THE 45-70 ROUNDS FOR DANGEROUS GAME

[oldebear1950]

Have any of you tried some of the dangerous game 45-70 rounds from Garrett, or Buffalo Bore or any of the other dangerous game rounds? I do realize they are not inexpensive, at almost 200 bucks for a bos of 20.
I have read they are safe in all modern lever guns, and the good single shots from Ruger, and the H & R/New England guns rated at SB2 .
I can remember when the RUGER AND MARLIN were the only game in town. Now we have the RUGER/MARLIN, RUGER #1s, #3s, HENRY, ROSSI R 95s, and the modern versions of the 1886s.

[jeepnik]

I have bought and used, for testing and sighting, both BB and Garrett. I generally use my own hard cast bullets but were I to venture where elephants roam, or the giant cave bear of legend, one of the 525 gr bullets would be my choice. One word of caution, and I don't care what rifle you use, those heavy bullets are going to kick your shoulder like you wouldn't believe. I recommend a PAST shoulder pad.

[oldebear1950]

I have a new Henry 8.1 lb rifle with 24 inch octagon barrel, and am in the process of acquiring a past shoulder pad.
Some of the 1886 rifles with 22,24, and 26 inch barrels are even heavier than my rifle is.

I would assume they would kick like crazy, but a heavy weight rifle would help.

There are a lot more rifles available than there were in the 1970s and 1980s.
1975
I remember when I was stationed in Alaska, from 1975 - 1978, and again from 1983 - 1986, The Marlin was the only really available lever gun around.
Now there is a selection. And If I wanted a round for brown bear, I had to load my own. At that time the only factory load I could get was the old 405 grain load from Remington.
Good bullets were available, from Barnes, Hornady, and a few others, but was a reloading proposition.

[oldebear1950]

I did run into two brown bears, when stationed on Kodiak, island. Fortunately I had the Marlin 1895, with heavy loads, and it was a comfort. Luckily I never had to use it.

[samsi]

I got a box of Buffalo Bore with a rifle some years back that I've never gotten around to trying. I have run a pile of the Keith/Mathews load though Marlin '95's in the past, but my standard 45-70 load these days is a 400 LFN over 31.5 of 5744. No big bears around here so I figure it'll suffice for anything I need to use it on.

I've got a PAST pad, oughta strap it on and try those out one day.

[wvfarrier]

I tried a box of Garrett Hammerheads from my Mauser conversion, goodness gracious they killed on both ends. Physically painful to shoot

[Grizz]

My DG load for Alaskan bears, the ones we lived with, is the BTB 525Gr Piledriver. I have downloaded it to around 1425 fps from my guide gun. It penetrates 12 one-gallon jugs of water. We shot it from Blaine's BFR. My daughter shoots it. Complete strangers have shot it.

My point is that with the pressure held down it is not a bear to shoot, but it will completely penetrate a bear thru the vitals from any angle. Without any pain in the shoulder.

I loaded up a 425Gr BTB to match the velocity of a Garrett 420 Gr round. And Yes, that one will have some noticeable recoil.

If you go to the old BTB forum the palaver about the heavy for caliber loads is fully documented. Including famous people stating that a 405 gr cast bullet out of a 44 mag tumbles and cannot be useful. It is not true.

I have a video of the 12 jugs getting assassinated, it's too much bandwidth to post from my email server I think, but I can try if you would like to see it. PM me an email address and I can give it a shot. Or I can take a screen shot with a phone.

grizz

[oldebear1950]

I wish I had bought some of them, when I first heard of them. It seems now they are gone as a company, I have heard of good results from their bullets, too bad they are gone. The web site is no more, and that usually means they are gone as a company.

[Grizz]

I wish I had bought some of them, when I first heard of them. It seems now they are gone as a company, I have heard of good results from their bullets, too bad they are gone. The web site is no more, and that usually means they are gone as a company.

I think that is correct. It might be someone has something close or same as that design, or there may be molds available by now. There should be.

The real difference might be duplicating the alloy. I used hard fir firewood to compare the bullets I had available. And I use a hammer test, a 2-pounder swung against the bullet sitting on concrete. Some bullets crumble. Marshall's will get some cracking if you are over enthusiastic, but I don't use my forging stroke for this, just a measured swing that I gradually increase. It's many thousands of pounds per sq. inch more than it would ever see going thru animal bones.

If you find alloy that won't deform in animals you might consider a 460 to 475 grain bullet. 475 is halfway between 425 and 525 and might be a sweet spot. The thing I watch for and load for is momentum. You get more momentum if you increase velocity, but that also increases recoil and the stress on the bullet. Tradeoffs. I didn't have a chrono when I loaded some Cast Performance 460s, but at the time I invested in the piledrivers.

hope you find what you're looking for

[oldebear1950]

Montana bullet company comes close and some of them are gas checked too

[Grizz]

Montana bullet company comes close and some of them are gas checked too

I think so. Check Matts Bullets, I got a sample of all his .50s the day before the shutdown, but I haven't loaded any yet. I would prefer to shoot plain base bullets at the velocities I use. I shot plain base bullets out of a SBH for 15 or more years. Still haven't cleaned it. It seems that when the velocity is in the right range the lead is right hardness, lead gets wiped on, wiped off, etc. I've never fussed with the lead in the SBH or the GS. Lazy I guess.

[jkbrea]

I hunt more and more now with my 45-70 because grizzlies and wolves are moving into the area I hunt more frequently. I used to use Hornady leverevolution with decent results on elk. I got a great deal on 6 boxes if Buffalo Bore (8c) which are 350 grain JFP that zip along at 2150fps. They will expand slightly but will penetrate very well. I called BB and they said it's a very versatile round for hunting as well as bear defense.

[oldebear1950]

when I was younger and still on active duty with the US COAST GUARD, I was stationed in Kodiak, Alaska 1975-1978 and again 1983-1986.
Most of the hard cast bullet companies were not available back then. So I loaded bullets from Hornady and Barnes as the only alternative. About the only factory load I could get back then
was the Remington 405 grain soft lead bullet, that was even safe to shoot in a trap door 45-70. Was a great deer round, but not so much when it came to brown bear protection

[Grizz]

when I was younger and still on active duty with the US COAST GUARD, I was stationed in Kodiak, Alaska 1975-1978 and again 1983-1986.
Most of the hard cast bullet companies were not available back then. So I loaded bullets from Hornady and Barnes as the only alternative. About the only factory load I could get back then
was the Remington 405 grain soft lead bullet, that was even safe to shoot in a trap door 45-70. Was a great deer round, but not so much when it came to brown bear protection

That 405, if it was made right, should be able penetrate clean thru a bear or moose or horse or cow from any direction thru the vitals. If it is soft then it wastes its momentum expanding instead of destroying bone and tissue all the way through. old old story, right?

[Paladin]

I have used the Grizzly on meat. The 420 Gr went through 4.5 feet of moose from the right front chest stopping in the right rear flank just under the skin. It punched through numerous bones from 127 yards from a Wild West Co-Pilot 18in.

Grizzly 420 Plus P.jpg

Brown Bear got some of the meat after we stopped cutting at 0415.

[oldebear1950]

are you in Alaska now, or in the past. I did enjoy my time up there, and if I could have gotten a job offer, I would have probably stayed and retired there. I still miss the salmon, halibut, dolly varden, deer, and even elk from Afognak island.

I was notified by a friend that the state of Alaska now permits bison hunts on Kodiak once a year, actually they issue about 6 tags a year.

[oldebear1950]

do you reload, or buy their factory rounds?

[Paladin]

are you in Alaska now, or in the past. I did enjoy my time up there, and if I could have gotten a job offer, I would have probably stayed and retired there. I still miss the salmon, halibut, dolly varden, deer, and even elk from Afognak island.

I was notified by a friend that the state of Alaska now permits bison hunts on Kodiak once a year, actually they issue about 6 tags a year.

I drive back and forth and as I get older the more time I spend at Drs offices in the lower 48. It was factory ammo and was very accurate out to 300 yards. They allow permits from the Delta Junction herd every year for bison. They destroy a lot of fences and farm crops.

[Grizz]

I have used the Grizzly on meat. The 420 Gr went through 4.5 feet of moose from the right front chest stopping in the right rear flank just under the skin. It punched through numerous bones from 127 yards from a Wild West Co-Pilot 18in.
Grizzly 420 Plus P.jpg

Brown Bear got some of the meat after we stopped cutting at 0415.

That's a lot of penetration! Do you know the MV of that load?

[TraderVic]

Interesting thread. I have, shoot and reload for a Marlin 1895 45/70. About 25 years ago I had Marlin's shop rebarrel my Guide Gun to a standard 22" barrel.
My question is about how heavy of a bullet will most 45/70 leverguns chamber ?

[Grizz]

Interesting thread. I have, shoot and reload for a Marlin 1895 45/70. About 25 years ago I had Marlin's shop rebarrel my Guide Gun to a standard 22" barrel.
My question is about how heavy of a bullet will most 45/70 leverguns chamber ?

I have 4 rifles and the Beartooth 525Gr functions in all of them. I shot it in two hand guns and other rifles. I believe that 600Gr bullets function in the guide gun.

if i were a lot braver I would cut my GS to 16.1 inches

grizz

[Paladin]

I have used the Grizzly on meat. The 420 Gr went through 4.5 feet of moose from the right front chest stopping in the right rear flank just under the skin. It punched through numerous bones from 127 yards from a Wild West Co-Pilot 18in.
Grizzly 420 Plus P.jpg

Brown Bear got some of the meat after we stopped cutting at 0415.

That's a lot of penetration! Do you know the MV of that load?

Sorry, I don't remember