Is this the last of Scouting in America?
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Is this the last of Scouting in America?
This sure looks like the beginning of the end for the Boy Scouts of America. As an Eagle Scout like my father before me and with the middle name of Baden, last of Powell, I have a singular fondness for my years with this organization, starting with Cub Scouts. So many camping trips and hikes, a chance to do a 50-miler at Philmont Scout Ranch here in New Mexico, learning from the wisdom of some wonderful adult leaders. I was not abused, nor did I hear of it, but I am sure it happened.
Now my sacred Philmont is collateral in this game of victims and attorneys. My heart goes out to the victims -- I was raped and sodomized at age five by a stranger with a knife who the police never caught -- but I fear the destruction of this historic and useful organization is too high a price to pay.
Just heartbroken for all concerned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51552576
Now my sacred Philmont is collateral in this game of victims and attorneys. My heart goes out to the victims -- I was raped and sodomized at age five by a stranger with a knife who the police never caught -- but I fear the destruction of this historic and useful organization is too high a price to pay.
Just heartbroken for all concerned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51552576
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
Unutterably sad for everyone involved in BSA.
My personal opinion is that there isn't a punishment
harsh enough for those people who abused the kids.
-Stretch
My personal opinion is that there isn't a punishment
harsh enough for those people who abused the kids.
-Stretch
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
Child abusers can be anywhere. I do not think the BSA was complicit.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
- AJMD429
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
What really did them in was their capitulation to the politically-correct crowd.
They took the 'boy' out of Boy Scout, and instead of helping young boys become adult men, morphed into genderless boring stuff that not many kids could relate to.
Without the 'character building of boys to men' part being as clear, all that was left was the 'get outdoors for an adventure' part, and today's kids seem to be in two groups:
> one group loves the outdoors, and either lives there and is hunting, hiking, camping, and fishing already, or has friends and relatives who do, and goes with them. They aren't really looking to join a group just doing the same things, that involves scheduled meetings and rituals and things they don't see a need for.
> the other group isn't that interested in the outdoors, so would rather stay home and watch television than actually go out and get cold or dirty or whatever.
Sadly, there are a few kids who DO live in the city, and would like to get out, and would put up with (and benefit from) the rituals and so on. Hopefully programs like Ted Nugent's will pick up some of that slack, and perhaps better so in some cases, as there is not the 'commitment' that some parents might find hard to do if they are poor, inner city, single, and so on.
ANOTHER great character-building program available nearly everywhere is the 4-H programs, and although it mixes the boys and girls, that's fine, because it was designed that way from the beginning. Competitive sports also can do some of the same team-building and so on.
I think if the Boy Scouts still were a 'making boys into men' program and strong due to that, they would survive these allegations better.
They took the 'boy' out of Boy Scout, and instead of helping young boys become adult men, morphed into genderless boring stuff that not many kids could relate to.
Without the 'character building of boys to men' part being as clear, all that was left was the 'get outdoors for an adventure' part, and today's kids seem to be in two groups:
> one group loves the outdoors, and either lives there and is hunting, hiking, camping, and fishing already, or has friends and relatives who do, and goes with them. They aren't really looking to join a group just doing the same things, that involves scheduled meetings and rituals and things they don't see a need for.
> the other group isn't that interested in the outdoors, so would rather stay home and watch television than actually go out and get cold or dirty or whatever.
Sadly, there are a few kids who DO live in the city, and would like to get out, and would put up with (and benefit from) the rituals and so on. Hopefully programs like Ted Nugent's will pick up some of that slack, and perhaps better so in some cases, as there is not the 'commitment' that some parents might find hard to do if they are poor, inner city, single, and so on.
ANOTHER great character-building program available nearly everywhere is the 4-H programs, and although it mixes the boys and girls, that's fine, because it was designed that way from the beginning. Competitive sports also can do some of the same team-building and so on.
I think if the Boy Scouts still were a 'making boys into men' program and strong due to that, they would survive these allegations better.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I was in the Boy Scouts for many years, and became an Eagle Scout in 1972. I loved being a part of scouting.
I'd agree with Doc AJ that what did them in was their capitulation to the PC crowd. Of course.... it wasn't ever really about PC.
There was the admission of deviants as troop leaders and troop members, and then the integration of boys and girls. First they broke the moral back of the organization and then they fundamentally transformed it's character and purpose. It was a deliberate and well-executed plan to corrupt a pillar of society... To eliminate a respected organization dedicated to teaching boys aspects of self-confidence, good character, and citizenship.
It's a political execution by way of bad press and media. A solid blow against "toxic masculinity". An organized left-wing effort to deprive boys of a resource where they might learn traditional values and develop a slate of skills or gain experience that they cannot gain elsewhere.
I'm not certain how to address the claims of abuse. It would be easy and unrealistic to assume that all of the claims are untrue, but so many years down life's road I know very well that bad people really do exist. The best I can do is say that I never saw a hint of such in any troop that I was involved with, and did not know, or know of, a single boy during my years in scouting or as a young adult leader that experienced such abuse. I find the abundance of accusers to be, in a word... unbelievable.
I'd agree with Doc AJ that what did them in was their capitulation to the PC crowd. Of course.... it wasn't ever really about PC.
There was the admission of deviants as troop leaders and troop members, and then the integration of boys and girls. First they broke the moral back of the organization and then they fundamentally transformed it's character and purpose. It was a deliberate and well-executed plan to corrupt a pillar of society... To eliminate a respected organization dedicated to teaching boys aspects of self-confidence, good character, and citizenship.
It's a political execution by way of bad press and media. A solid blow against "toxic masculinity". An organized left-wing effort to deprive boys of a resource where they might learn traditional values and develop a slate of skills or gain experience that they cannot gain elsewhere.
I'm not certain how to address the claims of abuse. It would be easy and unrealistic to assume that all of the claims are untrue, but so many years down life's road I know very well that bad people really do exist. The best I can do is say that I never saw a hint of such in any troop that I was involved with, and did not know, or know of, a single boy during my years in scouting or as a young adult leader that experienced such abuse. I find the abundance of accusers to be, in a word... unbelievable.
Government office attracts the power-mad, yet it's people who just want to be left alone to live life on their own terms who are considered dangerous.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
History teaches that it's a small window in which people can fight back before it is too dangerous to fight back.
- AJMD429
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
"First they broke the moral back of the organization and then they fundamentally transformed it's character and purpose. It was a deliberate and well-executed plan to corrupt a pillar of society... To eliminate a respected organization dedicated to teaching boys aspects of self-confidence, good character, and citizenship."
Yep....
Yep....
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
- crs
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
"What really did them in was their capitulation to the politically-correct crowd." Agreed
CRS, NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I rather doubt the incidence of abusers is higher in scouting than in any other organization. I expect that when abuse occurs in a large organization, lawyers come out of the woodwork like like sharks around blood which in turn brings more accusers to light as such layers advertise. I read daily where cops, teachers, reverends etc are found guilty of these same horrid crimes, scouts and priests have no monopoly here. Those who would commit crimes against this most vulnerable of our population should be executed with no appeal and left to rot in the sun.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I’m not an Eagle Scout but I was a Cub Scout leader while my kids went through the program. Even though my boys didn’t stay in scouting through Boy Scouts, we all enjoyed the times we had in cub scouts tremendously. Cub Scouts is a great program.
To be a leader, all adults were background checked, there had to be at least two non-spouse adults with the kids at all times, and there was absolutely nothing that was allowed to happen behind closed doors between boys and leaders. BSA took great steps to prevent situations where abuse could occur. This was in the last ten years that I was involved.
That said, all those policies must have been in response to the creeps and pervs of years past for which BSA is now paying.
BSA is a great organization, but I fear was already in decline and tried to make some radical moves to stem the decline- admitting gays and then girls. I suppose they were trying to keep up with the times but really just lost their traditional base.
The point made that there are creeps and pervs among all walks of life is true and no doubt has always been true. The lawsuits stemming from the pervs of generations ago are hurting the BSA of today. I wish there were some way to punish the pervs of the past and give victims some compensation without wrecking the organization of today. It’s a shame.
To be a leader, all adults were background checked, there had to be at least two non-spouse adults with the kids at all times, and there was absolutely nothing that was allowed to happen behind closed doors between boys and leaders. BSA took great steps to prevent situations where abuse could occur. This was in the last ten years that I was involved.
That said, all those policies must have been in response to the creeps and pervs of years past for which BSA is now paying.
BSA is a great organization, but I fear was already in decline and tried to make some radical moves to stem the decline- admitting gays and then girls. I suppose they were trying to keep up with the times but really just lost their traditional base.
The point made that there are creeps and pervs among all walks of life is true and no doubt has always been true. The lawsuits stemming from the pervs of generations ago are hurting the BSA of today. I wish there were some way to punish the pervs of the past and give victims some compensation without wrecking the organization of today. It’s a shame.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
When the LDS church pulled their support that was the end of it.
Put your boys (and girls) in a wrestling program. Best character building platform there is.
Put your boys (and girls) in a wrestling program. Best character building platform there is.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I hope and pray that the BSA survives. My grandson just had his Arrow of Light crossover last night. He can't wait join his new troop. They go camping once every month.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I don’t know how this will play out. Oddly enough It looks a lot like the same tactics that were used against the KKK of all things. Accuse, accuse, accuse... then Sue, Sue, Sue until the target organization is essentially driven out of existence by the mountains of legal debt and “ settlements” they are forced to endure.
I would be more distressed if we were talking about the Boy Scout organization I knew as a child( I’m 70).
This modern iteration of Scouting...I’m not so sure the same sadness is there.
I would be more distressed if we were talking about the Boy Scout organization I knew as a child( I’m 70).
This modern iteration of Scouting...I’m not so sure the same sadness is there.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
The Boy Scouts cowtowed to the LGBT crowd and pretty much ruined everything good they ever stood for.
Is there an moral alternative out there ?
Yes - it's quite similar to the former Boy Scouts of America and is called The Christian Service Brigade. My church, along with several others in my area sponsor a local unit.
Is there an moral alternative out there ?
Yes - it's quite similar to the former Boy Scouts of America and is called The Christian Service Brigade. My church, along with several others in my area sponsor a local unit.
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
As far as I can tell, many of the lawsuits arise from abuse committed before the organization began to change in some of the ways cited. Scouting was never complicit in the strict sense, but like the Church of Rome, was slow to react, admit and confront the problem. And yes this is like chumming with ground-up fish and blood in the water as far attracting attorneys whose primary motive is profit from others' misery. The question is, does the institution need to be destroyed in the process? I think it is well worth saving, but I don't know how it will be done -- if it can be. And I will admit I never had much use for "Scout executives."
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I'm not really surprised that BSA is doing poorly. As a kid I was with the Y and we laughed at the scouts short pants. It was all in good fun. Both taught morals, ethics and skills.
But the Y morphed into a day spa / athletic club. Heck, kids were the last thing the local Y is interested in. First they let in girls with the Indian Maidens. Now the entire Y and all of it's facilities are over run with females (remember when women weren't even allowed inside?). They no longer teach morals, ethics (just look at the stuff that happens in them) or skills.
Truth be told, all a dad can do today is teach these things to his own kids while trying to undo the teaching that the schools and sadly even some churches teach.
But the Y morphed into a day spa / athletic club. Heck, kids were the last thing the local Y is interested in. First they let in girls with the Indian Maidens. Now the entire Y and all of it's facilities are over run with females (remember when women weren't even allowed inside?). They no longer teach morals, ethics (just look at the stuff that happens in them) or skills.
Truth be told, all a dad can do today is teach these things to his own kids while trying to undo the teaching that the schools and sadly even some churches teach.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
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"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
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- Levergunner 2.0
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
Ditto on almost all that has been said above. I did not have the opportunity to get my eagle, we had a troop that was active for about a year when I was 12 or so. I started Cubs with my son in 1st grade and was actively involved as a leader until last year when he achieved Eagle at 17. 11 years of enjoying scouting and participating in something that was not available to me. I find it hard to believe the amount of allegations... and if that is all true I am so saddened by these pervert predators that were allowed as leaders and especially for these damaged children. Our troop leaders were all parents of scouts. Not that being a parent means there are not evil ones among us, but I do believe the chances of abuse have to be almost zero when the leaders are known people in the community and a parent of a child in the troop. I’m not sure today if I had a young son or grandson that I would encourage scouting. Letting the girls in so they could get an Eagle award to make it fair was a mistake. I think a lot of making it fair (across many venues) is dumbing down to the lowest common denominator. People should strive for excellence and find a means to excel... not waste effort on bringing down others that have chosen a path to a reward that they have legitimately earned.
One final note, my son earned his Eagle, we had many Moms in our troop that earned their son’s Eagles for them.
One final note, my son earned his Eagle, we had many Moms in our troop that earned their son’s Eagles for them.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I totally agree. Deliberate, demonic, deranged . . .I'd agree with Doc AJ that what did them in was their capitulation to the PC crowd. Of course.... it wasn't ever really about PC.
There was the admission of deviants as troop leaders and troop members, and then the integration of boys and girls. First they broke the moral back of the organization and then they fundamentally transformed it's character and purpose. It was a deliberate and well-executed plan to corrupt a pillar of society...
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
I totally agree with your statements. I had nothing, but great experiences in Scouting.FWiedner wrote: ↑Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:58 pm I was in the Boy Scouts for many years, and became an Eagle Scout in 1972. I loved being a part of scouting.
I'd agree with Doc AJ that what did them in was their capitulation to the PC crowd. Of course.... it wasn't ever really about PC.
There was the admission of deviants as troop leaders and troop members, and then the integration of boys and girls. First they broke the moral back of the organization and then they fundamentally transformed it's character and purpose. It was a deliberate and well-executed plan to corrupt a pillar of society... To eliminate a respected organization dedicated to teaching boys aspects of self-confidence, good character, and citizenship.
It's a political execution by way of bad press and media. A solid blow against "toxic masculinity". An organized left-wing effort to deprive boys of a resource where they might learn traditional values and develop a slate of skills or gain experience that they cannot gain elsewhere.
I'm not certain how to address the claims of abuse. It would be easy and unrealistic to assume that all of the claims are untrue, but so many years down life's road I know very well that bad people really do exist. The best I can do is say that I never saw a hint of such in any troop that I was involved with, and did not know, or know of, a single boy during my years in scouting or as a young adult leader that experienced such abuse. I find the abundance of accusers to be, in a word... unbelievable.
I know a whole lot about very little and nothing about a whole lot.
Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
My closest friend has been a scout leader for 25 years. I have not said a word. Probably won’t.
Kind regards,
Tycer
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- marlinman93
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Is this the last of Scouting in America?
In the case of any large organization, or wealthy organization, the larger and wealthier the organization is, the more likely they'll be to cover up wrong doing. Scouting isn't alone in this, nor were they more guilty than society in general. But they (like other large institutions) had more to lose by these things becoming public. So although BSA was likely not aware of all of these incidents happening on a national level, there were still numerous attempts to cover them up when they did come to light.
I think scouting was in trouble long before these latest incidents became public. When they decided to become something they'd never been, in order to appease the left winged minority, it began the slow death of scouting.
I think scouting was in trouble long before these latest incidents became public. When they decided to become something they'd never been, in order to appease the left winged minority, it began the slow death of scouting.
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