 9 inches across the grain. There is no animal on the continent that won't succumb to that load, including charging bears, steer, moose, and whatever else has nasty intentions....

Grizz
From more than 25 years living and hunting on the Alaska Peninsula and in south central and interior Alaska (I know you lived and hunted in AK, too, Grizz) I respectfully disagree with you to this extent. I don't think the .44 Mag is at all suitable as a primary hunting cartridge for Alaska's biggest game. It definitely is not suitable for Brown Bear, and almost everywhere you hunt in Alaska there is the risk of a bear encounter. My own primary hunting cartridges were .338 WM with .250 gr. Nosler Partitions or .348 with 250 gr. Silvertips, neither of which a .44 Mag can begin to come close to in terms of over all effective killing or safe hunting. Will a 1000+ lbs 70 inch moose or a 1500 lb brown bear "succumb" to a .44 Mag. Certainly, with optimum conditions and a little luck. Is the .44 Mag the right choice to hunt these animals with? Unequivically, NO. That being said, the back up pistol I carried in the bush was a S&W Mnt. Gun in .44 Mag. As my good friend likes to say: Opinions are like elbows...everyone's got one. So there you have it...two different opinions.

Hmmm. OK I wasn't making the case that my 405g .44 load is my primary hunting gun, although I used a 325g .44 as the primary gun for lots of venison. It was often the only gun I carried in the woods.

I also carried a .338 WM and shot lots of deer with it, thinking it would be a good bear stopper. But I respectfully submit that the .338 bullets ARE NOT SUITABLE for point-blank-range bear encounters. And the .338 makes a real mess of meat if you happen to get a raking shot. My primary rifle now is my GS with a 525g bullet, but it's useless if a bear disarms me.

Based on my penetration testing I still recommend the 405g .44 as an ideal close in bear stopper for a reliable CNS shot. Try some subsonic 405g 45/70 loads for a reasonable comparison. Just out of curiosity if nothing else. I promise you will be very surprised if you do a side-by-side test with your favorite high power rifle loads.

Now, if the issue is taking game much past, say sixty yards, then it's time for the rifle, and the .338 has taken lots of game. Moose at 200 yards? No problem. Bear at 175 yards? Easy.

But if the bear is sitting on you, or about to, I still contend that the .338 is less suitable than my subsonic .44. First, I have six rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger. Second I have a load that is proven to penetrate like a 45/70, and third I have a bullet that is not frangible and will not self-destruct passing thru boney masses. None of which describes the .338.

But it's a good topic for the campfire and I make my arguments based on my own experiences. I used to feel 'nekkid' when hunting with my .44 blackhawk, and finding fresh bear kills sent me into the horrer film corners of my imagination. Plus I happen to know of a couple of cases where a brown bear charge was stopped with head shots from factory loaded .44 handguns. And I know the sub-sonic 405g load out performs any factory loading at point-blank range.

I hope you try some penetration tests. I know it's counter-intuitive, but it's amazing to see the results.

Regards,

Grizz

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:20 am

OK - lots of great replies on the carbine. My personal choice for a Marlin 44 would be 22 grains of H110 under a gaschecked 250 grain keith style hardcast bullet (linotype). That will go 1650 fps from the carbine (1511 ft lb.s fwiiw) and would be a deer killer out to whatever distance that you could place the round - say 300 yards if you have a scope or are that good with irons and have good light, know the distance and the exact trajectory, etc. and the rifle shoots accurately enough...... I'd personally stay within 200 yards as the bullet starts dropping too much for my taste after that. I'd zero the rifle for 150 yards for that scenario.

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 10:41 am

Excellent thread Guy's, keep them coming.

Oh, and have a good day Y'all.

44LVR · Post by **44LVR** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:24 am

O.S.O.K. wrote:OK - lots of great replies on the carbine. My personal choice for a Marlin 44 would be 22 grains of H110 under a gaschecked 250 grain keith style hardcast bullet (linotype). That will go 1650 fps from the carbine (1511 ft lb.s fwiiw) and would be a deer killer out to whatever distance that you could place the round - say 300 yards if you have a scope or are that good with irons and have good light, know the distance and the exact trajectory, etc. and the rifle shoots accurately enough...... I'd personally stay within 200 yards as the bullet starts dropping too much for my taste after that. I'd zero the rifle for 150 yards for that scenario.

I'm going to disagree here just a bit!

22grs is a fine load though I personally like 23.5grs of W296!

I'm not a linotype fan. The elk I killed this year is an example of why. My .38-55 with a bullet cast of straight WW's @ 1700+fps performed as perfectly as an expensive 'premium' jacketed bullet. 2 of the 3 shots exited as I would have expected. But the one that didn't exit his shoulder was expanded out to .70" and after starting out loaded at 280.5grs, the expanded bullet still weighed 240.5grs. Once linotype starts being added then the bullet becomes too brittle, though once a fellow goes over around 2100fps a bit of linotype added, OR a bit of heat treating is worthwhile. But then again, it becomes brittle.

300 yards with the .44 mag is too far for anything but killing out of control rocks

The trajectory is a looping one and really drops off quickly after 150 yards. I feel comfortable at 200 yards if conditions are perfect, but past that even with all the .44 shooting I do, I am a bit hesitant. I sight in all my .44 rifles 1" high at 100 yards. That allows for very precise placement from 25 yards to 125 yards and makes shots easy to 175 yards and 200 yard shots not uncommon.

All my .44 revolvers and T/C's are sighted in 2" high at 25 yards. Depending on the load, and my favorite from revolvers is a 250gr @ 1100fps, I am only around 2-4" low at 100 yards. That gives me confidence for shots out to 125 yards with no mental calculations needed to be done before the shot

44

Lefty Dude · Post by **Lefty Dude** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:11 pm

My 44 mag load with the Speer 240 gr. JSP is 22.5 gr. of H110, not the top load but a very accurate load that gets the job done.

I bought a 3 lb. keg of WW 296 from a shot gun shooter that loaded 410's. He sold his 410's and all the loading MEC machines. Not a bad deal for $10.00, hey ? I'll be shooting a lot of 296 for awhile.

He had tried to sell the keg for $25.00, and no takers. He ask if I wanted it for $10.00.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:56 pm

Grizz wrote:
mod71alaska wrote:
Grizz wrote: ....Now I load a 405g cast beartooth bullet for my 5 1/2 inch redhawk. It departs the muzzle around 940fps and penetrates dry douglas fir over 13 inches with the grain, and around 9 inches across the grain. There is no animal on the continent that won't succumb to that load, including charging bears, steer, moose, and whatever else has nasty intentions....

Grizz
From more than 25 years living and hunting on the Alaska Peninsula and in south central and interior Alaska (I know you lived and hunted in AK, too, Grizz) I respectfully disagree with you to this extent. I don't think the .44 Mag is at all suitable as a primary hunting cartridge for Alaska's biggest game. It definitely is not suitable for Brown Bear, and almost everywhere you hunt in Alaska there is the risk of a bear encounter. My own primary hunting cartridges were .338 WM with .250 gr. Nosler Partitions or .348 with 250 gr. Silvertips, neither of which a .44 Mag can begin to come close to in terms of over all effective killing or safe hunting. Will a 1000+ lbs 70 inch moose or a 1500 lb brown bear "succumb" to a .44 Mag. Certainly, with optimum conditions and a little luck. Is the .44 Mag the right choice to hunt these animals with? Unequivically, NO. That being said, the back up pistol I carried in the bush was a S&W Mnt. Gun in .44 Mag. As my good friend likes to say: Opinions are like elbows...everyone's got one. So there you have it...two different opinions.

Hmmm. OK I wasn't making the case that my 405g .44 load is my primary hunting gun, although I used a 325g .44 as the primary gun for lots of venison. It was often the only gun I carried in the woods.

I also carried a .338 WM and shot lots of deer with it, thinking it would be a good bear stopper. But I respectfully submit that the .338 bullets ARE NOT SUITABLE for point-blank-range bear encounters. And the .338 makes a real mess of meat if you happen to get a raking shot. My primary rifle now is my GS with a 525g bullet, but it's useless if a bear disarms me.

Based on my penetration testing I still recommend the 405g .44 as an ideal close in bear stopper for a reliable CNS shot. Try some subsonic 405g 45/70 loads for a reasonable comparison. Just out of curiosity if nothing else. I promise you will be very surprised if you do a side-by-side test with your favorite high power rifle loads.

Now, if the issue is taking game much past, say sixty yards, then it's time for the rifle, and the .338 has taken lots of game. Moose at 200 yards? No problem. Bear at 175 yards? Easy.

But if the bear is sitting on you, or about to, I still contend that the .338 is less suitable than my subsonic .44. First, I have six rounds as fast as I can pull the trigger. Second I have a load that is proven to penetrate like a 45/70, and third I have a bullet that is not frangible and will not self-destruct passing thru boney masses. None of which describes the .338.

But it's a good topic for the campfire and I make my arguments based on my own experiences. I used to feel 'nekkid' when hunting with my .44 blackhawk, and finding fresh bear kills sent me into the horrer film corners of my imagination. Plus I happen to know of a couple of cases where a brown bear charge was stopped with head shots from factory loaded .44 handguns. And I know the sub-sonic 405g load out performs any factory loading at point-blank range.

I hope you try some penetration tests. I know it's counter-intuitive, but it's amazing to see the results.

Regards,

Grizz

Thats why they make that other .44....called a .444

Then again, I've taken 13 whitetails, one Black Bear, and one Bull Elk along the Clark Fork up in the Bitterroots with a .44 Mag in a Winchester Trapper. All went neatly down with one shot except the Black Bear, first shot hit 'em in the head. It went down post haste, but after walk'n up on it twenty minutes later, it woke up and had to put a few more in him. Found out later the first hit shot him just in front of the left ear, cracked his skull but followed under the hide up and over the skull and came to rest near the neck on the right side of the head. That first shot was from 'bout forty yards. The Elk dropped in his tracks...'course he was barely seven yards away, almost fell on me! My ole' stand by load is Speer 240grain JSP's with 24.5 grains of H110 behind them.

Rod WMG · Post by **Rod WMG** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:18 pm

I don't hunt really big game...I actually am not able physically to hunt at all anymore, but the .44 mag covered a lot of ground for me in earlier times, from bear and lion hunting with a call and pretty hot loads to a mild 8.0 to 8.5 gr. of Unique and a 240-250 gr. SWC in various pistols, most notably a 6" 629 Smith.

My Marlin Big 5 carbine likes an everyday load of 21.5 gr. of IMR 4227 and a hard cast 240 Lead RNFP. With a Beartooth 250 gr. LBTGC and24 gr. of H-110 I felt very confident in its ability to take game.

Mannlicher · Post by **Mannlicher** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:31 pm

I have taken 9 deer now with my Marlin 1894S in .44 mag. My load is the Speer 270 grain Gold Dot SP, over H110 powder. I get a consistent 1575 FPS, and excellent accuracy. Clover leaf groups at 50 yards, and less than 1.5 inches at 100 yards. The furtherest distance I have killed a deer though, was under 75 yards.
In my old age, I need optics, and my 1894 wears a Leupold FX-II 2.5X scope. The companion Ruger is also in .44 Mag. The knife is my long time hunting buddy, a Randall #11.

Tennessee Hayre · Post by **Tennessee Hayre** » Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:11 pm

I don't think a large cal rifle will stop an animal like a grizzly on a charge unless you shoot him in the head or spine. So will a .44 mag stop a large animal like a moose or grizzly? I think that it all comes down to shot placement, and type of ammo. If Garrett's .44 mag hardcast (310 grain) can do what they say (Over 40"of pent) and you can hit your mark, my question would be" why would one say it's not good enough to stop a brown bear". It could be 20 foot tall at 2000lbs, as long as it can cut through the skull or take out the spine and you can hit your mark then I think it can. I hear lots of folks talk down the .44 mag but at the same time their are lots of folks in places like Alaska that carry one as well as a Colt .45 for protection. I think it is all in knowing your weapon, picking the right ammo, being sure of your self and hitting the mark. I read all the time of experienced hunters in Alaska taking a 223, 270 into bear country and having no problems with that but as soon as someone says .44 mag people roll their eyes. (I don't get it). I was reading a story that some of you all may have read on the net about two hunters that were attacked by a bear in alaska and one of the hunters could not get the holster strap undone and after getting knocked around a bit one hunter fired the .44 mag hand gun with it still in it's holster and with one shot in the head of the old bear he dropped it.

Poohgyrr · Post by **Poohgyrr** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 2:35 am

Old Time Hunter wrote: but after walk'n up on it twenty minutes later, it woke up and had to put a few more in him.

I bet that was a mite exciting...

JustaJeepGuy · Post by **JustaJeepGuy** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 3:14 am

Tennessee Hayre wrote:...one of the hunters could not get the holster strap undone and after getting knocked around a bit one hunter fired the .44 mag hand gun with it still in it's holster and with one shot in the head of the old bear he dropped it.

I'll bet this was exciting, too.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:10 pm

Thats why they make that other .44....called a .444

yup, that's what the bullet I'm shooting was designed for. but I don't think the slow twist rifling of the marlin rifles can stabilize it.

looking forward to eventually, someday, getting the B92 rebarreled so I can shoot the redhawk load from it. Marshall thinks it will feed just fine with little or no modification. sixteen inch barrel, I'm guessing 1250fps, pretty close to Blaine's BFR 45/70 shooting 405s.... amazing performance. I'm not sure about the twist rate of the B92 tho...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:18 pm

Why would 'rebarreling ' allow you to shoot your RedHawk loads better...?

If they are too long for the action, you can relieve the cartridge stop on the carrier a bit, until the bullet noses clear the front of the receiver and the breech end of the barrel....?!?

pricecw · Post by **pricecw** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 12:43 pm

I just got a recovered bullet back from a lion I got while elk hunting, went in the nose, out the skull, down through the neck, lodged in the backbone between the shoulder blades. The .44 was the finisher shot, but worked well. I have carried the Marlin and Winchester 44 Mags hunting, especially in forested areas, and have no reservations using it in elk or deer or black bear. I tend to put it away and pull out a scoped rifle (308 Marlin) in areas where the range opens up past 200 yds max.

LaserCast 240gr RNFP out of my revolver, 22gr H110
Base

Nose

Side

Anyway, excellent performance from the bullet.

Cat pic, just for fun

--Carl

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:05 pm

Why would 'rebarreling ' allow you to shoot your RedHawk loads better...?

because the original barrel was badly ringed and it's now sawn into pieces to disable it premanently.

'rebarreling' will allow me to shoot my redhawk loads because the chamber is in the barrel, I guess...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:40 am

Sorry, I must'a missed that part...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:48 am

Buck Elliott wrote:Sorry, I must'a missed that part...

No problemo Buck

it's a long story going back... still putting it off..... but it'll be a humdinger when it's done LOL

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