Why isnt there more variety?

[wvfarrier]

With the rising popularity of pistol caliber leverguns why hasnt there been a similar rise in the variety of "gummy tip" projectiles? Hornady only makes 140s for 357...why no 125, 115 or even 158? The better ballistic coefficient seems like a no brainer for tubular mags. Heck, a 165 grain in 45 colt would be smoking!

[Ysabel Kid]

I agree 1000%

[Walt]

Because then the brass would be different lengths and we would complain about it.

[Sixgun]

Because there’s no advantage for a more costly ballistic tip bullet which won’t make a difference with its limited range….therefore, no demand…….that, it would increase the overall length which is problematic with leverguns.

[mickbr]

I dont know what real workd velocities are like but if you check the ballistic coefficient of the FTX bullets in 357 and 44 it aint that great. By that I mean for example the 158 XTP hollowpoint actually has much better BC than the 140FTX(.201 vs .169) and in 44 mag the 240XTP hollowpoint is much better than the 225 FTX. Again not sure if it matches real world but if their figures are right you are better off staying with the heavier hollowpoints.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Because then the brass would be different lengths and we would complain about it.

Walt is talking about me.

But the real reason is that the .45 Colt doesn’t need to be improved.

[marlinman93]

I think most owners have found that a good old proven flat point bullet shoots well, and kills well on game. Plus OAL to cycle through the action is never an issue with a flat point bullet.

[44shooter]

The gummy tips do have a substantially higher BC in smaller rifle calibers with the higher SD like 25 to 35 caliber. The handgun version or even the big rifle versions in 44 and 458 just do not bear this out. Plus, weights are limited because of length limitations, which introduces the need for different brass lengths. Basically putting a point on a stubby bullet in a slow cartridge makes little difference in aerodynamics. It’s like putting a nose on a wheelbarrow.

[6pt-sika]

I think most owners have found that a good old proven flat point bullet shoots well, and kills well on game. Plus OAL to cycle through the action is never an issue with a flat point bullet.

I tried the Leverevolution ammo in the 30-30 to 450 Marlin and all did well enough on paper and deer . But I’d buy a box or two at dealer cost sight in kill a deer and pitch the brass except for the 308 EX and 338 EX . Dead is dead i don’t think the deer complained about how they died . And I understand 105% what you’re saying I just wanted to be able to honestly say id had this or that result . Seems to me I had the rubber tipped stuff at one point for the 357 41 44 and 45 Colt . But it’s been awhile since I messed with that stuff .

[marlinman93]

I think most owners have found that a good old proven flat point bullet shoots well, and kills well on game. Plus OAL to cycle through the action is never an issue with a flat point bullet.

I tried the Leverevolution ammo in the 30-30 to 450 Marlin and all did well enough on paper and deer . But I’d buy a box or two at dealer cost sight in kill a deer and pitch the brass except for the 308 EX and 338 EX . Dead is dead i don’t think the deer complained about how they died . And I understand 105% what you’re saying I just wanted to be able to honestly say id had this or that result . Seems to me I had the rubber tipped stuff at one point for the 357 41 44 and 45 Colt . But it’s been awhile since I messed with that stuff .

Since I never buy factory ammo, and never load jacketed bullets except for modern high pressure bolt rifles I own, I've either cast flat points, or round nose bullets for my old rifles. I've taken deer out to 140 yds. using a flat point .38-55 bullet weighing 255 grains, and the deer was down with one shot. Taken a lot of deer with flat points in .45-70, .40-65, .40-60M, .38-40, and even a .32-40 Ballard and all dropped with one shot. Most around 80-120 yds.
I'm not against factory ammo or gummy tips either. Just saying I've never felt the need for either, or felt I was hindered by not using them.

[6pt-sika]

I think most owners have found that a good old proven flat point bullet shoots well, and kills well on game. Plus OAL to cycle through the action is never an issue with a flat point bullet.

I tried the Leverevolution ammo in the 30-30 to 450 Marlin and all did well enough on paper and deer . But I’d buy a box or two at dealer cost sight in kill a deer and pitch the brass except for the 308 EX and 338 EX . Dead is dead i don’t think the deer complained about how they died . And I understand 105% what you’re saying I just wanted to be able to honestly say id had this or that result . Seems to me I had the rubber tipped stuff at one point for the 357 41 44 and 45 Colt . But it’s been awhile since I messed with that stuff .

Since I never buy factory ammo, and never load jacketed bullets except for modern high pressure bolt rifles I own, I've either cast flat points, or round nose bullets for my old rifles. I've taken deer out to 140 yds. using a flat point .38-55 bullet weighing 255 grains, and the deer was down with one shot. Taken a lot of deer with flat points in .45-70, .40-65, .40-60M, .38-40, and even a .32-40 Ballard and all dropped with one shot. Most around 80-120 yds.
I'm not against factory ammo or gummy tips either. Just saying I've never felt the need for either, or felt I was hindered by not using them.

I certainly wouldn’t say there’s a need for the rubber tipped stuff , but I tried it just to be able to say I had . Now with that being said I use the same rubber tipped bullet Hornady loads on the 450 Bushmaster in a sabot for my muzzle loader . And that bullet in. Harvestor sabot pushed with H4198 in my Remington 700 Ultimate ML drives tacks so I’ll keep using them in that application .

[buckeyeshooter]

Because the gummie grenades are useless for anything but putting holes in paper. I have commented already on the fragmenting of the hornady bullet on game use.

[6pt-sika]

Because the gummie grenades are useless for anything but putting holes in paper. I have commented already on the fragmenting of the hornady bullet on game use.

Funny I’ve not had any issue with them on deer in the whole gamut of cartridges .

[wvfarrier]

I have not had any issues with gummy tips fragmenting any more than other pistol cal projectiles being pushed to rifle velocities. Heck, even xtps start to come apart when fired at rifle speeds

[Old No7]

And there it is...

...putting a point on a stubby bullet in a slow cartridge makes little difference in aerodynamics. It’s like putting a nose on a wheelbarrow.

BEST post of the week!

Old No7

[marlinman93]

My nephew had some of the gummy tipped sabot bullets Hornady makes for his .50 cal. CVA ML rifle that he asked me to help him get sighted in with last fall. Never seen them for a ML, but had seen advertisements of them. He had some 50 gr. pellets of Pyrodex, and I used two pellets, as I figured one wouldn't be enough. Got it sighted in at 100 yds. and it shot 1.25" groups with a scope on the rifle.
His son took his first deer with it over Thanksgiving last fall, and the Hornday gummies did a very good job of dropping the doe. So I was impressed with how well they expanded, and penetrated.

[Griff]

Because then the brass would be different lengths and we would complain about it.

Walt is talking about me.
But the real reason is that the .45 Colt doesn’t need to be improved.

And ME! The 45ACP doesn't need improved either... in my loading of 500+ rounds yesterday, I found 4 case in my brass container that had small primer pockets... the pretty much called a temporary halt on the press. Most of my brass is my own match returned brass, but... every once in a while someone else's finds it way into what the brass pickers return. Makes me glad I use a 500 instead of one of the auto cycling presses.

[buckeyeshooter]

Because the gummie grenades are useless for anything but putting holes in paper. I have commented already on the fragmenting of the hornady bullet on game use.

Funny I’ve not had any issue with them on deer in the whole gamut of cartridges .

I shot 8 deer with a 308 ME, I shot all deer on the point of shoulder broadside at distances between 35 yards and 120 yards. All bullets fragmented totally. I then had to spend hours finding each of them and putting them down properly. Normally, a shot and the deer drops there.
I was not bright enough and bought a case with my XLR 308 ME, then compounded the mistake by purchasing 30-30, 44 magnum, 35 remington and 45/70 before testing them. I now use the Barnes XFN in 150 grains in .308 ME and back to 1 shot, deer down on the spot.
I have now unloaded all the gummie grenade ammo at gunshows except for 6 boxes of the 308 ME which I am keeping for brass and putting holes in paper or varmits.

[Grizz]

With the rising popularity of pistol caliber leverguns why hasnt there been a similar rise in the variety of "gummy tip" projectiles? Hornady only makes 140s for 357...why no 125, 115 or even 158? The better ballistic coefficient seems like a no brainer for tubular mags. Heck, a 165 grain in 45 colt would be smoking!

Hey, that's what Shoe Goo is for. A careful drop in the hollow point oughta do it.

[LeverGunner]

Nose on a wheelbarrow pretty much says it.

I think that the people that actually use their leverguns know that it's mostly hype. Ballistics on paper doesn't necessarily translate into accuracy, longer range, or killing power on game. What it does translate into is sales of cartridges to new shooters.

For cartridges like 30-30, sure it will give you a longer range. But for the guns that 30-30 is chambered in, most of them aren't capable of utilizing the increased range. My Winchester 30-30 will print about 1.5" at 75 yards, but with iron sights I cannot effectively use it out to 300 yards. So guns are limited to Henrys or Marlins (probably some others I can't think of right off hand) that have scopes. Probably a lot of folks that have old Marlins don't want to stretch their gun/cartridge to the edge of usefulness, so really, the market is pretty small.

[6pt-sika]

Because the gummie grenades are useless for anything but putting holes in paper. I have commented already on the fragmenting of the hornady bullet on game use.

Funny I’ve not had any issue with them on deer in the whole gamut of cartridges .

I shot 8 deer with a 308 ME, I shot all deer on the point of shoulder broadside at distances between 35 yards and 120 yards. All bullets fragmented totally. I then had to spend hours finding each of them and putting them down properly. Normally, a shot and the deer drops there.
I was not bright enough and bought a case with my XLR 308 ME, then compounded the mistake by purchasing 30-30, 44 magnum, 35 remington and 45/70 before testing them. I now use the Barnes XFN in 150 grains in .308 ME and back to 1 shot, deer down on the spot.
I have now unloaded all the gummie grenade ammo at gunshows except for 6 boxes of the 308 ME which I am keeping for brass and putting holes in paper or varmits.

To each his own I on the other hand never had anything like that happen with either express round shooting factory . I even went so far as shooting several in the head and yeah the hole coming out the off side did look like an explosion occurred inside . To be honest you’re the only person I can remmember heard saying such .