360 Buckhammer

[AJMD429]

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Looking at a review of the cartridge in the most recent American Rifleman, it seems like it's better than the semi-auto equivalent 350 Legend, which is not a surprise since the lever action cartridges is a little bit larger.

It's probably even better than the 30-30 Winchester for whitetail hunting under 150 yards or so.
[/Heresy off]

However, given that it looks like it requires a long action 'rifle' type lever action versus a short action 'pistol' type, the main advantage seems to be the legal one in states requiring straight wall cartridges for hunting ( which is basically a somewhat lazy way of trying to make low ballistic coefficient bullets be used which are arguably safer in densely populated areas).

Otherwise, just using the tried and true 35 Remington would make sense. The other existing straight wall cartridge in 35 caliber would be 357 Maximum, which is just barely too long for a short action but isn't large enough to take full advantage of the powder capacity of a rifle-cartridge length action lever gun.

I guess I can't help but think a 375 Winchester, or 38-55, would be a straight wall cartridge that would be even better, but then alas it falls afoul of the maximum length restrictions many states have for their straight wall cartridges.

So after all that, I come full circle back to not finding a reason to use anything other than 44 Magnum out of a short action lever gun when it comes to deer hunting. (...certainly 45 Colt would be just fine as well...). 44 Magnum satisfies the straight wall and maximum length and minimum caliber laws in just about every state, and sighted in at 100 yards is going to give you a decent point blank service out to 150 yards.

A Ruger 96/44 has a 1:20 twist rate which theoretically can stabilize heavier bullets if that's the goal, but more practically has a detachable magazine so those of us hunting where we might cross roads frequently can remain in compliance, plus it's easier to unload quickly and safely coming into a warm house with foggy glasses during a cold weather hunt. There's also the option of an all stainless and synthetic Ruger 77/44 for hunting in terrible weather, so one doesn't have to worry about all the water getting under the forend would like in a traditional lever gun. And of course there is the traditional option of a Marlin 1894.

[GunnyMack]

The 360 has more oomph than the 350 'legend ' ( I see nothing legendary about a 3-4" group rifle) , the old tried and true thudy-thudy and the 360 are a better choice for sure.
However I'm a 41 fan, pretty much the same bullet weights as 44 but a tad flatter shooting. My Henry shoots maybe 4" low at 100, need to stretch it out to 125,150, 175 just for kicks!
No it's not a pistol sized carbine but if I want light & handy I'll grab my Ruger 44 carbine.
Sadly I'm in a muzzle loader/ shotgun state so it's a moot point for me but I'm ready to hunt straight wall states- only thing I need is an invitation !

[Walt]

Gunny, how's the load development for your Blackhawk .41 mag coming along?

[Bill in Oregon]

I am repeating meinzelf, but a High-wall set up for Schuetzen in .360, BP loads under a long paper-patched bullet, would make this caballero "greatly pleased" as dear old Ned Roberts used to say.

[Grizz]

410 is pretty close to 41, yeah? And it's a shotgun too! Do you think you could come up with a viable slug load for deer hunting? Has anyone done this? Seems like a possibility. IDK
grizz

[samsi]

I am repeating meinzelf, but a High-wall set up for Schuetzen in .360, BP loads under a long paper-patched bullet, would make this caballero "greatly pleased" as dear old Ned Roberts used to say.

I'll second the High Wall idea, though I'm considering a barrel for a little used Encore I already have. Wouldn't be as classy but it would get the job done.

The idea of the .360 being shorter than the trienta-trienta would be disagreeable to me running it in a 336 or 94. Since it's unlikely that anyone will make an intermediate length action for the 360, I believe it'll be a single shot for me if I end up playing around with this number.

[GunnyMack]

Walt, on the back burner for the time being... been way too hot for load development!

Grizz, Ballistic Products has their Thug Slug and load data that is darn close to what a 41 Remington mag is doing from my Henry ! However from my CZ sxs they aren't real accurate!

[Grizz]

Walt, on the back burner for the time being... been way too hot for load development!

Grizz, Ballistic Products has their Thug Slug and load data that is darn close to what a 41 Remington mag is doing from my Henry ! However from my CZ sxs they aren't real accurate!

makes me wish I had a 410 upper for my H&R receiver . . . but Hey! I have a 20Ga upper all spruced up with truck bed liner . . .
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Screenshot 2023-07-31 074900_The Twenty.png

could be a good stalking gun . . .

[GunnyMack]

Grizz, there has to be a 410 barrel out there, just gotta look for it.

The Ballistic Products thug slug is an attached wad arrangement, weighs 8grams or 125 grains including the wad.
410, 3" hull, 12.0 Unique does 1700 fps
They also have a light game slug, just an overly long wad and a .380 round ball, 3" hull with 28 grains of lilgun makes 2400 fps!

I've loaded some of the thug slugs but not messed with the light game slugs yet!

[COSteve]

The whole argument for suing a .44 Mag or .45 Colt for deer hunting is interesting, however, in my opinion it's pretty much an eastern half of the US argument. Out west we have longer range shots and mostly larger deer so many states have enacted rules against small calibers plus minimum muzzle energy requirements at 100 yds or farther.

For example, in Colorado the rules state you must have at least a .24 cal bullet and a muzzle energy at 100 yds of at least 1,000 ft/lbs. Even Buffalo Bore's 158grn .357 Mag Heavy cranking at 2,153 fps falls well short for ME at 100 yds and their both their Heavy .44 Mag and .45 Colt Deer Grenade loads are even farther away. The same goes for Doubletap's heavy .357 Mag, .44 Mag and .45 Colt loads.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Did the Colorado Fish and Game actually write "... a muzzle energy at 100 yds ..."?

[GunnyMack]

I remember the .24 minimum caliber, energy I do not but one of the guys at school had a single shot 50BMG and asked a game warden about using it for elk hunting. The warden kept spouting about minimum caliber but never said a thing about using a 50 cal.

[AJMD429]

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I picked up a little Handi-rifle breakopen rifle back when they made them in 500 Smith & Wesson and that little breakopen gun was really nice. I’m guessing it was ballistically closer to a 20 gauge than a 12 gauge slug, but way more accurate.

[COSteve]

Did the Colorado Fish and Game actually write "... a muzzle energy at 100 yds ..."?

Yes. Here is an extract from the 2023 Colorado Big Game Regulation Brochure:

"2023 Colorado Big Game Hunting Laws
* Legal methods of take ………………………………..14
1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be a minimum of .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have a minimum 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, the capacity of both the magazine and chamber combined
cannot exceed 6 rounds.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh a minimum of 70 grains for deer,
pronghorn and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact
energy (at 100 yards) of 1,000 ft.-pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small-game mammals or furbearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk
seasons west of I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season.
A small-game, furbearer or unfilled big-game license is required.
NOTE: SMART RIFLES are prohibited, including any firearm equipped with a
target tracking system, electronically controlled, assisted or computer-
linked trigger or a ballistics computer. Any firearm equipped with a scope
containing a computer processor is considered to be a smart rifle.
NOTE: FULLY AUTOMATIC RIFLES are prohibited."

[COSteve]

As I said, we have large mule deer (I have 4 in my back yard right now down for what looks like the night) and large elk and moose that are usually taken at longer range due to the topography of the hunting areas in the state. So, a higher energy, larger caliber round is considered the humane way to take game.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Oh, I see it ... "impact energy". Not muzzle energy ... which, of course, occurs at the muzzle.

[COSteve]

I asked a friend who worked at the state what about reloaded ammo as the person who makes it is the 'manufacturer'. He laughed and said that they'd had multiple arguments about that as the original writes assumed that reloaded ammo was a copy of commercial ammo just to save money.

Anyway, they finally agreed that the 1,000 ft/lbs impact energy at 100 yds must be demonstrated by chrono readings fed into a reliable ballistic calculator. However, I said that many who reload don't use a chrono and he said that they knew that but if it became an issue, the shooter would be on the hook to demonstrate that his ammo was compliant.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I asked a friend who worked at the state what about reloaded ammo as the person who makes it is the 'manufacturer'. He laughed and said that they'd had multiple arguments about that as the original writes assumed that reloaded ammo was a copy of commercial ammo just to save money.

Anyway, they finally agreed that the 1,000 ft/lbs impact energy at 100 yds must be demonstrated by chrono readings fed into a reliable ballistic calculator. However, I said that many who reload don't use a chrono and he said that they knew that but if it became an issue, the shooter would be on the hook to demonstrate that his ammo was compliant.

I would think that the state would be on the hook to show that is it not compliant. But that's my older brain still thinking we have that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing going on here.

[COSteve]

I think it's more the logic of the original wording, "as rated by manufacturer." that they are hanging on. If you're the 'manufacturer' they figure it's up to you to go to the trouble to demonstrate it. Besides, why would a government organization make work for itself? They're 'here to help' . . . you do the work for them.

[marlinman93]

In my opinion both of these cartridges are an answer to a problem that was easily already solved by current cartridges, or hunting regs changes. A number of states have revised the stupid restrictions, allowing more cartridge choices that are met by existing cartridges. And those others that still have archaic regulations can be met with what we have already.
IMHO these two cartridges are mainly just to sell more guns, or ammo in yet another cartridge that wasn't needed.

[crs]

What Marlnman said +1.