Casting with lead free solder

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:39 pm

Well I gotta say one thing, they sure make a purty bullet. As expected, it's lighter than lead, about 30% but it flows well and casts up very nice.

Not sure how hard they are cause I don't have a tester. maybe I need to get one.

Here's a pic for ya.

I put a gas check on one just to see how it fit, very snug so there's not much shrinkage.

These came from a Ranch Dog Mold, over from marlinowners, that throws a 430gr lead alloy bullet. These weigh 295gr, about 68% of a lead alloy bullet.

I have no idea how accurate they might be. I think I'll melt the whole pound of solder and see how many I get. There's some loss of weight due to the flux in it.

I have some milk jugs set up with wet sand in them that I'll use as a bullet stop, after the bullet goes through a milk jug full of water first, testing for expansion. I made this up to test the TSX bullets I modified for the 375 WIn.

I'll load up some of these and test them out when I test the TSX bullets.

One thing I'll make sure of is that they are lubed well. I shudder to think of solder getting melted into the rifling on it's way down the barrel.
any suggestions for a starting load. I figure I could use reg load data, but I guess I'm looking for ways to control the "leading".

As most of ya know I'm only doing this cause of the lead ban here in Kalipornia. Even if they work out really well, the "state" still has to approve them.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:55 pm

Give it the sledge hammer test for hardness and to see how well they hold together.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 1:58 pm

Good idea, BUT THEY'RE SO PURTY!!!!

Maybe I'll give one a whack and see.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:01 pm

What kind of metal is lead free solder?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:12 pm

Jason,
The label says, "Tin, copper and selenium"

sore sholder
I don't have a sledge, but a I have a long handled framing hammer. It passed that test. I didn't hit extremely hard (the wife is sleeping upstairs) but hard enough to make it squat and put deep impressions of the face of the hammer in it.

No cracks or breakage.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:15 pm

handirifle wrote:Jason,
The label says, "Tin, copper and selenium"

Interesting. It sounds like a type of bronze, assuming the selenium content is minimal.

How much for a pound of that stuff?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:15 pm

handirifle wrote:Jason,
The label says, "Tin, copper and selenium"

sore sholder
I don't have a sledge, but a I have a long handled framing hammer. It passed that test. I didn't hit extremely hard (the wife is sleeping upstairs) but hard enough to make it squat and put deep impressions of the face of the hammer in it.

No cracks or breakage.

Should work well. I would give them Grizz's water jug test next. No cracks is a good thing.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:18 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
Should work well. I would give them Grizz's water jug test next. No cracks is a good thing.

What's that?

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:23 pm

How hard do you suppose they'll be on a barrel?

kooz · Post by **kooz** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:29 pm

That's probably going to work out to be some pretty expensive bullets. Might be a good idea to mix that 1lb of solder with a bunch of wheel weights.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:32 pm

kooz wrote:That's probably going to work out to be some pretty expensive bullets. Might be a good idea to mix that 1lb of solder with a bunch of wheel weights.

They can't in California anymore.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:39 pm

As another Kalifornian I am very interested in your results. Since these bullets are light for their size, they would be great practice rounds for the Barnes TSX caliber equivalent. Since copper doesn't weigh as much as lead, Barnes bullets are "long" for their weight....just as your bullets are. I don't know the cost of your non lead cast boolits but I don't think they will be $1.00 a piece like the Barnes TSX bullets are. This California Condor thing is just the tip of the iceberg. I bet dollars to donuts that the whole state will go lead free in the future. Also so goes Kalifornia, so goes the nation. I wonder if the Silvex core that Barnes uses could be cast as a bullet in and of itself. Too bad Belt Mountain can't pay Barnes a royalty to use Silvex instead of lead in their excellent Punch Bullets. I will use copper bullets in all my woods guns that are legal for hunting since I don't want to check a GPS to make sure I haven't wandered into a lead free zone. I don't think they can force me to carry non lead bullets in my Birds Head Vaquero since it isn't a legal hunting handgun. It has a 3.75" barrel and the minimum is 4" for hunting. But I suppose if I were to finish off a wounded animal with it I could be fined for using a lead bullet. @%#&*# liberal politicians!

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:43 pm

Jason
Not sure, I suppose that depends on tha actual hardness of the bullet. Since tin and copper are both already used in bullets, should be normal wear. I don't know anything about selenium.

Kooz
What Jason said.

The last time I looked at lead free solder it was about $6 a lb. If I get 35 bullets (700gr = 1 ounce) then that's only $.17 each.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:49 pm

handirifle wrote:Jason
Not sure, I suppose that depends on tha actual hardness of the bullet. Since tin and copper are both already used in bullets, should be normal wear. I don't know anything about selenium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium

Looks like that can be toxic as well.

I'd bet there is a very small amount in the alloy, though.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:54 pm

Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:58 pm

handirifle wrote:Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.

Yeah, pretty much everything is toxic in the right quantity.

I'll be very interested to see how your bullets perform. Good luck.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri May 09, 2008 2:59 pm

I found this doing a quick search of the internet:

M.G. Chemicals no clean Lead-Free Solder was designed with Sn/Ag/Cu (Tin/Silver/Copper) alloys as a lead-free alternative for the standard Tin and Lead solder. These alloys conform to the impurity requirements of J-Std-006 and RoHS. Use this solder anywhere you would use normal solder. 96.3% tin, 0.7% copper and 3% silver

IIRC Penn Bullets uses 2% Silver in their high velocity cast bullets ie .452 bullets for the 454 Casull vs their regular alloy for 45 Colt bullets. So your cast bullets using lead free solder of this formula should be non leading in the bore especially with a gas check. I believe you should have no problem getting your bullets certified as lead free since the solder meets the impurity standards set above. I am not sure what brand you used but if it is considered lead free by one gov't agency then the alloy should stand as lead free for the CA DFG Commission.

TomD · Post by **TomD** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:18 pm

Nice.

How would you deal with a wildlife officer? It's not like steel shot where they could be tested with a magnet, or like copper where they look a lot different.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:23 pm

TomD wrote:Nice.

How would you deal with a wildlife officer? It's not like steel shot where they could be tested with a magnet, or like copper where they look a lot different.

That's easy. Carry one of those "lead paint" testers with you. It should work for bullets too.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:34 pm

I thought a little ahead of you on this one. IF POSSIBLE, I think getting a special mold made, that imprints a bullet brand or logo into the tip of the bullet to make it easily identifyable to anyone with a current list of those approved brands.

Not sure if a mold maker can do this or not, but would be worth it to find out.

Something outside the cartridge casing would have to be visable to the field officer. Even then, he might take one to have it tested. Seems that's part of the law.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:38 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
TomD wrote:Nice.

How would you deal with a wildlife officer? It's not like steel shot where they could be tested with a magnet, or like copper where they look a lot different.
That's easy. Carry one of those "lead paint" testers with you. It should work for bullets too.

I suppose the Game Wardens will be carrying test kits with them like the Drug Enforcement guys do. "Sir, let me see your hunting license, tags and one of your loaded rounds for testing!" I also think they would test the one in the chamber, as you could carry copper bulleted rounds in a loop carrier and lead bullets in the gun.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:45 pm

No doubt that's how it will go. I hear guys talk about never seeing wardens when they're out. I'm here to tell ya, almost every year, I get checked by one. Never fails.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:50 pm

Jason_W wrote:
handirifle wrote:Jason
Not sure, I suppose that depends on tha actual hardness of the bullet. Since tin and copper are both already used in bullets, should be normal wear. I don't know anything about selenium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium

Looks like that can be toxic as well.

I'd bet there is a very small amount in the alloy, though.

I hear it's not too healthy if you are shot with it either.

Handi, I would just carry some sort of copy of the product information. If your going to that much trouble, seems any reasonable person would accept that as some sort of good faith.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:52 pm

If I do these, I'll get them certified and WILL carry papers.

"May I see your papers?"

Does this sound like something we've heard before?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 09, 2008 3:53 pm

handirifle wrote:If I do these, I'll get them certified and WILL carry papers.

"May I see your papers?"

Does this sound like something we've heard before?

"Just doing my job sir."

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri May 09, 2008 5:00 pm

handirifle wrote:Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.

The concern would be while you are casting for YOUR health so make sure you have good ventilation, selenium is bad news.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 09, 2008 5:09 pm

GANJIRO wrote:
handirifle wrote:Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.
The concern would be while you are casting for YOUR health so make sure you have good ventilation, selenium is bad news.

The amounts used must not be toxic, or we'd have a lot of dead or deathly ill plumbers. I've soldered a lot of pipe myself with no ill affects thus far.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Fri May 09, 2008 5:23 pm

I see that solder has silver in it. Should be effective on werewolves.

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Fri May 09, 2008 6:42 pm

Its not 700grains= 1 oz. Its 437 gr per oz. You would get 23 bullets per pound, or around $0.27 each. Guess you could carry a MSDS sheet showing what is in the boolit.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:00 pm

Tin makes them SHINE!! These are 30:1 lead/tin.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:24 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
GANJIRO wrote:
handirifle wrote:Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.
The concern would be while you are casting for YOUR health so make sure you have good ventilation, selenium is bad news.
The amounts used must not be toxic, or we'd have a lot of dead or deathly ill plumbers. I've soldered a lot of pipe myself with no ill affects thus far.

I've also done a whole lot of copper pipe sweating but even when roughing out whole bathrooms I don't go thru several pounds of soldier at once like when casting bullets and this would be my concern the higher concentrations encountered in a short time when casting compared to sweating a few copper fittings in a day.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:36 pm

handirifle,

Unless I missed it, you didn't say what caliber those bullets were. And I may have missed the answers but I have some questions.

OK, according to your scales the lead free solder cast out at about 30% less than lead. So if I wanted a 255gr .45 Colt bullet I'd have to start out with a mold that normally cast out around 325grs or so.

Now, those bullets would be real long for their weight. What my questions would be are these.

What would that do to the BC of the lighter but longer bullet? Or am I thinking of the SD? I always get those two confused.

And what would that do for the down range performance of the bullet on game animals? ..... or on stability at longer ranges?

So:
>I know where to get the solder.
>I know where to get a new uncontaminated lead pot and ladle.
>What I need to know is what temp to cast them at, can I use my camp stove to cast on like I do wheel weights?
>AND ... What mold would be the best to get to try this out?

This is a very interesting subject, but in reality I doubt we shooters would be allowed to get away with it for long. As soon as the antis found out what we are doing they'd come up with some others bullscat law to interfere with us.

Joe

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri May 09, 2008 7:37 pm

handirifle wrote:I thought a little ahead of you on this one. IF POSSIBLE, I think getting a special mold made, that imprints a bullet brand or logo into the tip of the bullet to make it easily identifyable to anyone with a current list of those approved brands.
Not sure if a mold maker can do this or not, but would be worth it to find out.
Something outside the cartridge casing would have to be visable to the field officer. Even then, he might take one to have it tested. Seems that's part of the law.

Oh, yea, introduce microstamping into the casting market. Fear where you tread there.

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Fri May 09, 2008 8:04 pm

Tell the warden it's a mixture of tin and mercury and see if he/she has a sense of humor!

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Fri May 09, 2008 10:35 pm

Bullets from silver solder! Right!
They are almost all tin. Over 90% in the alloy.Probly more like 97%.
As I believe I mentioned to Handi earlier, I developed a tin bullet from silver solder for a special super-light recoil load out of my Milady's Blackhawk. They do drop weight by a third from lead cast bullets, and they also shrink less when they freeze [cool to solidity].
The load I developed was a shortened .38sp with a very small powder charge, and I needed to reduce the case capacity with a longer bullet, but could not increase the bullets weight.
I started with a mold that drops out .358 lead bullets weighing 150gr or so. The tin melted a lot like the lead, and casts well as a bullet, but it dropped out measuring .360 in diameter. Too fat to push through the sizing die!
In a stroke of genius, I got a mold for a 147gr 9mm boattail bullet, which was exactly the right length to reduce the case capacity, with out pushing into the thick part of the case wall. And since the mold was cut to drop .356 lead bullets, the tin slug came out at .3585, which I sized down to .357 and the final weight is 105gr.
The trick was to take a .38 case cut down to .750, seat a heavy bullet and stout charge, and load it into the 9mm chambers of the other cylinder the gun came with. When they fire off, they fire-form to fit the tapered 9mm chamber. Then they are ready to load with the light load, and the new round is born. I called it the .38-L9. The "L" is the first letter of her name, Larisa. It's a sort of redneck rendering of the 9mm Federal that no longer exists, and this version works in the Ruger Blackhawk.
The load works right with 2.0 gr of power pistol, or 1.8gr of Trail Boss. It feels literally like a .22, and it's out of the same gun that can shoot a full house .357magnum load, if required to.
I built this load for her because she has bad tendonitis and arthritis, and can't shoot normal power loads for very long before she has to quit. This load lets her shoot for quite a while with her favourite gun.
Remember that tin is the main ingredient in pewter, and as such, is well established as strong enough for things like belt buckles and sherriff's badges. It's the poor folks silver. It's harder than lead, but not a lot.
I haven't found any bore fouling in her blackhawk, but it's not a powerful load. I also don't know if there are any bore solvents that will dissolve tin. Haven't needed it yet. Cross fingers.
I get about 33 of those bullets from one spool of solder, which used to be about 6 bucks. Expect that to rise, maybe even double. They are the size of a 147gr 9mm bullet, to give you an idea of how much.

Man, long winded!

Sorry for the info dump, but you guys did ask

Gryphon

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri May 09, 2008 11:51 pm

Lots of good replies.

Will try to answer questions/concerns.
Ganjiro
I wouldn't cast these in an enclosed room/area, any more than lead. I didn't mean I would ignore safety, but just wasn't concerned any more than when casting lead.

I do appreciate any and all warnings though.

gryphon
You did mention that and I never put 2 and 2 together. Thanks for the reminder. Wonder what would remove tin???? WOnder how hard I can push these before they shed metal?

I was please to see it's somewhat ductile and not brittle.

Griff,
Point taken. Maybe another approach. Hmmmm

J Miller
Like the all copper bullets they are longer for the weight, than lead and it does negatively affect the BC. Caliber is .458, but after reading gryphons post I need to measure them. The gas checks are snug, that's for sure.

I'm guessing down range performance will be lessened, but not sure how much. What'd be nice, is to go to the range, with another shooter, that also has a chrone and see what the real velocity loss is. A LOT can be learned from that.

Thunder
Thanks, not sure why the 700 stuck in my head.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:08 am

handirifle,

J Miller
Like the all copper bullets they are longer for the weight, than lead and it does negatively affect the BC. Caliber is .458, but after reading gryphons post I need to measure them. The gas checks are snug, that's for sure.

I'm guessing down range performance will be lessened, but not sure how much. What'd be nice, is to go to the range, with another shooter, that also has a chrone and see what the real velocity loss is. A LOT can be learned from that.

Are these bullets too hard to be sized down to say, .454".
And are you going to tumble lube them, or use a lube / sizer on them?
What I was thinking of is trying them in my .45 Colt rifles. Both my Marlin and Winchester have quite a bit of leeway about OAL.

Joe

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat May 10, 2008 9:31 am

Have you tried the shatter test yet?

I'd be interested in seeing the results of that.

I think if it's not too difficult to get the communist approval, that I'd just go for using the silver solder as opposed to specific bullets if that makes any sense. I don't know how the form is set-up, but making the use of silver solder for casting approved would be the best for the shooter/hunter.

Unfortunately, your efforts will only affect a few gun nuts - the vast majority of hunters will not bother. These are the folks that only use factory ammo and many will limit or stop their hunting over the increase in cost and harassment.

Of course, a business could be formed to provide these bullets in loaded ammo for leverguns. Pick up the slack and voids of Barnes. Make it a web site order. I guess special licensing is needed for that too.

At some point, we will all have to do something about this. I wish everybody with money and a love for freedom would move out of Kalifornia and leave it to rot. And rot it will without a tax base.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat May 10, 2008 10:32 am

handirifle -

Have you pretty much given up on cutting down the copper bullets from Barnes?

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sat May 10, 2008 1:32 pm

Modoc
Not in the least. I have an almost complete box of cut down 270gr bullets that ended up being 210gr (Gen 3). I'm convinced they are the BEST option, but nowhere in the least are they the most affordable.

If you knew me you'd know my mind doesn't sit still too long. Sonetimes that good, sometimes not.

I measured this bullet and it comes out .462", so it will HAVE to be lube sized.

OSOK
I took one to the garage floor and whacked the stuff out of it with a framing hammer. The body bent and the nose has DEEP impressions of the little diamonds on the face of the hammer, but zero cracks.

This isn't silver solder, THAT would cost more than the Barnes'. It's plain old lead free solder.

I did this to see if it was something others could do at home, but seing the F&G has to approve them, they might start charging a fee for the test, if they're flooded with these.

J Miller,
Don't know, yet! Since these are oversize, I'll most likely have to size tham to .458. Will let you know.

Today is filled with other thing, for me. Have to attend a wedding in a couple hours, then this evening my daughters boyfriend (he's 30, she's 27, and maybe my future son-in-law

) will be in his pro debut fight of mixed martial arts (cage fighting) Not my cup of tea, but he is a REALLY nice guy, good to my daughter, and is one DRIVEN individual.

Martial arts has been a part of our lives for many years, so we're not strangers to it. Both my twin sons (23) are black belts, and I have several years of it back in my service days, and some again, about 7-8 years ago.

Anyway, today is full up.

, then tomorrow, is church and back to work at 3PM

. That's till Jan 3, 2009. Then I retire.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat May 10, 2008 1:47 pm

handirifle,

Have a great weekend.

The only thing I know about martial arts is to not p.o. somebody who is skilled in it.
And I really enjoy watching Jackie Chan.

Joe

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Sat May 10, 2008 8:53 pm

I can see one useful aspect to tin bullets not yet mentioned, I think. A cast tin bullet shares common volume/weight proportions with copper, or a lot closer than lead anyway. It would be a much cheaper alternative to those looking to work up loads designed to use the Barnes copper, with the longer-for-weight proportions. You could cast a tin version of a Barnes shape and work up your load specs pretty close, then just buy a few of the copper to do final tweaking for your max accuracy.
I can also see a market for custom molds that cast smaller, to accommodate the reduced shrinkage of the tin out of the mold. I'd get with Ranch Dog and tell 'em I want them to make a mold that reproduces a Barnes shape I like, but to cut it underwide by 'x' thousandths ['tween 2 and 4]. That would give me a bullet that would fake the Barnes well enough for load workup. You might even get 'em to make you a plinking bullet mold, and just shoot 'em into a trap

Or izzat overthinkin' it

Gryphon

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat May 10, 2008 10:24 pm

Handirifle,

Something to consider... I've been reading over on castboolits about casting and shooting cast for my new .223. Beagle on cast bullets has written a good bit on the subject. He actually got his best accuracy out of a hollow point version of one of the bullets he was using. The suspected reason might be that the center of gravity of the bullet was shifted rearward. I know your trying to keep your weight up, but you might want to keep that little factoid in mind as well.

Happy Trails and God Bless,

Rusty <><

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Sun May 11, 2008 1:28 am

Gryphon
Good ideas. Might just do that, maybe incorporating the idea that Rusty suggested in the post below yours, ie, the hollow point.

I think I'll cast and shoot a few of these and see how they do before hollowing them out though.

Gryphon Black · Post by **Gryphon Black** » Sun May 11, 2008 8:41 pm

An excellent plan. That'll give you some hard data.
I seem to recall that molds can be had with an insert set, allowing a given bullet to be cast with or without a hollow point. That'd sure make it handi, huh? Must cost a coupla bucks though...

I'm new to all this, so I don't really know beans about it

This R&D stuff sure is fun, though!

NonPCnraRN · Post by **NonPCnraRN** » Sun May 11, 2008 10:22 pm

Too bad you can't have a mold made with a hollow center core. Then you could insert a precut tungsten rod to give it strength and weight. Or maybe you could have a mold made that holds the rod as the tin is poured in. Too bad Barnes doesn't license out their Silvex formula to commercial bullet casters since they aren't in the cast bullet business.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:42 am

Yea it would be nice to insert a plug of tungsten into the base, to bring the weight back to lead levels, but looking around it looks like a .250" rod (1/4") dia at 12" long runs from $24 to $38, so it's too expensive.

Right now momma has my plate full of honey do's, but when they're done, a casting I will go.

gryphon
Me neither, but I'm a learnin'.

45Jack · Post by **45Jack** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:17 am

Jason_W wrote:
handirifle wrote:Toxidity (sp?) isn't the issue. It's lead, so it doesn't matter to me. Copper is toxic too.
Yeah, pretty much everything is toxic in the right quantity.

I'll be very interested to see how your bullets perform. Good luck.

They're all toxic at the right velocity.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:24 am

We could go from lead poisoning to advanced tin ingestion