OT - 5th Amendment/Law School - Instructor & Cop lecture

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue May 13, 2008 10:02 pm

View here if possible, or download to Itunes. VERY good to watch.

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

Apparently this video is really, really popular right now, so don't be surprised if it doesn't let you in.

Summary:

Professor James Duane gives a lecture explaining how anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. This is a lecture being given to law students, and it's explaining why any attorney worth his salt will ALWAYS advise his client to remain silent.

He then proceeds to give examples of seemingly harmless statements that have resulted in convictions.

He says that there is nothing you can tell the police that will help you.

Your own statements to the police cannot be used in your defense at trial.

He says that 25% of those who have been proven innocent due to DNA evidence, were convicted based on their own statements.

He says that no matter what you say, you'll always say something that can be used against you.

He gives a lot of scenarios that show how the prosecution will take pieces of your testimony and shove it in the jury's face.

He cites a Supreme Court decision which states, in part:

"One of the Fifth Amendment's basic functions is to protect innocent men who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances. Truthful responses of an innocent witness, as well as those of a wrongdoer, may provide the government with incriminating evidence from the speaker's own mouth."

A police officer comes for the second half and shows how, as a police officer, his job is to get you to talk. He goes into great detail the techniques he uses to get people to talk. He gives examples of suspects and how he was able to use their own personality types against them during the interview.

He explains how strongly the cards are stacked against you, and how the police use that against you.

He also said that he will lie to the suspect and say that he may be able to get their sentence reduced if they'll write an apology letter to the victim. If the suspect takes the bait, he'll have them write their letter and sign it, then he'll sign it, and he'll pass that letter straight to the prosecutor as a written confession.

Well worth viewing.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:19 pm

Your only defense if arrested is total silence. Not one word. Not even your name. You got ID, let them have it. Close your mouth and say NOTHING.

That is not easy when you are scared out of your pants and being treated like stuff by cops and prosecutors.

But that's your only choice.

Even if your lawyer is in the room, SAY NOTHING!

Joe

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:40 pm

Great post.

As a defense counsel, and former prosecutor, people need to understand that the prosecution DOES NOT CARE if you are innocent. From Law Enforcement up through the Prosecuting Attorney, their job is to prove your guilt.

Citizens think that if they simply explain their situation to the Officer, etc. then a determination can be made in their favor. LE is not looking for an excuse to let you go.... They have no intention of playing fair for that is not the job...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:41 pm

Yup, that's what American freedom as come to. We now have one right left, the right to remain silent. That's it. Everything you say will be used against you. Every other freedom has been regulated to death.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Tue May 13, 2008 11:52 pm

+ 1

Great post. Whether it's "fair" or not, this is definitely the way it is. I've got a friend who is a defense attorney, also began his career as a prosecutor. He advises anyone who will listen to shut their mouth and call an attorney if there is ever any trouble. Period. Good advice. - DixieBoy

JohnnyReb · Post by **JohnnyReb** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:02 am

One last piece of advice (can't believe I am doing this...... I normally charge for it)..... Never take a lie detector test.
If your attorney suggests a lie detector test will help.... get another lawyer......

On a very rare occasions.....pursuant to very specific stipulations...... a prosecutor will drop a case against you if you pass the test. This is generally when they have more than one defendant and would have a hard time proving the guilt among multiple defendants. It can be used in such situations to narrow the field. Again, it is very tricky and more than one defense lawyer has allowed their client to step in that Bear trap.

I have trapped lawyers in such cases.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:13 am

Thanks! Although it made Nancy weep.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:43 am

JohnnyReb wrote:Great post.

As a defense counsel, and former prosecutor, people need to understand that the prosecution DOES NOT CARE if you are innocent. From Law Enforcement up through the Prosecuting Attorney, their job is to prove your guilt.

Citizens think that if they simply explain their situation to the Officer, etc. then a determination can be made in their favor. LE is not looking for an excuse to let you go.... They have no intention of playing fair for that is not the job...

And all my life I was taught that they were there to ensure justice was done and to protect people...

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:05 am

I am proud to say that I have put many a Murderer, Pedophile and Rapist behind bars using these very techniques. I will continue to use them because in most Child Sexual Abuse Cases there is no evidence because it is by nature a very private crime. There is no Battery or Assaul evidence. These children are lured into this by these monsters and then made to feel guilty. So you all can be upset by our techniques and I will continue to clean up the streets from the idiots that you all fear your children will come in contact with. Mean while I violate no Constitutional Law to do my job. Be careful for what you ask someday you may get it at your door and then what will you think. All you lawyerly types may say that we as Law Enforcement work to "Prove your guilt" this is wrong. We work to prosecute the guilty. Shame on you for saying otherwise. I made an oath and so did you to work toward this goal. Every victim deserves at least the same rights as the accused. Unfortunately that is not the case in our Justice System. Sometimes griping about "rights" goes a little too far. Especially when there is no violation in the first place. One of the worst things the Warren Court did was institute the Miranda Rights. This has aloud many many many a suspect to walk free. But because it is the law I follow it and play within the rules. I respect this and work with it. Because after all it may someday be MY right also.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:16 am

As the Officer said, "there is no such thing as a "Miranda Right". It is the Miranda Warning that advises you of a Preexisting Right.

Steve, I am very glad you have helped convict the guilty. But that doesn't mean I have to be at all happy when the same techniques are - regularly - used to convict the innocent.

There are 10,000+ obscure laws out there and everyone is in violation of one of them.

And because of the 68 GCA Our "Levergun Rights" hang in the ballance of not helping "the system" convict us of one of them.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed May 14, 2008 10:52 am

George Orwell said "Good men sleep peaceably at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

It's just a shame that some have lost sight of their original purpose.

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Wed May 14, 2008 12:12 pm

JohnnyReb wrote:
Great post.

As a defense counsel, and former prosecutor, people need to understand that the prosecution DOES NOT CARE if you are innocent. From Law Enforcement up through the Prosecuting Attorney, their job is to prove your guilt.

Citizens think that if they simply explain their situation to the Officer, etc. then a determination can be made in their favor. LE is not looking for an excuse to let you go.... They have no intention of playing fair for that is not the job...

And all my life I was taught that they were there to ensure justice was done and to protect people...
_________________
Sincerely,

Hobie

So because a defense attorney post it, it's true??? LE is looking for the truth whether you believe it or not. Lie? darn right. I've shown phony lineups to crooks saying they've been ID'd which caused them to confess and a number of other techniques that get to the truth that does not violate the law or rights. You think an honest person would say, "yeah, OK I did it."? Do you honestly believe the majority of LE investigating a serious crime would ignore evidence to prove someone innocent knowing that person was innocent just to close out a case and leave the real suspect out there?
So JohnnyReb, as a defense attorney, you know darn well that almost every one of your "clients" are guilty. So in response to your post, is it fair to say a defense attorney DOES NOT CARE if you're guilty, his job is to get you off, even if they know you're guilty.?
And for the record, I've investigated hundreds of cases where someone has explained their situation and avoided arrest and prosecution.
I see this post going south quick with people who are experts at a profession they have no experience in.
As someone else posted before, let's stick to guns. There are plenty of websites to go to to bash cops, why pick this one?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:39 pm

Every time somebody asks: "WHY ME"? My answer is always: "Because you're handy".

I may be flamed or ridiculed because of the following, but after reading the comments above I feel I must post my feelings. OI please forgive me if I sabotage your thread.

I've never been arrested. Never been taken in for questioning, but have been questioned. Most of my interactions with various Sheriff or police officers has been handled quickly and painlessly. But do I trust them ... NO.

I've never had my rights read to me either. If that ever happens, I am on my own. My mouth will shut as if it had been super glued shut. I'm not rich, I can't retain an attorney, and court appointed lawyers are worthless. So my only hope would be to keep my mouth clamped shut and not give my enemys (LEO's) anything to use against me.

Do I trust law enforcement officers? NO, not one bit.
I've had way to many interactions, some privately, some in regards with my work, to trust or respect them.

So you LEO's can whine all you want about how you work to prove the bad guys guilty. But I and many more will just keep on not trusting you.

You have the power to destroy a persons life. Everything that a LEO does is a criminal case. Every time a cop interacts with a citizen it's a criminal situation.
HOWEVER, we lowly citizens have no criminal protection against you. All we can do is try to get our justice in civil court after you cops have raped us up one end and down the other criminally.

You can shoot us, beat us, abuse us, and we can't do a d.a.m.n. thing to defend ourselves without becoming either dead or felons. Except sue you if we survive.

And you want us to trust you????? Dream on.

Joe

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 14, 2008 1:47 pm

jkbrea, A defense counsel's job is to defend the Constitution and the Right of the accused to have Representation - not "get them off".

If they "get off" because of innocence or Government malfeasance then they get off.

Better that a Thousand Guilty go free than One Innocent be wrongly convicted.

But you know as well as I that most criminals DON'T "get off"... but they DID get Representation. And that is not to be dismissed/discounted as pandering to criminals.

The object of this post was for people to listen to lecture on the 5th Amendment and to show that there are so many Laws out there that everyone is guilty of somthing - and that saying anything can get you convicted of somthing if someone is hot to get a conviction as quickly as possible.

As for an innocent person saying "yeah, I did it", it seems that you did not watch the entire lecture, including the pard delivered by the Cop. It can and does happen - if inadvertantly - and does get people convicted.

I'm reminded of the movie "My cousin vinnie" (yes, I know it's fiction) where the new york kids were about to be screwed by their "confession" of "I shot the clerk?" Amazing what difference the inflection of a Question Mark vs a Period can make...

and that is the whole point of the Lecture/Post. You have Rights for a reason. Don't give them up to anybody, for any reason.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Wed May 14, 2008 6:09 pm

OI, as much as it pains me to say it I agree. your part in the system IS to gaurentee my rights as a defendant. This is why I work tirelessly to beat you and your ilk. I am 100% pro rights, pro Constitution, pro Due Process. I think that Joe is a little half baked in his distrust of Law Enforcement but what the heck he seems like a nice guy and he has his opinions and I will respect them. I agree that there are plenty of officers that abuse their power. Too many Officers forget the awsome responsibility of taking someone's liberty. On the other hand I will continue to look for the confession because that sometimes is all I have to work with.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed May 14, 2008 7:58 pm

505stevec wrote:OI, as much as it pains me to say it I agree. your part in the system IS to gaurentee my rights as a defendant. This is why I work tirelessly to beat you and your ilk. I am 100% pro rights, pro Constitution, pro Due Process. I think that Joe is a little half baked in his distrust of Law Enforcement but what the heck he seems like a nice guy and he has his opinions and I will respect them. I agree that there are plenty of officers that abuse their power. Too many Officers forget the awsome responsibility of taking someone's liberty. On the other hand I will continue to look for the confession because that sometimes is all I have to work with.

Half baked ....

I've been called worse.

Joe

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:10 pm

505stevec wrote:OI, as much as it pains me to say it I agree. your part in the system IS to gaurentee my rights as a defendant. This is why I work tirelessly to beat you and your ilk. I am 100% pro rights, pro Constitution, pro Due Process. I think that Joe is a little half baked in his distrust of Law Enforcement but what the heck he seems like a nice guy and he has his opinions and I will respect them. I agree that there are plenty of officers that abuse their power. Too many Officers forget the awsome responsibility of taking someone's liberty. On the other hand I will continue to look for the confession because that sometimes is all I have to work with.

Hey! I'm not "ilk"... and won't be for at least another 4 years. Then I'll be, at 45, "Counselor Ilk", Constitutional Defense Attorney.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed May 14, 2008 8:16 pm

505stevec wrote:OI, as much as it pains me to say it I agree. your part in the system IS to gaurentee my rights as a defendant. This is why I work tirelessly to beat you and your ilk. I am 100% pro rights, pro Constitution, pro Due Process. I think that Joe is a little half baked in his distrust of Law Enforcement but what the heck he seems like a nice guy and he has his opinions and I will respect them. I agree that there are plenty of officers that abuse their power. Too many Officers forget the awsome responsibility of taking someone's liberty. On the other hand I will continue to look for the confession because that sometimes is all I have to work with.

http://www.komoradio.com/news/18929229.html

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you...

Grizz

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Wed May 14, 2008 9:18 pm

Grizz wrote:
505stevec wrote:OI, as much as it pains me to say it I agree. your part in the system IS to gaurentee my rights as a defendant. This is why I work tirelessly to beat you and your ilk. I am 100% pro rights, pro Constitution, pro Due Process. I think that Joe is a little half baked in his distrust of Law Enforcement but what the heck he seems like a nice guy and he has his opinions and I will respect them. I agree that there are plenty of officers that abuse their power. Too many Officers forget the awsome responsibility of taking someone's liberty. On the other hand I will continue to look for the confession because that sometimes is all I have to work with.
http://www.komoradio.com/news/18929229.html

It's not paranoia when they really are out to get you...

I realize I will not convince you but Isnt the "system" working in this instance also in that the officer is being brought to justice? You, me or no one else will ever get rid of unscrupulous people in office. They however do not represent the majority of the men and women that fight for both yours and my safety.

Grizz

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed May 14, 2008 11:16 pm

505,

Yeah, in the same way that the criminals are a minority of the population and the majority of folks the police meet are on their side, not hostile, and don't present a threat.

Unfortunately it's difficult to get that vibe, know what I mean?

By posting that article I don't condemn all enforcement. I just note that there's a tension that is regrettable and I wish it didn't exist.

Yes, the bad guy got caught and now he's in trouble. And it's good he got caught. Another one in WA just got busted for home invasion rapes. He was on the force for years. Using the system computers to discover and cover up his crimes.

Maybe it's just something in the WA water?

Can't we all just get along?

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu May 15, 2008 5:53 am

I think a large part of it is the lack of uproar from the good cops when a bad one comes to light.
Everyone gloats when a civilian criminal is brought to justice & the hunt for them is a very open forward moving thing.

IMHO its about a hundred times worse when a sworn officer commits a crime yet its usually a hush hush thing. There shouldn't even really be a need for any internal affairs. Every officer should I think consider himself an internal affairs officer & push for prosecution as hard when its a brother officer as when its just a taxpayer.

Its been awhile here but bad cops come to light & the funny thing is when they do the police union & other cops rally behind them. The worst case recently here involved a cop taking & bragging about taking a piece of an accident victims skull to use as an ashtray. Sounds far fetched but its a fact.
Another cop turned him in but the force rallied behind him, the union fought long & hard & the guy kept his job. How things like that are supposed to instil confidence is beyond me.

Personally I know alot of our police. 99% are great good people. But when push comes to shove they will side with their own. Thats how fraternal things work & why IMHO police shouldn't be considered a fraternity.
Fraternities exist to protect the organization. Police exist to solve crimes & serve the public. IMHO of course.