OT: .45 Colt Loads

[Aries]

I have a Uberti Cattleman in .45 Colt and was wondering if the Winchester Silvertip hollow point loads are necessary for self defense rounds or if any of the "Cowboy" loads will suffice?

[Ysabel Kid]

How dead is dead?

I wouldn't want to be hit by either. Both make big holes. The Silvertips should provide more initial shock and knock-down power, but if you place your shot right, either is going to result in the need for a body bag!

[jd45]

I've read about guys EVENTUALLY dieing from gunshot wounds but still being able to return fire before they died. Since we're talking about defensive ammo, I'd want to use a projectile designed to do as much damage as possible to STOP the other guy from continuing the fight as quickly as possible. For that reason, I'd choose some kind of hollow-point, such as the Silvertip you mentioned. Those cowboy loads are pretty anemic IMO.

[Sixgun]

In the grand ole' 45 Colt, I would feel mighty safe with that 250 grain bullet going a measly 700 fps for two legged predators. It will plow right on through a human torso. Remember, none wants to get shot, even with a .22.-------------Sixgun

[jd45]

See my post, jd45

[Duff L Bagg]

For defense I would use the Winchester silver tips. My objective in a defensive position is to stop the aggressor as fast as possible with me being the winner. Cowboy Action loads are meant to go ding on a steel plate, Silver tips are meant to eat meat. You pick witch one you want in a gun fight.

[O.S.O.K.]

I would suggest sticking with 200 grain hollowpoints for self defense -they will put em down with authority and are less likely to penetrate completely through the torso and hit somebody else - that you don't want to hit. The factory loads will be pushing 900 fps. This is especially the case if you live in a closely populated area.

A 250 grain lead bullet will sail right on through to the other side with plenty of damage. If you live in the country and have no worries about over penetration, then there's nothing wrong with the cast bullets - pretty much of any design, though the ones with a big flat nose will do a better job of creating shock. These will do a much better job on vehicles should that be a possibility.

A good choice are the keith semiwadcutters used for hunting. Loaded to standard power - like 7.0 grains of W231 for 850 fps. That's actually my old cowboy action load - I started before it became fashionable to shoot target sub-loads. It's accurate and clean shooting - relatively.

[J Miller]

For my defense loads I use the Win STHPs. I have two .45 Colts and two .357s loaded with them.


I do not claim them to be the best, I do however find them to be the most readily available when I want to buy more.
If I had my way I'd use the Keith bullet over 8.5grs of Unique. But, in my present location, in the tightly packed neighborhood, in this tiny frame house, I don't want to take the chance of a big chunk of lead going where it don't belong.
I don't like my neighbors one little bit, but I don't wanna shoot any of them by accident. On purpose, maybe. But that's a different story.

Out of a short barreled revolver the .45 Colt 225gr STHP won't make the claimed 900 fps. But they still work well.

[AJMD429]

Remember that if you are in the unfortunate situation where you have to shoot a human who is an obvious threat to your life or that of a family member (...or you wouldn't be shooting them, right...?) the imperative is to STOP them, INSTANTLY if possible. If their death is the result, so be it, and it usually has to be, but you don't want to endanger anyone else in the process. So, unlike a target or hunting bullet, you really want ALL the energy expended in the target, so I'd use a rapidly deforming bullet like a hollow point, or even a frangible. Consider that if you miss, you might want the bullet to not even do much after 1/2" of drywall. I'd also really avoid reloaded ammunition or any kind with a 'scary' name that might enable some crock attorney to paint you as a psycho vigilante.

[O.S.O.K.]

Joe has a good point about availability - probably non better than those Winny Silvertips... I think I've seen em at wally world.

And that's a great picture there Joe! What medium was that shot into? Clay?

[rjohns94]

nice replies Joe. Either silvertips or cowboy loads will do well. I carry cowboy loads and I do not feel underarmed.

[J Miller]

Joe has a good point about availability - probably non better than those Winny Silvertips... I think I've seen em at wally world.

And that's a great picture there Joe! What medium was that shot into? Clay?

O.S.O.K.
I think, but am not positive that it was shot into wet mine shaft tailings that had the consistency of thick jello. OR, thick mud. But I've had that fired bullet for over 20 years and I'm just not positive any more.

Joe

[jd45]

rjohns94, I don't comprehend your post........Silvertips or other hollow-points & cowboy loads are equall??? You WILL feel undergunned after that guy shoots back at you after being hit by your cowboy load. That's the whole point of this discussion, to stop the other guy from shooting back, & what will do a BETTER job of it. jd45

[336A]

I would much rather use the Win silvertips if that is all I could find for Self Defense type ammo. However the Speer 250gr Gold Dot would be my first choice. Here is a great write up on that loading for you.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums ... 8141028603

[O.S.O.K.]

rjohns94, I don't comprehend your post........Silvertips or other hollow-points & cowboy loads are equall??? You WILL feel undergunned after that guy shoots back at you after being hit by your cowboy load. That's the whole point of this discussion, to stop the other guy from shooting back, & what will do a BETTER job of it. jd45

Depends on what you call a "cowboy" load. If its standard presure 250 grain round, flat nosed hard cast bullet or the traditional lead round nose at 850 fps, then I beg to differ.

This is the load/bullet that Browning based his 45 ACP loading off of (or probably the Smith and Wesson version with 230 grain ball) - and we all know the reputation of that round for stopping.

The 45 Colt with hard cast bullet is just a litte MORE than the 45 ACP ball loading.

Now, you could argue that the hollowpoints may stop "better" but I don't think it really makes much difference as you have a .452" hole running completely through the perp with a lot of tissue damage and shock and two ways for the blood to squirt out.

Nice subject huh?

I'd feel extremely well armed with my Vaquero stoked with hard cast bullet loads.

Hollowpoint/expanding bullets are most effective with high velocity rounds such as the 357 Mag or even 9x19.

I recently saw a report (History channel I think) that compared the current 9x19 Nato round to the previous 45 ACP (stand-in for the older 45 Colt) and it basically showed how testing has shown the fmj 9mm does very little tissue damage and imparts little shock - just as you are trying to apply to the 45 Colt cast bullets. However, the older, slower, larger diamter 45 ACP fmj ball rounds have been shown to "pull" tissue as they travel through the target - imparting much much more damage and shock. This is the reason that it has been so effective.

[jd45]

O.S.O.K., I agree with you that a cast bullet load with a large meplat will achieve the desired result, namely to stop the fight quickly, IF pushed fast enough. jd45

[J Miller]

336A,
I'd love to try some of the factory loaded Speer 250gr GDHPs. Unfortunately nobody around here carries them. I haven't had the $$$.$$ to order some in.


To points I'd like to make about the STANDARD .45 Colt load that created the reputation it has.

A: The velocity ran any were from 800 to 900 fps depending on load, they were not all 40grs of BP, and the gun it was fired from.

B: The original conical nosed hollow based bullet was made from soft lead. No harder than 20-1 alloy.

It's my opinion that casting RNFP or conical bullets like the 454190 with a hard alloy is the wrong way to go about it. The harder the bullet slicker it's surface is. Just look at a factory .45 Colt bullet compared to a hard cast bullet. I'll bet any body here a box of ammo ( .45 Colt of course ) that all other things being equal, the softer bullet will do more damage than the harder one.

Joe

[jd45]

The original .45 Colt loads had a bullet that had a very small meplat. It appeared to be a copy of an artillery projectile I saw in a book about weapons of the Civil War. The effect of this small meplat design would've been to plow thru the target medium without causing much damage, which might make that design a poor one, manstopper-wise. I defer to anyone who might have knowledge & experience that will enlighten me on this, but the small meplat doesn't seem to me to be an effective design for a defensive cartridge. I welcome all opinions, jd45

[O.S.O.K.]

At higher velocities, yes you are entirely correct. The important factor here is the lower/modest velocity which apparently causes the bullet to hang-up on or grab tissue. I am just regurgitating information from the History channel show I was watching. I think though that this is corroborated by the Thompson/LeGrand testing. To Joe's point, they being historically cast of soft alloy, they most probably upset some on impact too.

A flat nosed, hard cast bullet is something to be reconned with though. Elmer Keith knew what he was talking about.

[J Miller]

The original .45 Colt loads had a bullet that had a very small meplat. It appeared to be a copy of an artillery projectile I saw in a book about weapons of the Civil War. The effect of this small meplat design would've been to plow thru the target medium without causing much damage, which might make that design a poor one, manstopper-wise. I defer to anyone who might have knowledge & experience that will enlighten me on this, but the small meplat doesn't seem to me to be an effective design for a defensive cartridge. I welcome all opinions, jd45

jd,
The original and current standard. 45 colt bullet as sold by Winchester and Remington is actually patterned after some of the cap and ball conical bullets. I can't tell you which ones really, but I have seen enough pictures of the conicals to put the two together.
Although the conical bullet does not have a large meplat it has been a proven man stopper since at least 1873. The act of "plowing thru the target medium" actually does cause quite a bit of damage. And if it passes through it will let a lot of air in, and a lot of blood out. No bullet, no matter how blunt or flat or how big of a hollow point is 100% perfect. Some have no reason to work, but they do.
That big conical .45 Colt bullet does work. But as it has been pointed out, it can pose an over penetration problem. That's why I choose to keep my defense guns loaded with the hollow points.

Joe

[JohndeFresno]

The original .45 Colt loads had a bullet that had a very small meplat. It appeared to be a copy of an artillery projectile I saw in a book about weapons of the Civil War. The effect of this small meplat design would've been to plow thru the target medium without causing much damage, which might make that design a poor one, manstopper-wise. I defer to anyone who might have knowledge & experience that will enlighten me on this, but the small meplat doesn't seem to me to be an effective design for a defensive cartridge. I welcome all opinions, jd45

Some of us might end up comparing apples and oranges. I believe that the "original" black powder .45 Colt loads, propelled at a modest speed, were also softer because they were pure lead or had a very high lead content than what many or most of us use today; and I would doubt that they were quenched in a way to make them harder. At higher speeds, of course, they would have leaded up the barrels. But if indeed these were slow moving, soft bullets, they would have expanded nicely on a man-sized target, methinks.

I'll leave the precise history to other more experienced in that sort of thing, but this is my impression at the moment.

Also, at least one of my reloading manuals (I don't recall off the top of my head) talks about Cowboy loads, and defines them as being "the minimum load necessary to shoot a target" with "the least amount of recoil," explaining that this increases the contestant's chances to win the match. If that is what you are calling a Cowboy load, I for one would definitely take the advice of those who prescribe something like the Winchester Silvertip - an old favorite, readily available as posted above.

I have an old aluminum frame 6-shot .38 snubbie that is NOT made to handle +P ammo (S&W Model 12-3 Airweight, probably a collectible in its own right). I have carried it for years as a backup gun loaded with the Silvertip, confident that I was well protected. A .45 Colt with that type of projectile inspires even more confidence, and I have little doubt that it would end the fight quite quickly, if used correctly.

[jd45]

OK Joe, I stand corrected, BUT those bullets remind me of the brazziers women wore in the 50's that made us men call them missile t*ts! jd45

[J Miller]

OK Joe, I stand corrected, BUT those bullets remind me of the brazziers women wore in the 50's that made us men call them missile t*ts! jd45

L L !!!! I remember those. They were still in vogue well into the 60s where I grew up in AZ.
Lord, they were strange looking. Thanks for the memories ................ missile t*ts .....

Joe

[jd45]

JohnDeFresno, your characterization of the BP .45 Colt loads as moving at "modest"velocities is partially right-on. The original load was 40grs w/250gr bullet for 910fps.....justifiably a "magnum" load. Later the charge was reduced to 35 & then
30grs, which could reasonably be called "modest". jd45

[JohndeFresno]

Thank you for the update, jd45. That would indeed be a healthy wallop with a big, soft slug.

[rjohns94]

in the articles on the home page of this site, Jim T and Paco give their views on the .45 carry loads. Just read them for the umpteenth time. Great reads and advice and loads.

[jd45]

Well, I guess I'll track down those articles & read em,..............thanx rjohns, jd45

[J Miller]

You guys got to remember the .45 Colt was first a military load. The original military load was 30grs Black powder under that 250gr Conical bullet. That was later reduced to 28grs BP with a 230gr conical bullet in the .45 Colt Govt round. The one that fits both the Colt and S&W.

Various commercial manufacturers loaded 40 and 35 and probably other charge weights as well under the 250-255gr bullets.

Joe

[jd45]

rjohns94, could you please tell me the title of the articles you're refering to? I looked under "Articles" on the home page, but couldn't find the ones you're talking about. Thanx, jd45

[mescalero1]

I grew up thinking they were all shaped like that, took me years to figure out it was the bra that made them look like that. like someone said, I'm a slow start. Probably why I'm still single, never got over that initial deception!

[jd45]

Hey Joe........are you sure the original factory .45 Colt projectile was patterned after the conicals for the percussion Colts such as the .44 caliber 1860 Army? I've seen pictures in books at the library, one of which is entitled, "Peacemaker", where an 1860 Army is displayed in the wooden box with the mould, powder flask, some round balls, & some conicals, and IIRC, the conicals had points, like the 50's brazzieres! No meplat, whatsoever. I was surprised to see this Civil War cannon projectile shaped exactly like the ..45 Colt bullet, except for the grease & crimp grooves. Not trying to start an arguement here, you understand, but like that National Enquirer commercial goes, "Enquiring People Want To Know". jd45

[J Miller]

Hey Joe........are you sure the original factory .45 Colt projectile was patterned after the conicals for the percussion Colts such as the .44 caliber 1860 Army? I've seen pictures in books at the library, one of which is entitled, "Peacemaker", where an 1860 Army is displayed in the wooden box with the mould, powder flask, some round balls, & some conicals, and IIRC, the conicals had points, like the 50's brazzieres! No meplat, whatsoever. I was surprised to see this Civil War cannon projectile shaped exactly like the ..45 Colt bullet, except for the grease & crimp grooves. Not trying to start an arguement here, you understand, but like that National Enquirer commercial goes, "Enquiring People Want To Know". jd45

jd,
Not sure enough to sign a contract. I have seen pictures of conical bullets with the little flat point, but as I said above I'm not totally sure where. I thought it was the Colt C&Bs and it might have been. There were more than one type of bullet back then I think.

Or it could have been a conical from a rifle mold. Am not sure, but I have seen the things.

Joe

[jd45]

I'm with you mescalero1.................disappointed MANY times after getting a picture in my mind of what they were SUPPOSED to look like, but DIDN'T when the ladies took off the bra's........I finally had to face reality & just be satisfied with what they've been given by their mothers or genetics or whatever. jd45

[mescalero1]

You can't always get what you want..............
But if you try, sometimes; you get what you need

[jd45]

LOVE those Rolling Stones!!!! jd45

[jd45]

P.S......my absolute all-time favorite is "Street Fightin' Man".....jd45

[mescalero1]

Sympathy for the Devil

[Nath]

How slow does a big fat bullet have to get before it will knock the wind out of ya?
A fist in the guts will knock the wind out of you but a dagger in the same hand won't !
Both are gonner stop ya, just differently.

Nath.

[JohndeFresno]

Actually, I'll go for the fight stopper being a big bullet!

I personally know a few folks who were sliced and stabbed in a fight who didn't know that they were cut up, and kept fighting; but I have never met nor heard of a person who did not at least slow down when hit with a .45!

[Ysabel Kid]

rjohns94, I don't comprehend your post........Silvertips or other hollow-points & cowboy loads are equall??? You WILL feel undergunned after that guy shoots back at you after being hit by your cowboy load. That's the whole point of this discussion, to stop the other guy from shooting back, & what will do a BETTER job of it. jd45

For many calibers I would whole-heartedly agree. I remember when I was taking my CCW class for the first time when I had just moved to NC - 1996 - and they showed a picture of a perp who had been shot about 20 times with duty-issue 9mm. Several of the wounds were mortal, but the guy was on enough drugs that he continued to shoot back until he was taken out of the picture by a 12-gauge at short range. (that will do the trick pretty much 100% of the time! )

That being said, for the .45 Colt, any mortal shot is going to end the fight PDQ if not immediately - including "cowboy loads". Slow, flat and fat hitting the right spot will often cause more damage than speedy, pointy and "thin". Sure, the hollow points will do more damage, and I imagine there would be a case or two where the same hit would produce an immediate stop for the hollow point that would "only" result in a fatal wound for the "cowboy load", but leave enough in the perp to allow him to shoot back. That would be the case with almost any round. But I'd feel confident that a well-placed shot with that cowboy load is going to end the fight right then and there with no return fire. I agree with Mike - I just don't feel "under-armed" when carrying a .45 Colt stoked with cowboy action loads.

[jd45]

With the mercy of God with us, I hope none of us ever have to find out, but may He give us the courage to do what's necessary in an extreme emergency to protect us & our loved ones, & stomp the evil bastard to death before he has a chance to do us harm! jd45

[Griff]

Folks seem to enjoy disparagin' "Cowboy" loads like they ain't capable of much...

I tried to imagine what the fine folks at Winchester ammo would say; and I did a little searchin':

Their .45 Colt "cowboy" ammo is loaded with a 250 grain lead bullet FRN (flat round nose), clockin' out a muzzle @ 750fps. Interestingly enough, their "standard" load pushes a 250 grain lead flat round nose bullet @ 750fps. But, hey, that "cowboy" ammo comes in a nice brown box with one color printing. Whereas that "standard" stuff comes in the red/white box... surely that'll impart something?

The 225 grain Silvertip HP clocks out a muzzle at around 920 fps. A pretty substantial increase with the lighter bullet and increased potential for expansion with the HP.

The Hornady "Cowboy" stuff flies out a muzzle @ 725fps; but hey, it's a 255 grain projectile.

Now I've been a cowboy action shooter for many years (22+), and for many of those I've used a variety of .452 bullets, both commercial and my own cast. Everything from a light 185gr WFN to 255gr Keith style bullets; including 200gr RN, 225gr RFN, 225gr TC, 230gr RN, and 250 RN designs. And I've loaded them everywhere on the speed scale from around 700 fps to over 900, depending on propellant and what my feelings were that day!

And, nowhere has anyone volunteered to stand in front of me and be a test subject to determine if those little 185gr bullets @ 700 fps were lethal.

[JohndeFresno]

Folks seem to enjoy disparagin' "Cowboy" loads like they ain't capable of much... nowhere has anyone volunteered to stand in front of me and be a test subject to determine if those little 185gr bullets @ 700 fps were lethal.

Cowards!

[jd45]

Griff, of course ANY kind of bullet wound is gonna be painful, but I think I have to bring us back again to the point of the original question, which was what type of load will be most likely to stop the other guy from being able to shoot back at you the quickest. No offense meant, but I don't think a 185 @ 700fps would fill the bill, do you? jd45

[Griff]

Griff, of course ANY kind of bullet wound is gonna be painful, but I think I have to bring us back again to the point of the original question, which was what type of load will be most likely to stop the other guy from being able to shoot back at you the quickest. No offense meant, but I don't think a 185 @ 700fps would fill the bill, do you? jd45

Yep! 3 quick ones in the solar plexus should be enough to stop a 2-legged varmit!

[AJMD429]

Their .45 Colt "cowboy" ammo is loaded with a 250 grain lead bullet FRN (flat round nose), clockin' out a muzzle @ 750fps. The Hornady "Cowboy" stuff flies out a muzzle @ 725fps; but hey, it's a 255 grain projectile.

Considering that a factory 'tactical, combat' load for .45 ACP lists a 230 grain bullet at 835 fps, it sounds like them "cowboy" loads are made for the local SWAT team and should be banned for general use as too powerful...!

[J Miller]

Winchester 255gr L and Remington 250gr L standard loads are actually listed at 860fps. A bit more than the cowboy stuff.

Joe

[jd45]

I'd like to submit these data, just for informational purposes. According to the formula for determining muzzle energy of a projectile, I calculated the following:
230@835FPS....356 ft lbs ME
250@750FPS....311 ft lbs ME
255@725FPS....297 ft lbs ME
BTW, the formula is projectile weight x velocity x velocity x .000002218
Based on this data, how is it that the "cowboy loads" are too powerful? jd45

[jd45]

I agree with you Joe, the standard .45 Colt loads are listed @ 860FPS,........wether they ACTUALLY CLOCK at that speed is another matter. However, the loads mentioned here are "cowboy" loads, of lower power. Thanx for your input, jd45

[J Miller]

255@860FPS....418 ft lbs ME
250@860FPS....410 ft lbs ME

Standard loads got 'em all beat.

Joe