Help w/a Model 1894 - Range Update

[Bruce]

Fellas,

I picked up a fairly nice Winchester 1894 today at a gun show. I would like to hear your input and comments on it. The wood and metal have been refinished and a after market butt pad has been added. The fit of both wood to metal is very good and the gun is as tight as if new. The internals, including the barrel are fantastic. I place the year of manf. as either 1919 or 1920.

The spec's are: S/N 8792xx. It has a 26" round barrel. The caliber is 32 W.S. It has either a half mag or button mag (your call). It is a takedown model. There is no rear sight dovetail on the barrel (I have never seen this??) The markings on the barrel are "Manufactured By The Winchester Repeating Arms Co. New Haven Conn. USA Pantented August 21, 1894", and -Nickel Steel Barrel- Especially For Smokleless Powder and the caliber 32 W.S. Ther are no other visible markings on the barrel, but I have not pulled the forearm yet.

The tang has the standard Model 1894 Winchester markings. There is the standard Winchester proof mark on the front top of the reciever. The takedown lever has the -Pat. June 6, 1893- mark. There is a 7 inside a diamond on the bottom tang in front of the trigger.

The tang sight is also fantastic. It is marked Lyman Middlefield Conn. It is tight and has some adjustment features that I am not familiar with. Hopefully the pictures will show the various features so that someone can tell me how they work. It has the dual internal flip type aperture that can be flipped up for a small hole and down for a larger hole. What has me especially confused is the small click adjustable lever on the left side at the base. Help???

The wood is very nice also. Both pieces show a birds eye pattern w/ some burl. The pictures won't do any justice.











Your comments and input are appreciated. Even though it has been refinished, I plan on having it lettered.

[claybob86]

Looks very nice! Good find!

[O.S.O.K.]

wow - very nice.

My guess on the Lyman sight is that is a windage adjustment - or a windage "lock" after you've adusted it.... or maybe something to hold it up or down? - -

What is the lenght of pull? May be that they just added the recoil pad which means that you could restore the buttstock just by removing and adding a winchester buttpad.

Have fun!

[Pete44ru]

I believe the tanger's locking knob is just that - a lock to keep the sight's staff in position.

That magazine's the half-mag. A button mag would only have the end cap proud of the end of the forend tip.

JMO, but I would dump the shotgun-type ventilated recoil pad, and install a Winchester buttplate or at least a thin, 1/2" solid red or black rubber buttpad.

[rjohns94]

very nice . very good find

[Bruce]

The stock was not cut and I can replace the butt pad with an original. The lever on the sight has click adjustments and if you look real close, you will see the serations to another device that is on the left of the base. Don't know what it is either. A quick look at the Winchester Collectors site shows that they do not have records that go up to my s/n at Cody. Does anyone know if that is so?

[Last Spike]

Bruce, the Cody factory records only go up to serial number 359,999. Not sure about the polishing room records - may be worth checking this out with Dave Kennedy the CFM curator.

[Bruce]

OK, the little lever on the bottom of the base is for locking the sight in the up position. The other item with serations works in conjuction with that lever to provide detents. There is no windage adjustment. Thanks for putting that thought out there.

The sight has some info that I originally missed. Poor lighting may have me giving some bad info, but here goes. PAT. JUL 25.05 CCT 150.

The butt pad is an after market Pachmayr. I have no clue as to how it is attached. It must be glued on as there are no visible screw holes through the back.

[arjunky]

OK, the little lever on the bottom of the base is for locking the sight in the up position. The other item with serations works in conjuction with that lever to provide detents. There is no windage adjustment. Thanks for putting that thought out there.

The sight has some info that I originally missed. Poor lighting may have me giving some bad info, but here goes. PAT. JUL 25.05 CCT 150.

The butt pad is an after market Pachmayr. I have no clue as to how it is attached. It must be glued on as there are no visible screw holes through the back.

Try and peel back the rubber in places where the screw should be.
Should have a couple slits with the screws hidden underneath.

Byron

[Bruce]

There are no hidden holes. I have looked.

Fellas, I am getting pretty excited. I just went to the Rare Winchesters web site and found a similar rifle with a "very" close s/N. It also does not have a dove tail cut for the barrel's rear sight. That kind of had me worried, but no more.

It appears I have a Lyman 1A sight.

[Tycer]

Beauty!

[20cows]

You done good!

[Jaguarundi]

Congrats that is a nice find !

[John in MS]

Per George Madis's "Winchester Book," the rear sight dovetail could be omitted by special request for a $1.00 charge, as when ordering a rifle with a tang or receiver sight. He notes that was not often done as people didn't want to pay the extra $ for an omission, so they would just put a filler blank in the dovetail when using peep sights. If that barrel is original to the rifle, it's a special order feature which suggest the rifle may have been ordered with the tang sight (or plans to buy one after it arrived.) Look at the proof marks on the barrel, just before the receiver. There should be a circled "WP" proof mark on top of the front receiver ring, and another just like it forward of the receiver, on top of the barrel. If there is a "P" in an oval (which may be broken and look like parentheses) in addition to the fully-circled WP on the barrel, it means the barrel was sold for after-market installation outside the factory. If there is simply a "WP" in a circle, it means that barrel was originally installed (on SOME Winchester, not necessarily yours) at the factory.

Removing the forend and magazine tube assembly should reveal a date of manufacture of the barrel, stamped into the underside of the barrel. Be aware that doing this, you risk some damage to the wood when removing it from the forend -- it's old, has been on there a long time, and some fine edges may chip or crumble when you remove it. Also, most, but not ALL, barrels in this era will have a date of manufacture. However, if you're determined to see if the barrel's date of manufacture coincides with the date of your receiver, that may be one way to get a better idea. Naturally, the 2 years don't have to match exactly -- barrels and receivers were used out of sequence at times, depending on special-order requirements, as they were made in batches and some sat for a good while before they were used. As the rifle is not in collectable condition, I would not personally risk the possible damage of taking the forend assembly apart, myself, to check the barrel date.

The Lyman tang sight is a good one, and a valuable addition to your rifle. The lever on the left side does "ratchet" forward to tension the sight in either the up or down position, and remove wobble. Unfortunately, I have seen them where this mechanism is no longer effective, and the peep sight stem did have some wobble even when locked, so it can be subject to wear. Same with the elevation knob and staff assembly of the peep sight stem. Lyman did not use a locking nut to keep the elevation from changing (as Marble's did), so only friction kept the sight's adjustment from changing. As that sight wears, they can become loose and easily changed. If the elevation knob won't turn at all, DO NOT attempt to use pliers or other implements on it -- you will just wreck the knurling, even if you pad the jaws. Rather, remove the sight and soak it in a solvent or penetrating oil to loosen/dissolve old oil which may be congealed inside and preventing the elevation knob from turning. If you find that it is loose due to wear and spins too easily, a bit of blue loctite dropped down the staff and into the threads (yes, really) will give tension to hold the sight's adjustment, but still allow you to make adjustments. If you adjust it frequently, the locktite will wear, and you may have to apply more, so I'd only add the loctite after you've shot the rifle and figured out your zero, or are pretty close to zeroed. I have used this method on a couple of old, worn Lymans and they work fine this way.

Hope this helps,
John

[Bruce]

John,

There is no WP proof mark on top of the barrel. There is one on the top front of the receiver. I pulled the forearm w/o any problem. The marks on the underside of the barrel are as follows; There is a pyramid shaped stamp, 32 WS, MNS or SNW and a very clear stamped (VP). The parentheses surrounding the VP are close to the letters and would not have allowed for a W instead of a V. The stamping is so deep and clear that I fill fairly certain that it is not a mis struck W. Any ideas on that?? There is not a manufacture date on the underside.

I guess I got lucky with the Lyman. It is tight and adjusts with distinct clicks. No wobble either. That is for both the locking lever and the elevation knob.

Thanks for the information

[Ysabel Kid]

Looking forward to the range report - she looks like a beauty to me!!!

[buckeyeshooter]

What a nice rifle! It is also quite interesting to see the history of the gun deciphered here!

[Pete44ru]

Pachmayr pads are made from a high-quality rubber, that show no marks when a pad's screwed on correctly - although it also may be glued on.

Someone, who knows what their about, would use a razor to cut a very fine vertical slice for each of the two screw's entries, after the screws were lubricated so as not to catch/tear the fine edge. A screwdriver with a rounded blade/shaft would be saved for pad jobs, likewise to preserve the fine slits - which literally disappear after cleanup.

Rub the pad surface sideways, hard, with your fingers, about where the screws go, to slightly spread the slits if they're there.
Either a common or Phillips-head screw might have been used.

If there's no slits - the glue job can usually be sliced off with a single-edged razor blade, being careful not to catch the wood.
The back of the razor blade can be tapped lightly with a small tack hammer, causing the blade to act like a chisel.

The glue's probably so dry by now, that when the razor starts it's cut, the pad might just "pop" off the rest of the way w/o cutting.

[Sixgun]

Nice gun. Its a very late gun to have so many special order features. Most of the special ordering was about done by the 1900-1910 period. As you said, the lever on the side of the Lyman #1 is for locking the stem. There is no proof mark on the barrel because it was buffed off. The "no dovetail" on the barrel is an item I have only seen a few times. It would not surprise me if the original buttstock was a shotgun butt.
If that gun was mine, (its not ) I would replace the buttstock as there is nothing worse that an aftermarket pad, even if you have to buy a "junker" with nice wood to get it. I would strip that nasty reblue and have someone rust blue it.
For real---If you get the itch for something else, pm me and I'll be glad to give you a decent profit on that gun.-------------Sixgun

[3855]

Interesting gun.

The lack of proofmark on the barrel is troubling though. It leads to two possible conclusions. One, the gun was a rebarreled outside the factory with mismatched parts. (An earlier barrel with a later receiver). Two, the proofmark was buffed off during the refinishing. Do the other barrel markings appear to have been thinned by buffing?

It would be extremely unusual that Winchester let a gun out the door with only a proof mark on the receiver and not the barrel. I have never seen such an example. The proof mark under the barrel is not a substitute for the one that should be on top of the barrel.

Barrel and receiver markings on Model 1894's also varied throughout the the manufacture of the rifle. If you could post a pictures of tang and barrel markings it might provide addittional clues to determine if the parts are mismatched.

The delete rear barrel dovetail is a very rare option. A unique find at any case.

[OD*]

Beautiful rifle, Bruce. The marking on the under side of the barrel probably is MNS, Midvale Steel Co., the NS after the first letter stood for nickel steel.

[kimwcook]

Nice piece. Looks just about like mine other than the short mag.

[J Miller]

Bruce,

That's a nice rifle, I kind of like it.

However I see something I gotta bring up. I'm thinking that the stock has been replaced.
First: it doesn't fit the gun right. Look at the front of the stock around the tangs.
Second: the comb starts right at the end of the upper tang, compare that to the avatar pic that 3855 has and you can how far back the comb should be. Were it mine, ( I know, it's not ) I'd hunt up an original stock and have that refinished to match.

Who ever refinished it did a really nice job, I find no fault with that. Now you can use it and make it's history yours.

Joe

[Bruce]

Joe, the fit you see is something I missed originally. I was in a hurry to get out of the gun show before the seller changed his mind. There is a slight gap where someone apparently sanded it when they refinished it.

I have her apart right now for a cleaning and oiling, even though it was not bad at all. I want a good look at the rifling.

Here are the barrel marking pictures.





Here are the tang markings.




I used a white china marker to hilight the stampings. Hope this helps.

[Bruce]

How about some pictures of the stock???





It may not be right, but I sure don't want to remove it.

My wifes dog is sure happy about this one!

[3855]

It appears like the barrel has been buffed enough that's it's likely the barrel proofmark was buffed away. Some were fairly lightly stamped.

Still a unique gun. I hope you enjoy shooting it.

[Bruce]

Sixgun, I am not inclined to get rid of this one. We don't see many takedowns here in north Florida, especially half mag ones. I have been looking for one like this for quite a while and this is the first I have come across. I am tickled to get a 32 WS as I hardly ever seen any rifle in that caliber around here either.

I am starting to search for a correct butt pad, but suspect I am going to have a hard time convincing someone to let go of one. I got around to completing the barrel cleaning last night. It only had a small amount of copper fouling and no lead fouling that showed up. The rifling is good and strong but there is a little freckling that I had not picked up on. The twist sure does look a little faster than the standard 1/16 for a 32 WS. I will determine that sometime today.


3855, I believe you are correct about the barrel proof mark being buffed away. The proof mark on the front top of the receiver is plenty visible, but thin in depth. It was probably thinned by buffing also.

Even though it has been refinished, I am still happy I came across it. I am very pleased that everything is tight. I may get to shoot it today if my gun shop buddy has some 32 ammo.

[Pete44ru]

Bob's usually has the right buttplate for $20.

Measure the length/width of your rifle's butt (not yours ) and give him a call:

http://www.gun-parts.com/buttplates/

[sore shoulder]

I must say that, although I am a Marlin fan, that takedown is surely a nice piece. However that stock just does not look right (to me ), and although I'd imagine it surely feels better to shoot, the stock in 3855's sig looks more right, whatever that means . If I ever find myself at a point where "collecting" becomes a viable option for me, it will be limited to takedown rifles. There is something about the mechanics of them that fascinates me. In fact, I have my eye on a Win model 12 at a local gin store that might be my first takedown.

[Bruce]

Sore Soulder, the stock does feel good and I am not a collector either. I bought this one because I also wanted a good takedown, especially with the 26" barrel.

I shot the barrel full of Wipe Out Foaming bore Cleaner a let it sit overnight. I got the last of the copper out and the light freckling seems to be dissapearing. Maybe it is just lead and I can get it out.

Had some fun with my gun smith yesterday. I carried the rifle in and asked him to cut the barrel down and to weld me a scope mount on the barrel. He didn't think that was too funny.

I had acutally forgotten that I owned a the Madis Winchester book, which I had loaned to a friend a long time ago. I am getting it back this morning and will see what I can determine.

Thanks for the information and comments.

[Bruce]

Well, I got my Madis book back and feel good about what I can find about the rifle. I would like to know a value, but I am finding prices all over the range on the internet.

I did get the chance to shoot her today and that made me very pleased. The temp was 90, high humidity, somewhere slightly above sea level, but not much. The ammo was factory Remington 170 gr. Core Lokt SP and the range was 100 yards shot off of a bench with bag supports. I used the smaller of the two apetures on the Lyman.

I was aiming at the center of the target with the sights set as I received the rifle. The barrel had been cleaned very well and these were the only three shots fired since I got it and cleaned it. The first shot is the one dead center of the target and number two and three are slightly higher and to the right. For reference, the squares on the target are one inch.



Not too bad! I quit at three because I was at the gun smiths repair range that he uses for testing firearms.

[sore shoulder]

Good shooting. I'd say you could go deer hunting right now with that group and out to 150 yrds no problem.