45 Colt Paradox

[Idiot]

I've been fooling around with a Handi-Rifle with a paradox barrel for a while now. It shoots 410 and 45 Colt. It is the perfect rabbit gun. Anyway, I've used swagged lead bullets for the 45 Colt loaded at light "cowboy" velocities (250 grain @ 750 fps). This works okay but I want to increase the velocity a bit; to perhaps maximum standard Colt 45 velocities (950 fps for a 250 grain bullet). To do this I will have to run bullets that are a tad bit harder than pure lead; say at wheel weight hardness (even though I may not need to use a harder bullet, I'd like to avoid too much expansion on tough hide). Do any of you have any experience firing wheel weight hard bullets (10-12 BHN) out of paradox barrels at velocities approaching and perhaps exceeding 1000 fps? If you have, how did it work out.

Hobie: this question is tailor made for you.

[hfcable]

in my contender such loads all shot sideways...keyholing every time. i havent tried it since, but also think that using a longer case, ie a 2 1/2" 410 brass case, would put the bullet closer to the rifling, less jump, and so maybe more accurate. havent gotten around to this with my other projects to do.

[AJMD429]

I had a breakopen (Braztek?) .410/45LC I was going to use for my kids as a deer gun (but hedged my bet because back then .410 slug was LEGAL for deer in Indiana, but .45 LC wasn't - go figure that one out - especially if you check the ballistics on a .410 slug and it ls basically a very wimpy .32-20 power level).

Anyway, the .45 colt loads were shooting literally ten inch groups at 25 yards, so I eventually sold the gun to someone who just wanted a shotgun. I was also thinking of .410 brass shotshells, or some generic .45 brass for reloads, but once they legalized my Marlin 1894 I figured why bother. I never tried a .454 Casull in it - don't know if it would have been safe, but on mine, the .45 +P factory loaded jacketed bullets did best (shrunk groups right down to a tiny 4" at 25 yards )

[O.S.O.K.]

I did not know that H&R made paradox barrels as described. The only ones I knew of were the Brit guns.

So, it has shallow rifling that doesn't interfere with the shot and still spins a soft tight fitting 45 bullet...

I wouldn't think you'd have any trouble with a softer alloy such as 1:20 at 950 fps - that's what I'd choose - just make sure it's over bore sized .001" and it should do just dandy IMHO.

Have you tried the dead soft bullets at the 950 fps velocity? May be just fine too. Try some with Lee liquid alox lube applied - this is exclellent stuff in my experience.

[Idiot]

Thanks guys.

It is interesting that bullets keyholed or otherwise shot inaccurate in your guns. I will certainly consider this. Perhaps the rifling was too shallow (or the bullet to hard) to spin the bullet. This is curious.

O.S.O.K., Handi-Rifle does not make a paradox barrel. It an after market barrel. I bought the rifle to hunt doves and rabbits with. The rifling is light and just enough to spin the Colt 45 bullet as it exits the barrel, while at the same time not spreading 410 shot all over kingdom come.

45 Colt CCI Trailblazer ammo shots accurately in this gun (I'd sure like to find more of it). I've hit rabbits broadside at 100 yards with it (open sights of course). However, I'd also like to use it for close in deer if possible. To do that I'd like a little harder bullet and bit more velocity.

What I'm concerned about is when that harder bullet hits the choked rifling going full tilt and begins its passage to the muzzle. With pure lead bullets there's no problem at all. Now I assume that with a soft alloy there shouldn't be a problem either, but I thought I'd ask those who might have done it. The two problems I can think of are higher pressures as the bullet hits the rifling (its takes more pressure to swag a harder bullet) and two, if a harder bullet will take the rifling and spin, or skip over it and fly out sideways.

I guess the trick is to have a bullet sized to avoid too much shift while traveling down the smooth bore to the rifling in the last three inches of barrel. And then be either soft enough or narrow enough to hit the rifling and spin without sending pressures to the point of bulging the barrel. Fun for sure.

Hmmm...

[O.S.O.K.]

I'd council trying the Lee liquid alox with your soft bullets first. And they will make outstanding deer hunting bullets - just keep your shots within 100 yards.

Thsi is basically a muzzle loader.

If you want more punch, go to a heavier bullet - if you cast your own, get a 270 grain semiwad cutter RCBS mould - the one designed by Dave Scovill - I think its called the SAA bullet.

But I really don't think it's needed as the 250's will go through and through and expand....

[Idiot]

If you want more punch, go to a heavier bullet - if you cast your own, get a 270 grain semiwad cutter RCBS mould - the one designed by Dave Scovill - I think its called the SAA bullet.

That's where I'm headed.

On of the guys on this board is graciously sending me a dozen to try out (in this and a handgun). I'll let you know how it goes.

[AJMD429]

My gun had deep rifling, but had a screw-in 'choke' which was actually a very deep 'straight-rifled' section apparently to un-spin any shot somehow. I only fired a few shot rounds out of it but it seemed to work. Anyway, when you un-screwed that part, the gun was basically a normally rifled "45 colt" rifle with a heck of a long free-bore.

I think in mine, the problem wasn't rifling-related, but rather the inch-long jump the bullet had to make before it got contact with any rifling (or barrel, for that matter) to help stabilize it.

I even though about re-boring it to a longer standard .430 cartridge of some sort, but really didn't have the motivation or time for such a project.

[Hobie]

I'll second the heavier bullet approach to increasing punch. However, the CCI .45 Colt loads I used in my carbine were pretty much BP era .44-40 power level and that should do fine for deer. I don't think jacketed bullets or hard-cast bullets are appropriate for your gun. Seems to me that a paradox gun is a wealth of compromise, you've just run into one more.

[Idiot]

I agree Hobie; I will not be using any hard cast or jacketed bullet in this barrel.

Sometimes I wonder if the sum of the compromises is worth the effort. However, it is fun to shoot doves with the 410 and then whack a big jack if the opportunity arises. Plus, it is nice to have a gun for doves that can become a formidable weapon in a matter of seconds. I like that.

[Hobie]

I agree Hobie; I will not be using any hard cast or jacketed bullet in this barrel.

Sometimes I wonder if the sum of the compromises is worth the effort. However, it is fun to shoot doves with the 410 and then whack a big jack if the opportunity arises. Plus, it is nice to have a gun for doves that can become a formidable weapon in a matter of seconds. I like that.

Such ideas can often float our boat for quite a while. I always wanted a good 20 ga. paradox SxS but that is probably the sum of all my accumulation right there in the one gun!

[CowboyTutt]

I think in mine, the problem wasn't rifling-related, but rather the inch-long jump the bullet had to make before it got contact with any rifling (or barrel, for that matter) to help stabilize it.

I'm betting this is going to be a problem for accuracy with the 45 Colt as well.

-Tutt

[northwoods]

Try finding the information Bowen has on his paradox barrel. Seems Lee may have made a special bullet with an extra wide grease grove. The wide grease grove was not used for grease but gave a relief for the lead to flow. The bullet was shot dry but used a greased wad behind it. Ross
Seyfried worked all this out years ago and wrote an article in Guns and
Ammo about the trials and errors to make it work. Food for thought.

[hfcable]

i think the best result might be had by using a stout brass 410 2 1/2' case, with a heeled bullet that was soft enough but fit the grooves really well. i plan to try it, someday [sigh] if i ever get time; i have the cases, but not the mould.

[Hobie]

Try finding the information Bowen has on his paradox barrel. Seems Lee may have made a special bullet with an extra wide grease grove. The wide grease grove was not used for grease but gave a relief for the lead to flow. The bullet was shot dry but used a greased wad behind it. Ross
Seyfried worked all this out years ago and wrote an article in Guns and
Ammo about the trials and errors to make it work. Food for thought.

IIRC (I kept the article I think) the bullet looked a lot like the "collar button" lightweight for the .458" bored rifles.

[northwoods]

Hobie,
Yes, and it was deep seated in .444 Marlin cases trimmed too length. The cylinder was bored straight through. Seyfried was gettin 2" groups at fifty yards if I remember correctly. I have a friend that has three from Bowen but I have never paid a lot of attention to them. I know he likes to pack a Colt clone with a 4 3/4 barrel with both bullets and shot. He has killed two turkeys at least. Interesting concept, so many things to play with and so little time.
The best to all of you.
Bob

[northwoods]

Hobie and all PS,
Those are all .44 and now they have the .45 and I think they are using the .460 case. Also the bullet needs to be soft lead to allow the bumb up
and the swage down. If it was me in the Handi I might try a .44 paper
patch and start way low in the .460 case if it would chamber. Please be aware I do not know if this would work just a starting idea.
Bob