POLITICS - oil supply conversation

[Grizz]

Remember when I said I'd post a link about our oil reserves when I found it?

I found it:

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazi ... mf_jackrig

Early in is this:

He works for Chevron, and his team is sitting on several new record-breaking discoveries in the Gulf, a region that many geologists believe may have more untapped oil reserves than any other part of the world.

When you combine this oil, which may be less, and could be more, with the oil on the rest of our coasts, and the oil in our interior, including the new finds, with the oil shales and coal, which can be gasified and converted to gasoline, as the nazii did in germany long ago, there is no excuse, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for us to use any other supply of oil.

In my opinion everyone who is thwarting our access is directly culpable for the gas costs they complain about daily.

I know the argument very well, the yabuts want to say it can't come online soon enough to alleviate the currentn market conditions. BUT that's because they don't understand markets. A presidential decree TODAY wouild start a short stamped in the oil markets TODAY that would be aided and abetted by the sauds IMMEDIATLY increasing their output in an effort to thwart the new policy, which would IMMEDIATELY force the longs in the market to sell which would FURTHER decrease the cost of crude oil.

Then we just have to follow thru, commit to build a hundred new refineries and a hundred new nukes.

CAN YOU SAY 50$ OIL? BINGO...

BUT, and the BIG but is this: does America have the WILL TO SURVIVE ?

Curious minds want to know.

[Hobie]

There may not be a national will to survive. We may also be allowing foreigners in to further dilute that will that does still exist.

[sore shoulder]

There may not be a national will to survive. We may also be allowing foreigners in to further dilute that will that does still exist.

Have you been reading the history of the Roman Empire lately?

[alnitak]

What gets my gander is that we had a chance to avoid this thirty years ago, during the last gas crisis. We have the technology -- oil is not the answer. But the greed of Big Oil and the car companies (who will only innovate when forced), has put us in a position of continued reliance on foreign oil as they continually buy up and suppress technologies (battery-, water- and hydrogen-powered vehicles, etc.). As usual, the people are the ones to pay while those companies make billions in profit.

Oil, whether foreign or domestic, is not the answer for any number of reasons -- not renewable, not clean, not cheap to find/process, political dependency on foreign governments, imbalance of trade, etc.. I'd rather see the U.S. Government fund and implement a near-term plan (other than ethanol and planting corn at the expense of food) to eliminate our dependency on oil at all. We have the technology,...however, I doubt we have the vision or will.

[Jason_W]

Even if there are such reserves out there, it's not in the best interest of the oil industry to do anything that will reduce prices. Now that they've found out we'll pay whatever they charge, it's not going down.

In any case, isn't tapping new reserves just prolonging the inevitable? How long before we're right back in the same place we are now? I feel we have to stop looking for quick, short term fixes and come up with something better and longer lasting.

We need a massive R&D program taking an approach similar to the Appollo program. Kennedy declared we would walk on the moon before the end of the sixties, and we need to declare we'll be off of fossile fuels by the end of 2019.

[Jason_W]

What gets my gander is that we had a chance to avoid this thirty years ago, during the last gas crisis. We have the technology -- oil is not the answer. But the greed of Big Oil and the car companies (who will only innovate when forced), has put us in a position of continued reliance on foreign oil as they continually buy up and suppress technologies (battery-, water- and hydrogen-powered vehicles, etc.). As usual, the people are the ones to pay while those companies make billions in profit.

Oil, whether foreign or domestic, is not the answer for any number of reasons -- not renewable, not clean, not cheap to find/process, political dependency on foreign governments, imbalance of trade, etc.. I'd rather see the U.S. Government fund and implement a near-term plan (other than ethanol and planting corn at the expense of food) to eliminate our dependency on oil at all. We have the technology,...however, I doubt we have the vision or will.

You beat me to it.

[Idiot]

Who needs patty oil anyway. I'll jump my pony off my boat and ride to the sunset, turn left at the Rocky Mountains, keel me a bar, render the fat and that's all the oil I need. A warm fire, bisquits, and a stary night - what else does one need. Maybe a little coffee.

[sore shoulder]

Who needs patty oil anyway. I'll jump my pony off my boat and ride to the sunset, turn left at the Rocky Mountains, keel me a bar, render the fat and that's all the oil I need. A warm fire, bisquits, and a stary night - what else does one need. Maybe a little coffee.

You may want to start with a bear license.

[Grizz]

Sounds like the anything-but-oil crowd is crowding in on the anyone-but-bush crowd.

Everything that was stated about what's wrong with oil energy parrots the most left-wing demogogery in America. I guess my suspicion that half the country buys into that leftism is well founded.

Are you aware that those "greedy" oil companies, in the first quarter of 2008, have paid almost THIRTY BILLION DOLLARS into the U.S. treasury. That's money they weren't greedy about. Did you know that their return last year was about 8.5%? I bet you didn't know that. Does that sound greedy to you?

Let's say you had a business and your expenses totalled ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS and after taxes you got to keep $8.50, and someone called you greedy, what would you say then? Cause that's what y'all are doing when you're accusing the oil company of being greedy, you're parroting hillary clinton. And it's rididulous when you look at the facts. So that's what I'm saying, look at the facts.

Oil works. There's enough to supply our needs at our rate of growth for a couple hundred years.

AND IT IS CHEAP.

I just filled up. Traveled that tank of gas for 15-1/2 cents per mile.

You cannot haul yourself and your family and your gear to destinations of your choosing for any less money. It's still a bargain. There is nothing that will duplicate that performance that cheaply. Nothing but oil.

Not to mention all the plastic products we all use every day.

Now, since we can get a couple hundred years of breathing room and since we can stop funding jihadis with our petro-dollars, we have the time and opportunity to come up with the next best thing, whatever that might be. Cold fusion in every car? Hydrogen fired cars? Whatever.

The theory that all you need is windmills and solar panels is fatally flawed. The other theory that we can just ignore all the mineral wealth we already are sitting on is also fatally flawed.

The idea of using what we do have to make us independent of our enemies and to bypass that technology is a great one, and we should pursue it like we pursued nukes in WWII and the moon landings in the sixtys. We are still reaping the benefits of those efforts.

But to crab about oil companies, as though we don't want or need or use their products, well, that's just childish, and that's what it sounds like.

Grizz

[J Miller]

Grizz,

Back in 73/74 when we had the last FAKE oil shortage I watched as gas went from below 50 cents per gallon, available everywhere, to non existent. I watched as stations closed up and sat unused. Then as the gas prices went up to around 75 cents per gallon I watched as every single closed gas station magically opened the next day. No lines of oil tankers filling them up, no delay while the oil companies transported it, the darn gas was already in the tanks. The oil companies were just waiting for the prices to go up.

That was then, and to this day I believe there was a nationwide, industry wide conspiracy to control and raise the prices of gasoline and petroleum in general. But it bit the oil industry and the U.S. consumers in the @$$.
Because that was when the govt began radically interfering with the oil companies. Bogus taxes on profits, restrictions, don't drill here, don't drill there, buy from over seas ect ect.

Our fuel problem as you know is right in DC. No where else. The problem is the leftists that call themselves DEMOCRATS. They want to cripple this country because once crippled they can control us.
AS LONG AS WE ARE FREE TO COME AND GO AS WE SEE FIT, THEY CANNOT CONTROL US.

You might as well take a hand full of Excedrin because you are going to get a headache from beating your head against the wall. And that is what you are doing trying to tell some people the truth.

Joe

[Jason_W]

Sorry to be "that guy" in the crowd, but I have to ask:

1. From a business standpoint, why would the oil industry invest a lot of money in order to reduce the price of their product? If I ran a business, and I knew that people would pay as much as they could without going completely bankrupt, I would determine what that maximum was, and stick with it.

2. What about the environmental damage done by petro burning. I'm not talking about global warming, either. There are a lot of toxins in oil exhaust. Can the planet's ecosystems really take another two centuries of ever increasing oil burning?

3. What do you think of the idea of oil companies buying up alternative energy patents and then sitting on them?

[Grizz]

Jason,

Apology not necessary. I invited conversation and I'm happy to discuss this.

1. The oil company's reported profits last year were about 8.5%. The normal corporate business profits ran around 7.5%. To the degree that one percent is significant you can say that oil business last year was more lucrative than average. From the business standpoint there is no other 'there' there. The normal course if a business makes more money is to spend more money. Someday I hope someone will come up with the economic impact TODAY if all oil related companies ceased to exist. Everywhere. What would be the cost of no more roughnecks. No more shippers. No more drillers. No more welders. No more truckers. No more pipeline operators. See what I mean?

The oil industry is subject to the same laws of supply and demand that every resource extraction business is. The oil companies can make 7.5 to 8.5% at today's costs. That means they can afford to develop those oil fields that can support us for generations to come. I love this information.

2. Oil exhaust in America is cleaner than it has ever been. If you want it cleaner, invent something and sell it to them. You'll benefit and mankind will thank you. I think the ecosystem question is interesting and misguided by the algore hysteria. Natural processes produce far more toxins and ecosystem damage than burning oil does. There are deep wells in the ocean that continuously pump raw crude oil into the ecosystem. Is the ecosystem damaging the ecosystem? Are volcanos? Are earthquakes? Are sun cycles? The planet's ecosystems are harder on the planet than mere humans could ever be. I'm not saying that excuses poor husbandry on our part, I'm just saying on the reality scale, the sun refusing to shine or going super-nova is gonna cause far more damage than cars, even dirty ones. What I mean by that is people are really worried about the wrong possibilities.

3. I don't know anything about that. I've read that rumor. Like the great line in the Car-toon Cars: "It's a conspiracy man." But I don't know that it's true. It would be smart business if it were true, but I'm not certain that it is.

But let's take a for-instance; you find a great way to make cars run on water energy and the oil company offers you money. You have a choice. You can take the hundred million to the bank. Or you can keep the patent and make the business work for you. You supply the capital and make the doo-dads and market them and keep everyone happy. You get the fame, you get the glory for competing with the oil companies, and you get the profits. Do you sell? I mean, do you think the oil company goons will break your legs if you refuse to sell? So on the face of it, either some inventor is fabulously rich and can afford to drive his humvee, or the conspiracy theorists have pulled the wool over our eyes.

Grizz

[Blackhawk]

Echoing what Joe said.

From 2005.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/co ... ml?col=341

Johnny

[Grizz]

Joe,

Yeah, I remember the '72 'crisis'. Actually, there was oil in tankers, full ones, that sat at anchor and the oil companies refused to offload them. So there actually were some empty gas tanks somewhere. Depended on where you lived too. I never ran out of gas.

Markets do get manipulated. But oil companies do get burned too. Remember when all the oil rigs were tied up and none were getting built and wells were getting capped everywhere? Back when the capital gains tax was around SEVENTY-EIGHT PERCENT? No one could afford to be in the oil business then.

As recently as six years ago oil was at 10$ per barrel. Remember that? The oil companies couldn't afford to fanny burp at that price.

So yeah, there are excesses and there are market cycles and there are opportunities everywhere, whichever side we are on.

And I totally agree that the oil crisis is only in DC and only because of DC and the idiots in DC that actually are conspiring against our Nation.

Grizz

[Grizz]

Great link Blackhawk,

Thanks for posting it. What's stunning is that masses of us know this and somehow we can't stop 'em. What's up with that?

Grizz

[Jason_W]

If gas could somehow stay around $2/gallon, I would likely shut up about the whole thing.

Regardless of the reasons why prices are continuing to increase at the pump, it can potentially cripple this country. How will our infrastructure run if gas is $8.50/gallon?

Sometimes I feel like the fuel situation is like a machete wielding maniac walking into a crowded restaurant and hacking away at the patrons. Instead of banding together to stop the nutcase, they sit around arguing with each other about the guy's motivation.

If a new oil reserve can give our country a stay of execution, I say go for it. That being said, we can't get complaicant again if prices come down. If prices do somehow drop back to $2/gal, we need to remember and still push for the development of alternatives.

I also feel that we have to take another look at nuclear power in this country. The greenies blow a gasket if you suggest it, though.

[Blackhawk]

It not just our other "sources". Democrats feel like the energy problem is that they are not getting enough money from big oil companies, so they impose to tax more, block drilling, etc. etc. Until we get our head under control our body is doomed to fail. How we do that? Unless people wakeup, I'm not sure it'll ever be done outside a revolution.

Johnny

[RIHMFIRE]

I heard somewhere in the last couple of days...that
we have enough oil in the USA to last us for the next 60 years...

[alnitak]

Grizz -- I think you ought to go read Paul's post again. Resorting to calling people childish and belittling their opinions by disdainfully calling it leftism does not do anything to further a discussion.

It is not leftism, but only common sense, to not rely on a non-renewable energy source. Even in the article you cite above, 5-15 billion barrels will only get us 3-8 years worth of energy at our current rate of consumption (which is increasing every year) -- not a "couple of hundred years." And there is no guarantee they can even drill and produce the oil from those depths, not to mention that the costs are rising significantly as the difficulty to extract the oil increases. As the article stated, the extraction costs had risen 65% in just 30 months. Who knows what they are now, since that article was written in 2007. At that time, oil was $70 a barrel. It's now $120, and expected to be $210 or higher in a year. With the rising costs of extraction, do you really think we'll see $2/gal at the pump again?

It is only sensible to develop an energy source that makes the U.S. self-sufficient and not dependent on any foreign country (Mexico included) for any part of their energy needs, and all the associated political compromises that have to be made, much less wars fought over territory and resources.

It only makes sense to utilize clean sources of energy, rather than polluting the waters and skies, and leveling mountains (coal). One cannot eat the fish in the rivers, ponds and lakes where I live because of the runoff from the roads. And regardless of whether or not global warming is man-made or a function of natural cycles, one only has to look at cities like Los Angeles in the morning to see the impact of emmissions on the air (and read the reports of the effect poor air quality on the health of people who live there).

And yes, I know their reported rate of return is 8.5%. Compared to many commodity industries where the return rate is 3% or lower, that is significant. Besides, I never said their profits were unreasonable, I just said that the American public is paying the price for their insistance on relying on fossil fuels, and suppressing new technology, rather than fostering it. And the facts are that we (and the world) are paying a high cost for what could be a cheap commodity Ay $.15-16/mile (which is inexpensive compared to what it costs where I live) it is still an order of magnitude higher than, say, a Tesla, at $.01 per mile. Not to mention the water-engine technology reported a couple of years ago, where the inventor was getting 100 miles on four ounces of water (3200 MPG!). Of course, that technology was bought up and never brought to market by the oil companies. [I do allow for that fact that that technology may have been a false trail (like cold fusion of a few years ago); but there are proven technologies, like batteries and hydrogen that are significantly cheaper.]

We don't have a couple hundred years to figure this out. I agree with you that we should pursue new technologies, as we did in the 60's and 70's in the race for space. Look what we accomplished in such a short period of time. We should have implemented such a program 20-30 years ago -- we would be freed from oil dependence by now. And don't blame this all on the Democrats...both sides have their share of short-sighted and self-interest politicians. After all, it took Kennedy to create the vision for this nation that proved to be the impetus for the breakthoughs that led to the modern age. The only president with vision since then was Reagan. New oil fields and extraction methods are only a temporary stop-gap measure at best. To continue to fool ourselves into thinking they are anything but is short-sighted and unreasonable.

[bunklocoempire]

Then there's the Federal Reserve to figure in...

"We also must understand the effect monetary policy has on gas prices. The price of gas, like the price of all things, goes up because of inflation. And inflation by definition is an increase in the money supply. The money supply is controlled by the Federal Reserve Bank, and responds to the deficits Congress creates. When deficits are excessive, as they are today, the Fed creates new dollars out of thin air to buy Treasury bills and keep interest rates artificially low. But when new money is created out of nothing, the money already in circulation loses value. Once this is recognized, prices rise-- some more rapidly than others. That’s what we see today with the cost of energy."

...never a popular news story, go figure. And remember, there is nothing "federal" about the Federal Reserve.

Thanks, Bunkloco

[gary rice]

Remember when I said I'd post a link about our oil reserves when I found it?

I found it:

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazi ... mf_jackrig

Early in is this:

He works for Chevron, and his team is sitting on several new record-breaking discoveries in the Gulf, a region that many geologists believe may have more untapped oil reserves than any other part of the world.

When you combine this oil, which may be less, and could be more, with the oil on the rest of our coasts, and the oil in our interior, including the new finds, with the oil shales and coal, which can be gasified and converted to gasoline, as the nazii did in germany long ago, there is no excuse, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for us to use any other supply of oil.

In my opinion everyone who is thwarting our access is directly culpable for the gas costs they complain about daily.

I know the argument very well, the yabuts want to say it can't come online soon enough to alleviate the currentn market conditions. BUT that's because they don't understand markets. A presidential decree TODAY wouild start a short stamped in the oil markets TODAY that would be aided and abetted by the sauds IMMEDIATLY increasing their output in an effort to thwart the new policy, which would IMMEDIATELY force the longs in the market to sell which would FURTHER decrease the cost of crude oil.

Then we just have to follow thru, commit to build a hundred new refineries and a hundred new nukes.

CAN YOU SAY 50$ OIL? BINGO...

BUT, and the BIG but is this: does America have the WILL TO SURVIVE ?

Curious minds want to know.

griz, this is absolutely true. also, nobody talks about the new oil find in the dakota's, they estimate the reserves as twice as much as saudi has. it's called the baken project. the pity is, they wont let us drill for it. bush or any president i would think could possibly sign an executive order to eliminate all this b.s. that the environmental liberals have created and start drilling and pumping oil from all sorts of places especially off the west coast and florida. im not sure how much starvation it will take for the american public to wake up and demand that this nonsense stop. right, their is no sound reason to import another barrel of oil. if bush were to sign an order tonight, oil would drop by $50 a barrel monday morning.

[Sixgun]

Hey! Lets give Hillary or Osama the power to regulate those nasty oil companies. Then we can be just like Russia, China, and the rest of the commies. This is America and we are Capitalists at the finest. Like it or not, big business runs this country and while it may not be the best system, it works for us and sure gives us this comfy lifestyle. We got it MADE here. leave it alone.--------------------Sixgun

[Kismet]

Echoing what Joe said.

From 2005.
http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/co ... ml?col=341

Johnny

Great link Blackhawk,

Thanks for posting it. What's stunning is that masses of us know this and somehow we can't stop 'em. What's up with that?

Grizz

What on Earth is great about that link? It is just a bunch of ranting and name-calling. At least one of the four (yes, a whopping four) alleged facts is not even accurate (e.g. "Cars get two and three times the mileage they did thirty years ago and yet in many cases, are twice as powerful."). Bigger, faster, heavier, more advanced, more powerful, yes. Better mileage, which is presented as the important assertion of that sentence, nope.

Not to mention that it is farcical to blame the Democrats when the Republicans have been in control for the last eight years. (Don't even try suggesting that the Democrats have managed this in the last two years because the only thing the Democratically controlled Congress has managed to do is limit the Republican Presidential Agenda. They certainly have not acted alone to pass affirmative legislation that has caused the state we are in.) In case no one else noticed, the policies of GWB and the Republicans and the way the "war on terror" has been managed have directly led to our current economic situation, including the value of the dollar and the price of energy. You can imagine any other cause you like, but it is just your imagination.

I agree that we could dig up and use a lot of petroleum in our own country. That would also have a significant cost both in terms of actual cost to extract and environmental cost. What many of us can't believe the rest of you can't understand is that if we made it a priority, we could develop other options. These options would even provide us the most important benefit Republicans claim as their own, exclusive goal - energy independence from unfriendly nations.

We have options other than dig up more oil, but in their hatred of Al Gore, some people refuse to even consider those options. (To be fair, nuclear energy would be a great option but many environmentalists refuse to consider it as well.) Grizz suggested that someone just invent an even cleaner oil system so that we can keep using it and pollute less. Well, maybe it's time for your side, Grizz, to consider some other options instead of just complaining that the Democratic Elitist Environmentalists give in to whatever Exxon wants to do.

Michael in NH

[Tycer]

Then there's the Federal Reserve to figure in...
...never a popular news story, go figure. And remember, there is nothing "federal" about the Federal Reserve.

Thanks, Bunkloco

You mean, like, some dudes got together and made a bank that would control all the money and do away with the gold standard and sold the idea to their closest friends in the government?

NAWWWWW couldn't never happen.

Heck, if they could do that.....then they could probably start their own national school system and hospitals and insurance companies...

Nahhh, nobody's THAT rich and powerful.

Right?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Not to mention that it is farcical to blame the Democrats when the Republicans have been in control for the last eight years.

Yup, and GWB shamelessly signed off on not drilling near the Florida coast so he can be lumped in with many of the others. I don't think there are a lot of conservatives here that are exceptionally happy with the way the Republicans in Congress have carried themselves over the last few years. They certainly spent like drunken sailors when they had control and just this term the top three pork spenders were Republicans.

... To be fair, nuclear energy would be a great option but many environmentalists refuse to consider it as well.

Agree. It's embarrassing to be 30 years behind the French in nuclear energy.

... Grizz suggested that someone just invent an even cleaner oil system so that we can keep using it and pollute less.

As an example, running the oil through a reformate process to free the bound hydrogen whilst moving toward hydrogen based transportation, etc. In this case, you're not burning it, per se, but you're extracting a good portion of the energy and storing it as hydrogen. Many hydrogen fuel cells that run from Methane / Natural Gas use a reformate processor to produce their hydrogen from the Methane chemically as needed. I know oil is not Methane but it's just an illustration. We certainly produce a good bit of Natural Gas here in the U.S.

[AJMD429]

I'd rather see the U.S. Government fund and implement a near-term plan (other than ethanol and planting corn at the expense of food) to eliminate our dependency on oil at all. We have the technology,...however, I doubt we have the vision or will.

The only problem is that when the GOVERNMENT does something, it NEVER winds up being the best solution, and ALWAYS gets polluted with special interests and crookedness. The best thing would be for the government to QUIT any subsidizing, taxing, granting, or other 'managing' and let the free market competition do its thing. It works in every other area of the economy to drive down costs to the lowest an industry can bear and remain viable, and drive up the quality to meet the needs of the consumers.

[QuarterChoke]

I agree with Grizz. All you “alternative fuelâ€

[Grizz]

Good points Quarterchoke

It's about BTUs really. And like it or not, there's not much around that can match the BTUs in a gallon of gasoline. Especially not anything as portable and transportable as gasoline.

Our carbon based economy has been a boon and a blessing to the entire world.

Good points about the Fed too, and the devaluation of the dollar. I fault the current administration for refusing to defend the dollar. I think that is stupid.

As for the speculators governing the price of oil, that sounds good until you learn something about how the commodity markets function, and what the speculators are actually doing, and why it benefits us.

So, let's say crude oil futures are trading at 125$ per barrel for future delivery. That is what futures means. If I purchase a futures contract for 125$ it means that I promise to purchase 50,000 gallons of crude oil at this price on a date certain. The benefit of this is that the price at the pump doesn't go up and down in the kind of spikes that the speculation market does. Watch a chart sometime to see what I'm talking about.

So, what's the service that the speculator is providing? He is assuming all the financial risk for those 50,000 gallons of oil. There is profit available for trading skillfully, just as there is ruinous loss available for trading stupidly.

The commodities markets smooth out the spikes in the buy/sell pressures of a market, and they make the price for something stable for a certain period of time. If it weren't for those markets, your box of wheaties would cost you 15$ one day and 3$ the next big harvest. Having a stabilized market makes planning and risk taking much more profitable, and believe it or not, they make the cost of commodities much lower than they could be without futures contracts.

Not only that, but individuals can hedge in those markets. A good gasoline trade will pay all your driving costs for the year. Farmers use those markets. Ranchers use those markets. Airlines use those markets. Bankers use those markets. They all rely on the willingness of the speculators to take risk off of their hands so they can go about their business without the wild frenzy of the speculative markets showing up in the consumer market place.

I realize it's fashionable to chant imprecations about the speculators, but it's extreme ignorance. Our economy would grind to an immediate halt without the services provided by the commodity markets. What's more, most Americans would starve to death in short order because the price of commodities would spike out of sight.

The way to take the steam out of the oil futures market is to offer more supply in the future. More supply means less cost all the way down the line. Like someone said, you could take the supply uncertainty out of the market overnight with a substantive initiative to produce and refine our own oil. It's so obvious that even I get it.

It's time for Americans to stand up to the childish naysayers of every ilk, isn't it? It's time to say enough already, enough is too much. We've got oil, lots of it, and we're gonna get it, and use it, and do what's right for our Nation with it. And everyone who hates that is free to stop using oil and all its byproducts if it makes them feel better. But the normal Americans are going to be fruitful and multiply and bless our families and their offspring. And we'll gladly use the oil under our lands to bless out country. I think that's an idea that's ripe for fulfillment, don't you? It's the truly grown up mature thing to do.

The profit haters and the oil consumption haters and the business haters and the America haters should at the very least STOP USING OIL AND ITS DERIVITIVES AND ALL THE BENEFITS THAT OIL CONFERS ON THE NATION before they claim to have some kind of reason why we should listen to them. After all, what they really seem to be worried about is that THEY will run out of oil, and they want us to give it up so they can have it. Right? Otherwise they would divest themselves of every single benefit that oil confers. They can live in a world with no light, no heat, no clothes, no transportation, no plastics, no electricity, and no comfort afforded by oil production if they want to, but I'm here to tell ya, they can keep that to themselves, I don't want any part of it.

However, if you want to sell me a thingamajig that will enable my vehicle to get a couple hundred miles per gallon of gasoline, I'm ready to buy today. Roll it out. I'm ready. Let's see it.

Grizz

[Grizz]

Rimfire,

You can run your vehicles on natural gas right now. There are a couple hundred service stations across the country that sell it, plus you can use your household supply to refuel your car overnight. Takes a thingamajig plus some doodads.

You can buy a honda or toyota, I forget which, right now that runs on natural gas. Brand new. No stinking gasoline, just plain old stinking natural gas. Costs a lot less per/gallon and burns a lot cleaner adding thousands of miles to engine life.

In fact, I'm stunned that all the oil company haters aren't driving natural gas fueled vehicles right now. I suppose they don't really hate the oil companies. Because the clean alternative is already there for the taking.

A web search will turn up thousands of links on that topic.

Grizz

[KWK]

a region that many geologists believe may have more untapped oil reserves than any other part of the world.

Read that quote carefully; there's weasel words in it. It "may" have more "untapped" reserves! Let's disregard the "may" and look at "untapped." My understanding is there are no "untapped" reserves which match the proven reserves of the Middle East, and so "untapped" ends up meaning "not huge."

why would the oil industry invest a lot of money in order to reduce the price of their product

Why do lumber companies keep cutting down trees when this only lowers the price of their product?

The problem is Russia and the Middle East control the bulk of the current supplies. They can move total production up and down (within limits). Given the usefulness of and demand for oil, the price moves dramatically with minor changes in production.

Now, let's say Chevron invests buckets of money to pump oil from a field at a cost which just let's them profit at $100/bbl. Then the others turn on the taps for a few years to push the price down to $50/bbl. Chevron looses, big time. If a field is expensive to extract, it won't be developed until the big oil companies are certain there isn't enough supply somewhere that could push the price down.

nobody talks about the new oil find in the dakota's

I went searching and found this:

The oil reservoir was known to exist some time back, but drilling technology wouldn't allow for exploitation,

Supposedly, there's a big lake that's prevented drilling. Right. The Norwegians and others have been pumping oil out from under the North Sea for decades.

we can stop funding jihadis with our petro-dollars

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. If we had the oil and pumped it, there is no shortage of customers out there who will take the oil the jihadis offer, and they'll pay for it with dollars we sent them in exchange for the various poorly constructed products they sent us.

to crab about oil companies, as though we don't want or need or use their products, well, that's just childish

I'm with you 100% on that Grizz.

I believe there was a nationwide, industry wide conspiracy

Sigh. People are willingly paying $9/gal here in the UK for gasoline. As Grizz has pointed out, it's a wonderful fuel and worth even that. It takes a BIG jump in prices to lower demand a little. If supplies run even a little bit behind, the price skyrockets. Speculators believe such just a shortfall is near, and they are willing to bet their money the price will soon skyrocket.

idea of oil companies buying up alternative energy patents and then sitting on them

Please point to said patents. Patents are public information. They all expire in 17 years. Good grief!

the inventor was getting 100 miles on four ounces of water (3200 MPG!). Of course, that technology was bought up and never brought to market by the oil companies.

Groan. Water is burned hydrogen. Let's see, we can magically burn already burned hydrogen to propel a car! That's like saying we can burn CO2 to power a car. Even better, just connect the exhaust to the intake manifold! Perpetual motion, here we come!

As an example, running the oil through a reformate process to free the bound hydrogen whilst moving toward hydrogen based transportation

What!? Think about this! Gasoline is hydrogen and carbon bound together. Fuel cells oxidize only the hydrogen. This means all the potential energy liberated from oxidizing the carbon would be wasted. This will LOWER our energy reserves, not increase them!

I don't believe oil supplies will match demand for more than another 2 decades, and I think total production will decline slowly by mid-century. I am certain other countries will continue to industrialize, thus raising demand.

There's no sense whining about the price of gasoline. Clearly, new forms of energy are needed sometime this century. It will take big money to develop those, and high prices for fuel today simply take money from the hands of consumers and put it into the hands of investors, where it is needed.

[KWK]

I went looking further. Seems the original estimates for the ND field were wildly inflated. U.S. geologists released their report last month. They reckon there's about 4 or 5 billion barrels to be extracted there economically at today's prices. Compare this to the proven reserves of over 200 billion in Saudi Arabia. So much for the mighty Bakken. It's big, but it ain't gonna change the price of oil. It will make for some nice income to the people living in ND, and I'm sure they could use that up there.

[pahunter]

Simple economics explains today's oil situation. Demand is up- Many parts of the world (China, Korea, India) have advancing economies and they're using more oil. The global supply of oil hasn't really grown. When supply can't meet demand, the price goes up. The solution is to increase supply. The US has plenty of untouched oil, but policy driven by the environmental left prevents us from accessing it. Big Oil? Ha! How about Big Government!

[BAGTIC]

Grizz is right.

The reason we use oil instead of the other 'alternatives' is because oil really exists, here and now. It is also cheaper than any of the so-called pie in the sky alternatives.

$2 a gallon would be okay if it stayed there. Yeh, but NOTHING stays there. Inflation is an unescapable fact of life and always has been.

Driving 10 mph slower will save more fuel than throwing away your money on a new 'hybrid car'.

Driving lower performance cars will do the same. Many of us are dring cars with larger engines than the tanks we fought and won WW2 with. Riduculous. We have become like a bunch of spoiled self indulgent teenagers. Gone are the days of the fisherman with the little tin boat and 5-10 hp kicker. Nowadays people think you can't catch fish unless you're in an unlimited dragster.

The real problem is that paranoia has become a growth industry in this country. It is always easier to blame someone else that to look in the mirror. Forget the mote in everyone else's eye and look at the log in our own.

'The road to Hell is paved with wishful thinking'.

[KWK]

Correct on all counts, BAGTIC.

I'm driving here a Camry sized car with a 1.8L engine. There is plenty of acceleration, and I do better than 34 mpg all around, city and highway.

We in the US are truly spoiled kiddies. Gotta accelerate fast, gotta have 3 tons of mass, gotta have an automatic tranny, gotta have styling with the aerodynamics of a brick, etc. That's all fine when energy is abundant, but that will soon be in the past. Enjoy it while you can.

We've got 5% of the world's population sucking down about 25% of the world's petroleum production. The rest of the world is industrializing fast, and the workers there are willing to covert oil into products for less than workers in the US are. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the oil will be going in the future.

[QuarterChoke]

Grizz,

I have a little different take on the speculators. Let's say that you own a refinery with 1 million barrels of crude in your tanks that you bought at today's price, or you own a gas station with 10,000 gallons of gas that you bought at today's price. When the futures price jumps 2% tomorrow, you are forced to jump your price also. This is because you know that your next purchase will cost you more money, and that delivery will come COD. You have to have the money in your checking account at the time of delivery. That is why the local gas station goes up as soon as the barrel price goes up in the world market.

It used to be that the markets were dominated by North American and European speculators, and were conservative by today's standards. Today we see all sorts of new bidders with convertible currency in their hands, put there by the globalization movement of the past couple of decades. Hot money makes for instability.

[Grizz]

Grizz,

I have a little different take on the speculators. Let's say that you own a refinery with 1 million barrels of crude in your tanks that you bought at today's price, or you own a gas station with 10,000 gallons of gas that you bought at today's price. When the futures price jumps 2% tomorrow, you are forced to jump your price also. This is because you know that your next purchase will cost you more money, and that delivery will come COD. You have to have the money in your checking account at the time of delivery. That is why the local gas station goes up as soon as the barrel price goes up in the world market.

It used to be that the markets were dominated by North American and European speculators, and were conservative by today's standards. Today we see all sorts of new bidders with convertible currency in their hands, put there by the globalization movement of the past couple of decades. Hot money makes for instability.

Yeah, it's global for sure. There is a lot of evidence that the sauds shorted the markets and bought back the bottom before and after 9/11.

You have a point but the commercials are not always right. I saw an example in a commitment of traders [COT] article showing all the commercial oil producers on the wrong side of the market, and the small hands for once on the right side. The commercials ate the losses all the way to getting their positions flat. The market worked the way it was supposed to.

I know someone who built a factory for making tortillas, corn chips, and other foods of that style. He was a commercial user of corn, bought it by the carload, and hedged his prices in the corn futures market. This stabilized his prices, which benefited both his business and his customer's businesses, the local mexican food restaraunts and delis. Later when his business expanded and he was shipping carloads of his product into european markets he hedged his contracts trading swiss frank futures. That protected him from currency gyrations that affected his european contracts. The markets worked the way they're supposed to.

I know there is abuse of the speculative markets, but the system is so fault tolerant that the rogues get found out and taken down by the markets too. It's a two edged sword if one is inclined to live by the sword, or it's a great tool for business folks who use it wisely the way it was designed.

I agree with you that the markets have attracted sharks. Sometimes playing small benefits a great deal because of them...

Grizz

[Jason_W]

Gentlemen, I've spent a day thinking about this problem and have devised a way that I can singlehandedly make oil prices hit an all time, rock bottom low.

I'm going to scrape together every last penny of my personal net worth, and even take a massive, high interest cash advance on a credit card. I may even seek out a loan shark for some extra funds. I will then invest the entirety of this sum into the oil industry. I will then loudly and confidently declare, "This is a sure thing, there's just no way I can lose!!"

I guarantee that within a week someone will release a working design for a cold fusion reactor and a car that runs on happy thoughts.

[Jeff Quinn]

Gasoline costs what it does because we will pay it.

The oil companies are not evil, and they do not set the prices. Consumers set the price for gasoline, just like for every other product.

The gas station posts a price on their pump. I can choose whether or not to buy it. As long as I pay the price, why should they lower it? They have a product to sell. I want it, so I buy it.

The best way to protest high gas prices is to stop buying the stuff.

Same with car companies. They build what we will buy. We all have the option of buying a motor scooter that will get 100 MPG or better. We choose not to. I have two full-sized GM pickups, a Corvette, a Cadillac, and in choosing these I balanced the fuel economy and costs with the comfort, performance, and convenience that I desired.

Always remember, the market sets the price.

[QuarterChoke]

Hey Jeff,

If you decide to test out one of those 1000 MPG motor scooters, how about bringing it to Cheyenne next January.

[Jeff Quinn]

Hey Jeff,

If you decide to test out one of those 1000 MPG motor scooters, how about bringing it to Cheyenne next January.

I had a negligent discharge of my "zero" key!

[Noah Zark]

In north central PA there's oil and gas exploration and new well production going on like never before. Old "played out" fields and wells are sporting new gas wellheads and running pumpjacks.

All it took was to get the market price of a barrel of oil above $50 in order to get that "too costly to pump" oil and gas out of the ground.

Now that it's $125, there's even more incentive to product lower-cost domestic oil, oil that a refiner doens't have to pay ocean transport for.

There's one big difference between this "oil crisis" of 2008 and the oil crisis of 73-74.

NO GAS LINES AT STATIONS. NONE. NOT ONE.

I took the bus home from the USMC in 1974 and saw countless lines at innumerable stations in town after city on the way back to PA from Camp Lejeune. Today, I see NOTHING of the sort.

There's plenty of gasoline and diesel. And it's at the price point where the oil companies want it.

Noah

[JohnnyReb]

Gentlemen, I've spent a day thinking about this problem and have devised a way that I can singlehandedly make oil prices hit an all time, rock bottom low.

I'm going to scrape together every last penny of my personal net worth, and even take a massive, high interest cash advance on a credit card. I may even seek out a loan shark for some extra funds. I will then invest the entirety of this sum into the oil industry. I will then loudly and confidently declare, "This is a sure thing, there's just no way I can lose!!"

I guarantee that within a week someone will release a working design for a cold fusion reactor and a car that runs on happy thoughts.

Sounds like you have been looking at my personal portfolio

I have exactly the same investment strategy. When I sell a stock... many folks choose to buy it and make money....... When I buy it..... entire hedge funds and large portions of the mutual funds community dump it

[JohnnyReb]

Hey! Lets give Hillary or Osama the power to regulate those nasty oil companies. Then we can be just like Russia, China, and the rest of the commies. This is America and we are Capitalists at the finest. Like it or not, big business runs this country and while it may not be the best system, it works for us and sure gives us this comfy lifestyle. We got it MADE here. leave it alone.--------------------Sixgun

Sixgun makes an excellent point which seems to have gotten lost in the discussion. It is a fact of life that economies and countries are run from the top down....... Either BIG business or BIG government run the show.

Our nation has struck an pretty good balance between government control and big business for the last century and this is one of the reasons for our standard of living. Absolute capitalism will produce a caste system of very rich and very poor. Too much government control will work a redistribution of wealth to the extent that everyone will have just enough to get by.......kind of like a tribal community.

Accumulation of wealth is essential for the establishment of modes of production, R&D, invention, etc.

Contrary to what Billary or Obama may want you to think..... a bunch of people don't just come together at the assembly line in a GM plant and, as a community effort, decide to build a car and then try to sell it and share in the profit or loss.

[horsesoldier03]

It all sounds good in theory on the US producing our own oil again. However I cant help but wonder if the high wages will even allow us to do it at a cheeper rate. You have to consider all the laborers on the oil fields now in other countrys are lucky if they make $50 a month. With the cost of living being what it is in the US today, our own workers cant hardly compete. Dont get me wrong, I definately want the US to become more self sufficient, however, I sometimes wonder if we are only beginning to see a small portion of what lies ahead in our economy.

[WyrTwister]

Remember when I said I'd post a link about our oil reserves when I found it?

I found it:

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/magazi ... mf_jackrig

Early in is this:

He works for Chevron, and his team is sitting on several new record-breaking discoveries in the Gulf, a region that many geologists believe may have more untapped oil reserves than any other part of the world.

When you combine this oil, which may be less, and could be more, with the oil on the rest of our coasts, and the oil in our interior, including the new finds, with the oil shales and coal, which can be gasified and converted to gasoline, as the nazii did in germany long ago, there is no excuse, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE for us to use any other supply of oil.

In my opinion everyone who is thwarting our access is directly culpable for the gas costs they complain about daily.

I know the argument very well, the yabuts want to say it can't come online soon enough to alleviate the currentn market conditions. BUT that's because they don't understand markets. A presidential decree TODAY wouild start a short stamped in the oil markets TODAY that would be aided and abetted by the sauds IMMEDIATLY increasing their output in an effort to thwart the new policy, which would IMMEDIATELY force the longs in the market to sell which would FURTHER decrease the cost of crude oil.

Then we just have to follow thru, commit to build a hundred new refineries and a hundred new nukes.

CAN YOU SAY 50$ OIL? BINGO...

BUT, and the BIG but is this: does America have the WILL TO SURVIVE ?

Curious minds want to know.

Have to disagree with you on the nukes .

If you have an accident with a fossil fuel plant , you can start clean-up and rebuilding the next day .

With a nuclear plant , maybe a few hundread thousand years .

God bless
Wyr

[Peter M. Eick]

I have to shake my head at this thread.

Are you guys really that upset at us in the oil industry that you think we really sit around over coffee and try and figure out new ways to screw with you?

I don't know about the other supergaints, but at my company we are so dang busy trying to find more oil that screwing with the public is the last thing on our minds. Last weak, I spent over 70 hours at the office in 5 days. I work in exploration and I have projects running everywhere from Iraq to Indonesia to Norway to Colorado. We are doing everything we can to get as much oil on the market and make as much money as we can. We have to because that is what wall street demands. They want us to replace reserves and exceed profits. That takes a lot of exploration.

But, you think it is bad now? Just wait. See if you are not an insider, you probably have not heard of the "crew change" and you know what, it will really impact your pocketbook in the long run.

Oil is a cyclic business and we hire during the booms and layoff during the low cycles. We hired in the late 70's and early 80's and laid off until about 2004 give or take. There are not many like me that came in in the late 80's. So run the math. All of those survivors of the 70's. All those guys with experience are about to retire. We are now losing as many as a couple a week and the pace will pick up. I don't blame them. This is a business where you get no respect as this thread proves.

So how does this impact you? We are now hiring young kids, bright, young but untested and inexperienced and the experienced mentor's are retiring or so busy that they cannot train the new kids. Thus they will have to learn the mistakes of previous generations instead of being told what not to do.

That is expensive! I have already started to see it happen.

So gas too expensive for you? Enjoy it while you can. Write your legislator's and tell them to open ANWR (yes I worked ANWR for 7 years and yes there is oil there, heck if you study it for just a moment, you can find there are a bunch of oil seeps at the surface so oil is there. Now the question is how much!) Open Florida, East Coast, California offshore. Stop the enviro's from putting plants and animals before oil. Use less, go without, walk more, drive less. The list goes on and on.

I don't want to get in an argument here. If you don't like the product that I work so hard to find for you, then don't use it. We can sell it to China as they really like the stuff. And don't think we are trying to collude and set the price because if we did, it would not be $3.50 a gallon, it would be $10 or more just so we could make a decent profit like Coke does (as I saw recently 44% vs. our measly 8%).

[Grizz]

Peter, thanks so much for chipping in. I love oil products and appreciate the benefits to my quality of life, and the benefits to all my family. I'm all for you. I'm glad you're there working it out so I can live as well as I do.

I am also unashamedly PRO-AMERICA. What we can't do, and what won't work, and what can't be just isn't American. In fact, it's UN-American to say don't drill, don't produce, don't refine, don't work at being energy independent. It's just plain ANTI-American, and I am just plain agin' it. I'm against all the can't-do-its and won't-work naysayers.

Folks who don't want the blessings of living in America are invited to leave. Places that don't have much use for electricity and plastic include Sudan, Afghanistan, most of the mideast outside of the show cities. Those folks all live very lightly on the land and have small carbon footprints. If that's a value to aspire to then I suggest those in favor of living like that live there.

As for me and my tribe and I trust a healthy proportion of my fellow countrymen, I like it the way it is and I want more of it for more Americans who appreciate it like we do. Let's re-surge America's greatness and stop trying to mimic the third world's problems.

[Grizz]

Here ya go shooters: the can-do mentality.

http://www.hhowater4gas.com/

I don't know if this is for real, but I would think everyone who thinks gas costs way too much would jump on this. Please update this topic with your successes.

Regards,

Grizz

[Peter M. Eick]

I had another thought for you all that think we in the oil industry are not doing enough and are hold back on you all.

I suggest you take some money and buy some stock. Most of ours (the supergiants that is) is less then 100$ per share. So buy some. Quarterly dividends are around 2 to 3$ a share, so it is a reasonable investment.

Now as a share holder, come to a shareholder meeting and when they ask if there are any questions from the floor, stand up and ask what our execs are doing to lower the price of gas and how are they investing in the future?

Ask them how come they are buying back their stock to raise the price instead of plowing that money back into exploration to find more oil?

And if you really believe that we are holding back technology that would make cars get 100 mpg, to stand up there on live TV and ask our execs where is the technology and why are they holding it back?

I mean seriously, come on down to Houston and go to the meetings. Most are going to happen in the next few weeks. Your now a shareholder ask the question and hear the real answers.

I have a lot of faith in our execs. They won't lie because if they do, then the Feds take it real personal and folks go to jail. Ask the pointed question and don't accept the hedge answer.

I know I will be going to it. I find them fascinating to see how our company works and as a shareholder, I want to know where my money is being invested.

[KWK]

I don't know if this is for real

It's not. It violates basic principles of physics.

Ask them how come they are buying back their stock to raise the price

I've read it's as simple as there's nothing better to do with the profits. Exploration is going on like mad, but there's not enough places left to explore (in the free world) to use all the current profits. Worse, fools like Obama are talking about taxing the snot out of them even if they do find more.

By buying up their own shares, they are returning the money to the investment community without their own investors having to pay immediate taxes on dividends. Overall, such an approach is good for the country in the long run, for investors outside the oil industry are the ones more likely to discover new ways of harnessing energy; those inside will be too focused on oil to see alternatives.