Rifle safeties; how "safe"??

[Tactical Lever]

Been having a discussion on "do it all" survival type rifles. Kind of an end of the world zompocalypse type situation. I suggested a lever gun (naturally) would be a great carrying gun, and quick into action without having a loaded chamber. Or at least a lot safer being a "hammer gun", when doing chores or traveling. He suggested that carrying a semi-auto with one in the chamber at all times was the way to go. I couldn't imagine it, and would never try to rely on just a safety, when putting the gun in the truck with my family, or having it under a sleeping bag when camping outside. Is there any safety that you'd trust?

I kinda thought he was on drugs... Or am I??

[Sixgun]

I think safeties work as well as the operator. In other words, no matter what safety you have, you have to be consciously aware of it. And in a real world, nobody can keep their mind on everything at the same time.

In battle, or condition red, the good old Garand/M-14 safety ....or no safety, is the best.

In hunting, about any good safety works well....but still should not be trusted....I've had 788's go bang when they should not have.

With non combatants nearby and in condition white, an empty chamber would be the way to go.

A 1911 looks dangerous when cocked and locked.....it's not but I still would not leave it like that in the console if I was just cruising around. Probably why I've always like double action revolvers.----6

[piller]

Safeties are mechanical devices made by humans. Anything made by humans can fail. The simplest are usually the most reliable and easiest to fix. I do not totally trust all safeties. When my Dad was in the Air Force, an AP accidentally killed himself with a 1911 that was cocked and locked. He threw it at the desk Sergeant and it hit the edge of the desk just right to make the firing pin move and set off the cartridge. The hole was in his forehead. The hard throw overrode the safeties and killed the AP. No safety is perfect.

[jnyork]

The very best safety is the one between your ears.

[gamekeeper]

When test firing old shotguns was a part of my job we always started with the safety on and pulling the triggers on loaded chambers to see if the safety worked . It made me flinch every time, even though the guns only occasionally went off.... I have never trusted safeties 100% since.
Often when shooting in company, others have remarked on the lack of a safety on my uncocked hammer gun but we're happy that their hammerless guns were perfectly safe because the safety catch said so.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

My father had an old GI issued 1911 that had a particularly bad quirk. Cocked and Locked was in no way safe. Squeezing the trigger with a normal pull weight would discharge it. The safety was clearly broken in some way internally.

[hayabusa]

The French MAS 36 has no safety and when I am out with it my finger is by the trigger guard so as to keep anything from pulling the trigger. If the bolt handle is almost up to come back and eject and you pull the trigger the bolt handle will drop into place and fire! Makes me be very safty conscious.

[GunnyMack]

Push the safety off on a 10/22, if dropped hard enough to cycle the action it will also fire. We did it with blanks- quite disheartening!!

Agreed the best safety is the jerk behind the stock!

[J Miller]

I do not totally trust any safety devise, however when I carried a 1911 I carried it cocked and locked. I and my gunsmith made sure the safety devices were totally functional.
Otherwise when I'm out in the boonies hiking or hunting I normally carry my rifles with an empty chamber. Regardless of action type it's not hard to chamber a round when needed.

Joe

[Larkbill]

The closest thing to a safety I would "trust" is the one on my Swedish Mauser that cams the firing pin back from the sear and locks in place with a piece of fine Swedish steel. That was made by a human. Over 100 years ago. Oh never mind.

[AJMD429]

IF a 1911 is carried in a proper holster with leather between the hammer and firing pin, I trust it. When you've got some spring tension and a lot of potential energy, if (and I should say when) the safety fails, the gun can fire. On the other hand, with an exposed hammer that is not cocked, there is no potential energy waiting to hit a primer, and the gun is far safer in the event of a mechanical failure of some kind. Since it takes but a fraction of a second to thumb back a hammer, and it is done with the primary hand operating the weapon, so requires only one hand, I really do think exposed hammers in a design safe to carry with the hammer down can be ideal.

However for my primary CCW gun, I prefer a Taurus PT-92 because even though I prefer 45 ACP, the design of the Taurus has the sweep-down Browning style safety like a 1911 but allows the gun to safely be carried hammer down, without having to even thumb the hammer back for the first shot. All you do is pull the trigger. The PT-92 I have has fired many thousands of rounds without fail, and although 30 years ago when I first purchased it I was not enamored with the 9 mm as a defensive round, modern loadings have rendered it quite adequate, plus it is widely available for not much more than 22 long rifle ammunition. If they made the same design in 45 ACP, I probably would carry it, but in a 'zombie apocalypse' or 'survival' scenario, the 9mm might be a more widely available and easy to carry in bulk ammunition.

[Pete44ru]

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I would think that a manual safety is a non-issue with DA revolvers and/or DAO autoloading pistols.

For BA rifles, I like to hunt with the chamber loaded and the bolt handle raised.

For exposed hammer leverguns, I ALWAYS keep the thumb of my trigger hand wedged in between the FP and the hammer face.



.

[octagon]

My trio opened an acoustic concert years ago with a fella famous in the Texas scene, real nice fella. Years later He went to help some neighbors out with some hogs who were eating goats. While transferring rifles from one truck to another one slipped out of the unzipped gun bag, discharging and killing him.

Another guy I knew was crossing a fence and blew his calf off one leg with a 20g. He had been a promising pole vaulter.
A big fella I know was shot in the butt by his wife who was in the back seat when one of those Remington safeties failed.

In all cases, an unchambered gun would have saved life and limb. I chamber one before firing, it has kept my family of five safe so far. They depend on me to teach them these things.

[AJMD429]

For CCW the gun design should facilitate chambered carry, (ideally with no tensioned spring on a striker or firing pin, in my opinion).

For target shooting, there shouldn't need to be a round in the chamber until the shooter is in position and the gun is actually being shot.

Same for (deer)stand-hunting (learn to chamber quietly or get a quieter gun).

Stalk-hunting most game requires either a very quiet-to-chamber gun, or one you can chamber and walk around with that is almost impossible to make fire when the boot slides on the log under the snow and half a second later you slide downhill head-first, gun grabbed by brush, and smacked against the tree that stops you while you only have hold of it by the scope. BTDT. That is why I like lever actions for that. To fire my Marlins with their DCBS (dreaded crossbolt safety), the hammer has to be cocked AND the safety bumped off, and the trigger bumped. At the end of my slide, the gun was pointed at my foot, the safety bumped off, and a thick branch was against the trigger, but the hammer hadn't cocked, and the lever had very slightly opened so perhaps that would have blocked the two-piece firing pin for failure to be locked-up (that is, IF the lever opened before the trigger was 'pulled' by the branch...).

The other arena is of course practice sessions and games for self defense, which requires all the same stuff and precautions as CCW, and more (because there are typically more bystanders at the range, and because 'dry firing' isn't always dry, or people can mix up their laser-rounds with real ones, etc.).

I rarely shoot at ranges because I see such sloppy gun handling. At home if a guest does that I can ask them to leave, at least.

[Rusty]

When Peter Hathaway Capstick was a PH as the story goes he once had a safety fail and nearly hurt someone. His practice ever since with a bolt action was to load a round, and with the safety off pull triger with the bolt handle in the straight up position. While keeping the trigger all the way to the read he would slowly lower the bolt handle. As the handle was lowered the action would slowly de-cock it's self. When the bolt handle was fully lowered the rifle was safe. When game was spotted instead of flipping a safety or chambering a round which both can make noise, all the shooter had to do was raise the bolt handle, then lower it to the full down position and fire.

[Griff]

I don't "trust" any safety. But, I have to rely on them from time to time. Maintenance, inspection, repair as needed and diligence in all the foregoing allow me to "warily rely" on them.

[mickbr]

I never really use safeties on guns, I don't pay much attention to them. I dont use semi-autos though. The only safety I am meticulous with is my crossbow, once the string is back under 260lbs strain I dont want it letting go while I am feeding an arrow into it.

[Tactical Lever]

When Peter Hathaway Capstick was a PH as the story goes he once had a safety fail and nearly hurt someone. His practice ever since with a bolt action was to load a round, and with the safety off pull triger with the bolt handle in the straight up position. While keeping the trigger all the way to the read he would slowly lower the bolt handle. As the handle was lowered the action would slowly de-cock it's self. When the bolt handle was fully lowered the rifle was safe. When game was spotted instead of flipping a safety or chambering a round which both can make noise, all the shooter had to do was raise the bolt handle, then lower it to the full down position and fire.

I used to carry like that, and considered it safe, until I learned that the firing pin on bolt actions (most?) rests on the primer with some pressure on it. I believe some have made the rifles fire by dropping them butt stock first.

[Trailboss]

I grew up with a family that taught safe firearm handling. We treated every weapon as if it was loaded at all times, no exception. Over 45 years I witnessed one unexpected discharge. It planted in the ground without coming close to anyone. A safety is fine, but it's better if in addition to the safety, the firearms are pointed in a safe direction at all times.

[GunnyMack]

When Peter Hathaway Capstick was a PH as the story goes he once had a safety fail and nearly hurt someone. His practice ever since with a bolt action was to load a round, and with the safety off pull triger with the bolt handle in the straight up position. While keeping the trigger all the way to the read he would slowly lower the bolt handle. As the handle was lowered the action would slowly de-cock it's self. When the bolt handle was fully lowered the rifle was safe. When game was spotted instead of flipping a safety or chambering a round which both can make noise, all the shooter had to do was raise the bolt handle, then lower it to the full down position and fire.

I used to carry like that, and considered it safe, until I learned that the firing pin on bolt actions (most?) rests on the primer with some pressure on it. I believe some have made the rifles fire by dropping them butt stock first.

You are right, that is NOT a safe way to carry!

[Larkbill]

When Peter Hathaway Capstick was a PH as the story goes he once had a safety fail and nearly hurt someone. His practice ever since with a bolt action was to load a round, and with the safety off pull triger with the bolt handle in the straight up position. While keeping the trigger all the way to the read he would slowly lower the bolt handle. As the handle was lowered the action would slowly de-cock it's self. When the bolt handle was fully lowered the rifle was safe. When game was spotted instead of flipping a safety or chambering a round which both can make noise, all the shooter had to do was raise the bolt handle, then lower it to the full down position and fire.

I used to carry like that, and considered it safe, until I learned that the firing pin on bolt actions (most?) rests on the primer with some pressure on it. I believe some have made the rifles fire by dropping them butt stock first.

You are right, that is NOT a safe way to carry!

What a horrible idea! It denies any knowledge of the mechanical workings of a bolt action. Not to mention it won't work with any of the Mauser type actions that cock on closing. I wouldn't be surprised if some actions wouldn't have enough spring pressure to fire without dropping.

[Rusty]

When Peter Hathaway Capstick was a PH as the story goes he once had a safety fail and nearly hurt someone. His practice ever since with a bolt action was to load a round, and with the safety off pull triger with the bolt handle in the straight up position. While keeping the trigger all the way to the read he would slowly lower the bolt handle. As the handle was lowered the action would slowly de-cock it's self. When the bolt handle was fully lowered the rifle was safe. When game was spotted instead of flipping a safety or chambering a round which both can make noise, all the shooter had to do was raise the bolt handle, then lower it to the full down position and fire.

I used to carry like that, and considered it safe, until I learned that the firing pin on bolt actions (most?) rests on the primer with some pressure on it. I believe some have made the rifles fire by dropping them butt stock first.

You are right, that is NOT a safe way to carry!

What a horrible idea! It denies any knowledge of the mechanical workings of a bolt action. Not to mention it won't work with any of the Mauser type actions that cock on closing. I wouldn't be surprised if some actions wouldn't have enough spring pressure to fire without dropping.

Sorry, but it does work on a Mauser. If you pull the trigger on a Mauser while lowering the bolt you can watch the rear portion of the bolt slowly lower as if it were ridding on a cam. I do it on my Ruger 77s.
As was said before, the only real safety is safe gun handing in the first place.

[Tactical Lever]

I used to carry like that, and considered it safe, until I learned that the firing pin on bolt actions (most?) rests on the primer with some pressure on it. I believe some have made the rifles fire by dropping them butt stock first.

You are right, that is NOT a safe way to carry!

What a horrible idea! It denies any knowledge of the mechanical workings of a bolt action. Not to mention it won't work with any of the Mauser type actions that cock on closing. I wouldn't be surprised if some actions wouldn't have enough spring pressure to fire without dropping.

Sorry, but it does work on a Mauser. If you pull the trigger on a Mauser while lowering the bolt you can watch the rear portion of the bolt slowly lower as if it were ridding on a cam. I do it on my Ruger 77s.
As was said before, the only real safety is safe gun handing in the first place.

Nobody said you can't decock a bolt that way, but with a Mauser M38, and probably M98, they are cock on closing. So Capstick wouldn't be able to lift the bolt handle to cock the rifle in those cases. The Rugers it would work on as they are cock on open. But then either way you still have a firing pin pushed into the primer with spring tension on it.

[GunnyMack]

You are right, that is NOT a safe way to carry!

What a horrible idea! It denies any knowledge of the mechanical workings of a bolt action. Not to mention it won't work with any of the Mauser type actions that cock on closing. I wouldn't be surprised if some actions wouldn't have enough spring pressure to fire without dropping.

Sorry, but it does work on a Mauser. If you pull the trigger on a Mauser while lowering the bolt you can watch the rear portion of the bolt slowly lower as if it were ridding on a cam. I do it on my Ruger 77s.
As was said before, the only real safety is safe gun handing in the first place.

Nobody said you can't decock a bolt that way, but with a Mauser M38, and probably M98, they are cock on closing. So Capstick wouldn't be able to lift the bolt handle to cock the rifle in those cases. The Rugers it would work on as they are cock on open. But then either way you still have a firing pin pushed into the primer with spring tension on it.

EXACTLY!

[piller]

Remington 700 is cock on opening, I think. For storage of an empty rifle, I pull the trigger and cautiously lower the bolt. Does the Rem 700 firing pin protrude on doing this? I haven't done it on a live round. I am guessing that it probably does protrude under a little spring tension.

[Tactical Lever]

Remington 700 is cock on opening, I think. For storage of an empty rifle, I pull the trigger and cautiously lower the bolt. Does the Rem 700 firing pin protrude on doing this? I haven't done it on a live round. I am guessing that it probably does protrude under a little spring tension.

I believe that all the modern guns on cock on open. And I believe that all the pins protrude a bit as well. Just saw an example of how a mark was left on a primer by doing this. I might try decocking a couple bolts on a round to see if there is any kind of mark left. Could try it with some putty and a case, too. Maybe I'll even try to do some testing to see if it is indeed easy to discharge a round by intentionally giving the buttstock a good whack.

Don't really have to decock the bolt for storage. Actually less spring "wear" by leaving it compressed. Though I kind of do it out of habit, and when I pick up a rifle, I can see it's not cocked. Makes me feel better I guess, even though I'll probably open the bolt, cocking it, and then lower the pin again...

[J Miller]

I have three bolt action center fire rifles. Two Enfields and my Marlin MR-7, The Enfields cock on closing so the bolt can be closed without cocking by pulling the trigger as the bolt is lowered. But the firing pin will be in contact with the primer unless the firing pin is retracted by pulling the bolt cocking piece back to the first notch. Not a safe thing to do with a live round under the firing pin.
The only safe way to carry one of these is either with an empty chamber or with the manual safety fully engaged.

The Marlin cocks on opening but can be decocked by pulling the trigger as the bolt is closed. I believe that will leave the firing pin in contact with the primer and therefore is unsafe.
This rifle design has the Winchester style three position wing safety.
Forward is shoot.
Center is safe but the bolt can be operated.
Rear is safe and the bolt is locked.

As far as I am concerned carrying a bolt action rifle with the bolt decocked on a live round is a catastrophe looking for a place to happen.

Carry it with the round in the chamber and the safety engaged, or carry it with an empty chamber.
At any rate one should practice with their rifle of choice until they are proficient with it and avoid unsafe practices.

Joe

[AJMD429]

"Don't really have to decock the bolt for storage. Actually less spring "wear" by leaving it compressed."
That doesn't make sense to me, but I'm willing to listen to why....

[Trailboss]

"Don't really have to decock the bolt for storage. Actually less spring "wear" by leaving it compressed."
That doesn't make sense to me, but I'm willing to listen to why....

Doc, as I understand the engineering behind the "leave it compressed" theory is this: Springs don't wear or move closer to failure by leaving them compressed. Rather springs can remain under tension for an indefinite period of time without wear or deterioration. It is the compressing and uncompressing of a spring that ages or wears the spring, with each spring's life defined by a limited number of cycles. That being said, modern springs are designed to last multiple lifetimes under cycle. It is doubtful that uncocking a modern rifle is going to cause a spring failure before something else fails (including the owner's health).