Winchester model 1894 early saddle ring No Serial

[Smokin1973]

Hi Guys I have a early Winchester model 1894 this shows the possibility of being a turn of the century gun how ever there is no serial number any were on the rifle. I have heard alot of people say it is not possible but here it is. Any help on year and value would be great

[Scott Tschirhart]

The serial number would on the underside of the reciever just behind the handguard. Your photo looks like there is a groove across that area, but I cannot really tell because when I blow it up, it is grainy.

[OldWin]

Yup. Need a close picture of the bottom of the frame between the forend and the lower link.
The early guns were stamped with a slightly different font and are usually stamped lighter than later guns. That being said, it is usually evident if it has been removed.

[Malamute]

I recall reading a notice somewhere that Winchester was not going to work on guns that had the serial numbers removed, as was the habit of some discount houses to hide where the guns were coming from that they sold cheaper than the factory approved sellers. I think Sears was one of the discount outfits in question at that time, (very early 1900s?) So, it may not be nefarious at all, but still unfortunate.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I recall reading a notice somewhere that Winchester was not going to work on guns that had the serial numbers removed, as was the habit of some discount houses to hide where the guns were coming from that they sold cheaper than the factory approved sellers. I think Sears was one of the discount outfits in question at that time, (very early 1900s?) So, it may not be nefarious at all, but still unfortunate.

I read something like that about 92s sold by Sears. Might want to look under the stock on the lower tang as I have seen serial numbers stamped there on some older guns.

[Sixgun]

Looks to me that it was ground out unprofessionally indicating someone wanted to hide its identity.----00

[FLINT]

Yup. Need a close picture of the bottom of the frame between the forend and the lower link.

yes

[PriseDeFer]

"Any help on year and value would be great."

Maybe not so great. Serial removed, value zero.

[765x53]

"Any help on year and value would be great."

Maybe not so great. Serial removed, value zero.

Pre- 1968, no problem for a long gun.

[Griff]

"Any help on year and value would be great."
Maybe not so great. Serial removed, value zero.

Pre- 1968, no problem for a long gun.

Not quite,

The major issue with firearm serial numbers is this: basically — if a firearm never had a serial number it can be sold, but if a firearm had a serial number and it was removed, it cannot be sold. Here are the applicable statutes:

Per 26 U.S.C. § 5861(h), the NFA makes it a crime “to receive or possess a firearm [as defined by the NFA] having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered.”
Per 18 U.S.C. 922 (k), the GCA says “It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.”

[vancelw]

"Any help on year and value would be great."
Maybe not so great. Serial removed, value zero.

Pre- 1968, no problem for a long gun.

Not quite,

The major issue with firearm serial numbers is this: basically — if a firearm never had a serial number it can be sold, but if a firearm had a serial number and it was removed, it cannot be sold. Here are the applicable statutes:

Per 26 U.S.C. § 5861(h), the NFA makes it a crime “to receive or possess a firearm [as defined by the NFA] having the serial number or other identification required by this chapter obliterated, removed, changed, or altered.”
Per 18 U.S.C. 922 (k), the GCA says “It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.”

AND ...in addition to Federal law, each state has it's own statutes.
https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-code ... 31-11.html

In Texas (and other states) it is illegal to possess anything that had had the serial number altered or obliterated.

Value...$0.00

[Scott Tschirhart]

§ 31.11. Tampering with Identification Numbers

(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
(1) knowingly or intentionally removes, alters, or obliterates the serial number or other permanent identification marking on tangible personal property; or
(2) possesses, sells, or offers for sale tangible personal property and:
(A) the actor knows that the serial number or other permanent identification marking has been removed, altered, or obliterated; or
(B) a reasonable person in the position of the actor would have known that the serial number or other permanent identification marking has been removed, altered, or obliterated.
(b) It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section that the person was:
(1) the owner or acting with the effective consent of the owner of the property involved;
(2) a peace officer acting in the actual discharge of official duties; or
(3) acting with respect to a number assigned to a vehicle by the Texas Department of Transportation or the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles, as applicable, and the person was:
(A) in the actual discharge of official duties as an employee or agent of the department; or
(B) in full compliance with the rules of the department as an applicant for an assigned number approved by the department.
(c) Property involved in a violation of this section may be treated as stolen for purposes of custody and disposition of the property.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) In this section, “vehicle” has the meaning given by Section 541.201, Transportation Code.

Tex. Penal Code Ann. § 31.11 (West)

Nothing here about pre or post 1968, and yes, back in the day, I did arrest a number of folks for this.

[765x53]

I guess I triggered all the jail house lawyers.

[vancelw]

I guess I triggered all the jail house lawyers.

meme.jpg

I DO have something in common with a jail house lawyer....I've never lost a felony case.

[J Miller]

Not Perry Mason or a jail house lawyer, nor do I know much about laws, however some years ago on some forum there was a discussion about a strange looking serial number on a rifle ( a 94 Win, I think ). It turned out to be a BATF issued serial number on a rifle where the original number had been removed. I don't remember the details, but this might be something to check out.


Joe

[Sixgun]

Yes...the ATF will put on a serial number if everything else seems legit.....I saw it done with the only military prototype M1 Thompson SMG produced by Colt during WW2. It's a lot of red tape and money and you had better know someone. Funny thing, this gun was residing for decades in the house of a retired, then died, chief of police in a New Jersey town.....


It's not worth the aggravation or money spent unless the gun has considerable value. Besides, no one is going to question you on an old gun without a number that was obviously removed a century ago. A Glock made last week....your in hot water....ANY gun used in a crime? ....hot water....your a wanted man that the cops was something to stick on and find you with a beat up 1866 carbine with no number?....hot water. A guy in the woods hunting or in your house ....99.9% of cops won't know the difference and really don't care.----00

[AJMD429]

.

What I think is cool is it the saddle ring carbines were really the original 'tactical carbine', with what we now call a 'single point sling'...

[Scott Tschirhart]

I guess I triggered all the jail house lawyers.

Now, that's not very nice.

I don't do any criminal law at all, but the Texas Penal Code is kind of important when you deal with defending police officers and agencies.