94AE ejector, yet again

[Miles]

Howdy, I just bought a 94AE 45 Colt, and like so many others, have ejector problems. When I bought the gun I put three dummy rounds into it, 250 grain bullets, they ejected just fine. Monday I went to the range, none of the spent casings would eject, they all extracted but none ejected. I took it apart again yesterday and everything looks OK. Upon reassembly I put the three dummy rounds in and they ejected as they should. That's a head scratcher! I then put a tumble cleaned spent case into the chamber and cycled, it didn't eject. I put a new, Winchester, case into the chamber and it ejected just fine. I put another in and cycled the lever as slowly as I could, the case ejected two feet over to my work bench. I re-cycled those two cases four or five times then they no longer ejected. Almost makes me think it's the brass, maybe too soft? I did notice the extractor marred the underside of the rim somewhat.

I've read dozens of post concerning this problem but have yet to see the poster's solution, a lot of guys posting the problem but don't know if and how they fixed it.

Side rails tight, extractor grabs the rim and extracts as should, spring seems strong enough, ejector not bent, same result fast or slow cycling.

If someone has had this problem and fixed it, I'd sure like to know what the solution was.

Thanks.
Miles.

[ollogger]

Hi & Welcome!!

Sorry cant help ya, i have had my share of head bangers when it comes to guns also



ollogger

[Nath]

Can you measure the rims of the good and bad cases? Diameter, rim thickness etcetera.
Get a magnifying glass and check the forward rim edge is not beveled.

[Miles]

Howdy, thank's for the welcome.

The brass is Winchester, fired, dummy rounds and new all from the same bag. I've not used Winchester brass before. I usually use Peterson brass for my precision rifle and Starline for the 45-70, 38-40, 44, etc.
Measured 10 spent, 10 new and the three dummys.
Diameter: 0.5095" - 0.5105"
Groove: 0.4600"
Thickness: 0.0555" Thickness is not an accurate measurement but average. The rim being so small in diameter with the rear outside edge slightly rounded I cannot get the calipers deep enough on the rim to get a true measurement.
Used a 10 power glass, the rim is straight walled, not bevel.

Al

[Nath]

Weired stuff. Think we are going to need the twilight zone folks in on this!

[Griff]

When you say, "...doesn't eject", what does the brass do? spin backwards/sideways on the rails? ...fall back on the lifter?

[Nath]

Is it an ejector problem or actually an extractor problem! I remember having a sticky ae extractor one time.

[Miles]

The extractor grabs the case and pulls it back, then the ejector pushes the case out of the extractors grip but not enough to eject it from the action, I have to tip the rifle to dump the case that is lying on the rails or carrier.

I'll try to post a couple shots of the extractor pulling the case.

extractor3.jpg

extractor 2.jpg

extractor.jpg

Sorry about the quality, my camera wouldn't take a clear shot so I used my borescope. holding the scope in place, looking at the screen and hitting the shutter all at the same time was a bit tricky.

I found a extractor and ejector spring online, but they won't ship out of the lower 48, so I'm kinda hooped if indeed it is either of those parts.
A gun dealer/smith here wants $250+ to find and import those two parts. I'll just tip the rifle rather than pay that.

[Nath]

Looking at the pictures I would say the extractor is the wrong shape! Are they cartridge specific and your rifle has the wrong one fitted?

[Miles]

I searched some previous posts and found a pic of the ejector in a Colt 45 open action, looks the same as mine.

Yes cartridge specific, not all have the same extractor. I'm guessing the handgun cartridges, especially the 45 Colt have small rims compared to the case diameter, so just the corner of the extractor grabs the rim.

[Miles]

I'd buy a new ejector spring and extractor if I could get them shipped, but no luck.
I'm wondering if it is something besides those parts, something I can do to fix it with tools not parts. If I knew someone with the same gun nearby I'd borrow his her bolt just to test. I'll ask around at the range.

[Nath]

And there is no crud behind the extractor limiting it's travel?

[Miles]

No I took it apart and cleaned it up. Free to full-travel.

[Nath]

Maybe it's lost it's strength?!

[J Miller]

I have an 1985 vintage 94AE in .45 Colt. In well over 3,ooo rounds ( haven't fired it in nearly 10 years), there was never a failure to extract or eject ANY kind of .45 Colt case Unless I short stroked the lever.

I would pull the bolt out, and make positive sure the ejector is straight in it's slots in the bottom of the bolt, and that there are no burrs on any of the parts related to the ejector.

Pic: 1 Bolt face showing extractor and ejector.
Pic: 2 Bolt showing ejector from bottom.
Pic: 3 Bolt showing ejector from tight side.

Hope this helps a bit.

Joe

[Miles]

Well OK, I'll pull the bolt yet again. Looked OK last time, I'll take pics like the ones J Miller's above to compare.
I'll try to measure the pounds force the ejector spring has.

Funny thing, the case I had in the gun when I took the pics I posted earlier didn't eject from the Rifle when I was at the range.
I moved the lever slowly ahead and the case ejected 8" above and to the right of the action.

OH yeah, I was remiss. Thank you all for your posts and suggestions.

Obvious to me the easiest thing would be to put in a new extractor and ejector spring to see if that makes a difference.
I'll keep trying to find one of each.

[Miles]

I have a theory I want to run past anyone caring to read.

The unfired dummy rounds and unfired cases ejected well, for the most part. I just put 20 of the fired cases into the chamber and cycled the action, they all ejected well, the faster I cycled the further they flew. But the cases didn't eject out of the rifle after loading, firing the round, and cycling. I just put in the three dummy rounds, they ejected about three times farther than the spend cases did, even if I cycled as slowly as I could. As soon as the tip of the RNFP 250gr cast lead bullet cleared the chamber mouth, they flew out.

The rounds were made from new cases. New cases are usually made at the smallest limit, or below, the SAAMI specs. Rifle manufacturers usually spec the chambers at or larger than SAAMI specs. That way everyone's ammo will fit into every chamber, for that cartridge, usually with too much room until the cases are fire formed to the chamber. My new cases are 0.4745" in diameter, the fired brass is 0.4825" - 0.4830" about 1/4" above the rim. They fire formed an additional 0.0085", they still slide easily into the chamber, a lot of room in there.

So, theory is:
Perhaps the case has a lot of room to move around in the chamber, no I have not made a casting, and upon the shock of firing the round the case moves a bit causing the extractor, which is well used, to loose some of the purchase on the rim. As the case is being withdrawn from the chamber the ejector pushes on the case to eject it, but the case slips out of the grip of the extractor. Without the extractors grip on the rim, the loss of the extractor for the case to to pivot on, the ejector doesn't eject the case, just pushes it a bit sideways where it falls into the action.

Sound like a bunch of BS?

I still have 57 new rounds to fire before I reload, maybe the once fired rounds will cycle and eject better than the new ones did.

I found this site while searching for a possible cause for the poor ejection. Dozens and dozens of hits for 94AE ejection problems, but still have yet to find a post where someone had a problem and then solved it. One post was on this forum from almost 10 years ago, same caliber, same problem I have but never told whether he solved it or not. Also dozens and dozens of posts like J. Miller's, guys with the same rifle, same cartridge but flawless operation. This rifle was owned by a cowboy action shooting sport member, maybe it's just worn out.

Al

[Miles]

OK I took it apart and got some pics of the bolt similar to J Miller's.

74AE bolt 019.jpg

74AE bolt 014.jpg

74AE bolt 013.jpg

74AE bolt 004.jpg

[Tycer]

I would knock that roll pin out and check the ejector for wear spots and polish it

[Nath]

The fact it does eject some cases and well, means the issue is not ( I think) the ejector.
The ejector and extractor work as a team. My money is on the extractor letting the team down.

My memory is poor but I do remember an issue I had with one of my 30 30 ae's and it was the extractor but I can not remember the specifics.....

[PriseDeFer]

Replace the extractor.

[Miles]

That's the hard part, getting an extractor in Canada.
Working on getting an extractor and ejector spring. If/when I get one of each I'll let you know if it fixed the problem.

Thanks again for the replies and suggestions.

[Miles]

I got someone to order an extractor for me and have it shipped to a shipping depot in Montana. I was going to get the shipping company to mail it to me but they will not send anything connected with firearms across the border. Now the extractor is stuck in Montana until I can get there or get a friend to pick it up for me. The BATFE policies and the export license guys make it hard to get parts up here.
It'll be a while before I get an extractor and give an update if that solved the problem.

[flightsimmer]

Just curious, does the parts catalog list more than one part number for the extractor? That is, different extractors for different calibers.

To me, it looks like the extractor claw is made at the wrong angle, it should be perpendicular to the case, not turned so that only the edge catches the case.

[flightsimmer]

It looks to me like the factory installed an extractor intended for the side eject model not the angle eject.

[Miles]

Yes there are different numbers for different extractors, but one number covers quite a few different calibers, not all but a few.
All AE except 357 Mag, 357 Mag, and top eject. Three different extractors.

The way the extractor fits the groove in the bolt it can only grab the case with the corner or the extractor claw, It would have to be twisted at the end, or machined at an angle to grasp the case with the whole width of the claw, The extractor is not on the centerline of the bolt like most bolt actions, but near the top in a horizontal plane. It can only grasp the case with the corner of the claw.

I didn't think Winchester made a side eject, although the angle eject is sometimes referred to as 'side eject'.

[flightsimmer]

Well, I think that's where the problem is, it's not getting a good hook on the case. Maybe need to contact a local gunsmith and see what he thinks. Perhaps contact Winchester also.

[Miles]

Well if you look at J Miller's pics, the extractor and ejector are the same as mine. He/she has fired many, many rounds wit no problems. I don't think the extractor
design and position is the problem. I tend to think the extractor is just worn to the point it's not functioning correctly any longer. When/if I ever get another, we'll know if that is the case.

Thank you for your replies.

[Tycer]

I did have a 357 AE that I had to square up the claw on the extractor. Couple of touches with a fine file.

[Miles]

I tried to file the underside of the claw, it did help a bit.
While trying to solve my left POI problem I think I have solved this one. The barrel isn't indexed exactly, so the extractor isn't entering the recess in the barrel and as such is not getting a full grip on the rim. I finally had a friend go to Montana and pick up the new extractor, but I'll wait until I see about turning the barrel in before I install the new extractor.