CCI ALL Copper .22 LR

[Blaine]

I think they are 21 grains, HP....
Over 1800 FPS
Anybody try these?
They might be useful in those .22 pocket shooters for SD distances.
None are to be found right now, of course.

[Grizz]

1800 from what barrel length? do you want a hollow point on a bullet that light. what does the mafia use?

[Scott Tschirhart]

Is this a California kind of thing?

[Alan Wood]

Is this a California kind of thing?

Probably is given the lead bullet restrictions here.

[Pisgah]

I am seeing some interesting material on Federal's Punch .22lr load. Designed for personal defense, 29 gr. lead flat point, 1070 FPS -- out of a 2" barrel! A couple of gel test videos I have seen show penetration of 10 to 16" or so depending on barrel length, with good temporary and permanent wound cavities.

[JimT]

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little – and "too little penetration will get you killed."

Sam Jacobs
Handgun Wounding Factors: An Effectiveness Guide for Law Enforcement

https://ammo.com/articles/handgun-wound ... tors-guide

[Blaine]

1800 from what barrel length? do you want a hollow point on a bullet that light. what does the mafia use?

Probably rifle-length, but I'll bet is hella faster than a regular 30-40 out of a 2" Rat Shooter.

[Blaine]

Is this a California kind of thing?

Anyplace that's lead-restricted...

[3leggedturtle]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ASu9LjWnZAY

Blaine, heres a little real testing for you!

[Blaine]

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little – and "too little penetration will get you killed."

Sam Jacobs
Handgun Wounding Factors: An Effectiveness Guide for Law Enforcement

https://ammo.com/articles/handgun-wound ... tors-guide

And yet, .22 has probably killed more men than anything else, not counting military rifles....

[JimT]

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little – and "too little penetration will get you killed."

Sam Jacobs
Handgun Wounding Factors: An Effectiveness Guide for Law Enforcement

https://ammo.com/articles/handgun-wound ... tors-guide

And yet, .22 has probably killed more men than anything else, not counting military rifles....

Yep. It sure has. Though sometimes it took days for the one who was shot to die. For self defense/law enforcement it is hoped for a faster end to hostilities. That said, I have carried a .22 at times for CCW but I did not load it with light bullets. I want something that will penetrate and opted to carry solid round nose.

My criteria normally is "Would I use it to take a deer?" If I would not use it on deer, why would I choose to use it against an aggressor who is willing to wound or kill me?

[Scott Tschirhart]

I've had the unfortunate experience of having to shoot a number of people and seeing a lot of other people shot. One particular guy got shot dead in the sternum with a .25 auto. I found him in a narrow apartment hallway. He didn't finish the cigarette that he lit after he got shot and the ash trail was right across his chin. But he also didn't go anywhere.

Top stoppers that we saw were 12 ga shotguns. I never saw anyone shot in the torso with buckshot or a slug that survived the encounter. More importantly, they stopped doing what they were doing to get themselve shot immediately. I still think the best house gun is a 12 ga with cheap OO buck.

The .30 caliber rifles were next.

Once you got into pistols, things were not so clear. But Jim is right, underpenetration will get you killed.

The minimum I would carry for defensive use is a .22 Magnum snubby and that was my carry choice when I rode the bike a lot. [I carried a High Standard Derringer in .22 mag for years as a police officer, but the ammo today is so much better than what we had back then.] I'm comfortable with this only because my Smith is so easy to shoot and it hits dead on the top of the white dot on the front sight with Gold Dot ammo.

[marlinman93]

The question really is consistency. Not whether we can come up with a few instances when thugs were shot with a particular cartridge and dropped dead later, or even immediately. But how often the result was what we hoped for.
So for my own use I want something that's been known to accomplish the task on a reliable basis, not something that's known to occasionally do so.

[piller]

Thankfully, no personal experience on humans. On animals, making a hole that goes all the way through has been best. Shot placement is a big deal.

[Blaine]

In the Broke Old Days, I got a S&W 317 .22 for my first EDC. I practiced often on targets that were the size of the torso area. I totally agree that one shot is not enough, so I honed my double action skills and after awhile I could empty those 8 Stingers into the torso area in a couple seconds.
After some money came in, I went to a S&W AirWeight J Frame, 38 spc and my plan was still to shoot until the threat was gone. I went to an LCP when they came out...same plan. I just convinced myself that my new Sig 365 SAS (hate the sights ) is reliable, and my plan remains the same.
YesSirs, .22 is not a very good choice, but it doesn't have to be useless whatsoever.
I beg to differ on that full penetration idea for personal defense because I don't want a .452 going through a marauding mulatto and hitting granny behind him.

[Scott Tschirhart]

I beg to differ on that full penetration idea for personal defense because I don't want a .452 going through a marauding mulatto and hitting granny behind him.

I understand why you think that way, and I am not here to change your mind. But consider that folks are not always going to have their chest square to you and hold still for your shot.

You may want that penetration if you have to shoot through a large bicep or some other obstruction. Penetration is your friend, and its pretty much all you have in a pistol or revolver. [Pistols poke holes, rifles blow holes through, and shotguns, at the right range, remove chunks.] Just like on any other animal, big holes in both sides help let cold air in and warm blood out.

[Blaine]

I beg to differ on that full penetration idea for personal defense because I don't want a .452 going through a marauding mulatto and hitting granny behind him.

I understand why you think that way, and I am not here to change your mind. But consider that folks are not always going to have their chest square to you and hold still for your shot.

You may want that penetration if you have to shoot through a large bicep or some other obstruction. Penetration is your friend, and its pretty much all you have in a pistol or revolver. [Pistols poke holes, rifles blow holes through, and shotguns, at the right range, remove chunks.] Just like on any other animal, big holes in both sides help let cold air in and warm blood out.

I absolutely see what your talking about, Sir....

[piller]

I have never had to shoot another human. If I live the rest of my life without needing to do it, I can be perfectly happy. HOWEVER, I absolutely refuse to allow someone who intends to kill me to do it without the high probability that they will not survive the action. My choice for carry is something which usually gives 14 to 16 inches of penetration on ordinance gelatin with 4 layers of denim in front of the gelatin. There are several choices which give that. The faster my attacker bleeds out, the less chance he or she will get away. A hole going all the way through usually works on wild game.

[JimT]

Thank you Scott. You described it very well.
I know of several such situations .....

[piller]

Those all copper CCI .22lr just might be good for the same anti-rodent uses as a .22lr treated to Paco's tool. Used the bullets from Paco's tool on rats and ground squirrels at a friend's place. The tool for dishing the nose, then the hollow point tool was used on the bullets. One rat looked like it had been chewed on by a terrier. I have fun using Paco's Accu'RZR tool on my .22lr bullets, and they still work in my Ruger MkII if I do not overdo it on the first step. If I make the nose too wide on the first step they do not feed well. The next step to give that deep hollow point sure causes them to open up on small animals. The Baby Scorpion points open up a little and still penetrate almost like a solid nose. If a .22lr was what I had to use for self protection, the Baby Scorpion points would be my choice. They seem to go straight in and through what they hit. Round nose .22lr sometimes give a circuitous wound channel on rat sized or larger animals for me. The dished in nose with the deep hollow point sure turns squirrels into a limp heap in a hurry. I try to hit them in the ribs. That way I can save the front shoulders and the hindquarters. I skin them and parboil them before chicken frying them.