Leverguns in New Zealand!!!

[KiwiKev]

So the Government has rushed through some poorly constructed legislation not only banning Military Style Semi- automatics but any attached or detached magazine over a 10 round capacity. This affected a whole range of leverguns including my Rossi octagonal in .357/.38 which takes 12+1. Everyone is talking semi-automatics, no-one is talking leveguns based on a design over 120 years old. A lot of levergun enthusiasts are really gutted

Options being talked about include reducing the length of the tube magazine or putting a reducing solution in. I understand this is the case in Europe where they are limited to 5 rounds and some states which have rules about magazine capacity.

What we don't know is what solutions to the magazine will the police find acceptable. The crazy thing is the Government is suggesting the will buy back everyone's Semi autos and sell them to the police and military. Will they buy back our leverguns? It is all really sickening.

The atmosphere is really bad among shooters. Say a prayer for us!

[EG73]

It initially looked like they were going to do decent laws that still gave a fair bit of freedom. Instead it seems you guys are getting pineappled as hard as we did in Australia... I’m sorry to hear this, NZ was once so respected in firearms communities.

[wvfarrier]

Do yall have any legal recourse to fight back?

[Sixgun]

I'll tall ya what to do...the same thing here that Americans do....IGNORE IT......have twenty thousand guys show up at government headquarters with all your guns slung over your shoulders and tell them, "go ahead, arrest us". They can't enforce such a stupid law....it's bad enough they outlaw the semi autos but YOU guys tell THEM that "we ain't giving you no more" and to "leave our leverguns alone".

Here, in the states, we give up NOTHING.... Colorado passed a stupid law for high capacity magazines.....the biggest manufacturer of the magazines pulled out of the state and the citizens ignore the law.

It's going to take someone with a big set of balls to organize you guys and hopefully, he or she will get enough of a following to fight back. Don't take nothing lying down.....STAND AND FIGHT!-----6

Best of luck to ya Kiwi.....you only live once and you will feel better one day, when going to your grave, that others did not control your destiny.

[stretch]

Best of luck to you Kiwis!

Do you have to register all of your guns in the land of the Long White Cloud yet?

If not, I'm inclined to listen to Sixgun - ignore 'em.

They tried gun registration in Canada awhile back, and it was a spectacular failure.
The citizens simply ignored the government. No gun registration, so without searching
EVERY dwelling across Canada, they couldn't prove who had what.

-Tom

[Scrumbag]

Keep fighting you Kiwi Blokes and Gals!

Rooting for ya. In the UK most of our rights in terms of firearms are gone - do not go quietly into the night!

[AJMD429]

"It initially looked like they were going to do decent laws that still GAVE a fair bit of freedom."

THAT is the pivotal point....government cannot 'give' freedom (or anything else) to citizens....government has nothing to give. ALL it can do is take.

Citizens 'give' things to government; material things, in the form of taxes, and yes, citizens can 'give' rights to the government. For instance, citizens give the police officer a right to possess a firearm while serving as their employee, along with restrictions as to type of weapon, ammunition, and under what circumstances it may be used.

Government does NOT give rights or freedom or liberty to citizens. Fundamental rights (accurately, but unfortunately, called negative liberties) are inherently possessed by virtue of one's existence as a human. Those rights can only be TAKEN by government, either in a justified manner, such as when the citizen violates a legitimate law, or an unjustified manner, such as when governments take money from a disfavored group and buy votes with it by 'giving' it to a favored group.

Rights 'given' by government are sometimes (unfortunately) referred to as positive liberties, in that they are created out of thin air, and 'given' by government. The problem with those 'rights' are that they are actually created by the use of force to deprive someone else of their money or property or freedom.

https://www.learnliberty.org/videos/thing ... ve-rights/

So....if you guys in New Zealand are already thinking that government 'gives' (and can thus take away) rights like self-defense and property ownership, then ANY FURTHER DEBATE OR ACTION OR NEGOTIATION IS DOWN THE WRONG PATH.

The logical, and real political, endpoint of that approach is that ALL other rights and freedom becomes forever subject to the whims of your government, which morphed from one designed to serve the citizen, to one designed to RULE over the SUBJECT. There is a huge and fundamental shift there....and the significance is CRITICAL when 'firearms' (particularly the type of 'military-style' ones a militia would depend on) is the 'right' being debated, for that right is THE fundamental 'liberty teeth' by which all others are protected.

So far the Second Amendment has prevented outright tyranny, and blood-in-the-streets level of fighting to protect liberty here in the U.S., but without that in your Constitution, you have NO legal standing to stop ALL your rights being taken.

Sadly, that means that unless you guys ACTUALLY DO what Sixgun said, and do it NOW, you are screwed.

Any talk of cutting down magazines, or other 'compromises' to persuade your rulers to 'allow' you to keep some of your firearms, is wasted time and simply sets the precedent that you are all willing to hand over all your firearms, as well as whatever else your rulers tell you to hand over. IT IS CLARIFYING TO THEM THAT YOU ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT ANY AND EVERY ILLEGITIMATE DICTATE THEY COME UP WITH, FOR EVER MORE.

The guys at the gun club, and their soccer-mom wives, will just want to buy a decade of partial freedom for themselves, so they can play with their toys and their cute little hobbies, but the trade-off will be REAL freedom, and in the long run, real LIVES, as gun registration is the match that lights the fuse of genocide. Your last chance to stomp on that fuse is to use the guns you have left to 'point out' to your rulers that you are unwilling to go down that path. Those in charge should be non-violently forced out of power, and all registration lists destroyed, and a Second Amendment inserted into your Constitution that is even more forcefully-worded than ours. Preferably including clear and severe penalties for any government official that ever even PROPOSES legislation deemed to violate the right to keep and bear arms.

Given the aversion to violence most gun owners have (unlike the anti-gun 'progresssive' left, who are the intellectual and moral descendants of those who stoked the ovens at Auschwitz), I would not expect New Zealand to suffer armed rebellion, but without gun owners getting united, and REFUSING to compromise, AND UNLESS YOU TURN THE DEBATE AROUND AND GO ON THE OFFENSIVE, you may as well just throw your wonderful leverguns in a big pile and drive a bulldozer over them.

I'm sorry that most of your fellow citizens don't understand these things, and don't likely care enough to learn from history, or take the time, money, and social risk necessary to preserve freedom.... Honestly, I think it's now the same way in the U.S., and without the Second Amendment helping to stall most of the anti-gun nonsense, I'm not sure the bulk of the electorate (even the 'gun owners and sportsmen') would do anything at all to preserve freedom - most only care about inconvenience to their 'hobby'...

"Those who want the government to regulate matters of the mind and spirit are like men who are so afraid of being murdered that they commit suicide to avoid assassination." - Harry S. Truman

[EG73]

I’m australia, we’re way too far gone to ever hope or getting back what we lost. This is new to NZ though.

Yes, the government only take. The problem here is we don’t have a constitution to protect us, we don’t have an organisation like the NRA. We have the SSAA but they submit to the governments every whim and seem to be just in it for the money.

Another thing to remember, is as mentioned above, we dont just lack AN organisation, but we also lack organisation. Couple that with internal conflict and squabble, like in NZ just recently with the “military style rifles”. All the target shooters, western action shooters would go “oh that doesn’t affect me, I don’t use them anyway. You guys are on your own”.

Then suddenly the government goes “actually, lets get rid of lever guns too”.

And those who use them will go “oh well, that doesn’t affect me...” repeat, slowly losing each group. “Divided they fall”.

That’s what happens in England, Australia, nz.. We’re already screwed here. I reckon Canada will be the next to fall. Governments here are widely viewed as being in it for themselves, but apathy reigns supreme. The people are defeated. Nobody thinks they can make a difference.

[Ysabel Kid]

Yes, the strategy has always been divide and conquer. It preys on man's instinct to protect their own, but making people think others are not "their own". In the modern age, governments also know that many have more to lose, and thus, will give up their rights on one thing in a vein attempt to secure their right and standard if living on other things. As Doc pointed out, this has never worked and has always been a false promise. Civilian disarmament always, eventually leads to genocide and enslavement. Always.

Six gun is right. Non-compliance first; fight when provoked.

Good luck!

[gundownunder]

A lot of the talk here has been based on the US understanding of freedom and rights.
We are not citizens, we are subjects of the British commonwealth. The only rights we have are the ones they see fit to give us. We don't have our rights enshrined in a constitution. We don't have a right to form a militia to protect ourselves from tyrannical government. The closest you guys have to us is the peoples democratic republic of Kalifornia. Kiwi numbers may be a little different but here in Oz we are outnumbered about 25 to 1 by liberals, do-gooders, and greenies.
.
One last thought: On the subject of self defense.
If you're going to defend yourself, for pity's sake, don't do anything to hurt the crim, or to infringe on HIS rights to go about his business.

[Griff]

A lot of the talk here has been based on the US understanding of freedom and rights.
We are not citizens, we are subjects of the British commonwealth. The only rights we have are the ones they see fit to give us. We don't have our rights enshrined in a constitution. We don't have a right to form a militia to protect ourselves from tyrannical government. The closest you guys have to us is the peoples democratic republic of Kalifornia.{snip}

Exactly! And while the founders of this great country fought that fight over 200 years ago... the current crop of residents don't see the need to continue the fight to keep what we have... Frankly, because the imbeciles can't see what the end result of their apathy, (or worse... their disdain for our Constitution and the rights enshrined therein), will be.

[mickbr]

To be honest with our NZ friend, even in the US the 50 states and 3000 counties there have vastly differing laws. You didn't see folks getting into shootouts with police or storming city hall each time either. Even after the latest massacres some states had changes. Fact is you got to win these battles before it gets to the point of armed resistance(eg with culture or legal arguments) because unfortunately most modern folks see guns as a hobby and 1st world folks don't sacrifice themselves and family over a hobby... I feel bad for NZ because youalso got the UN, world media and US lobby groups weighing in against you in this, its a lot for a country of only 4 million to resist.