Need Help With A Plumbing Problem Calculation

[BrianSH]

Kitchen sink is clogged. Neither Drano nor Liquid Plumber has helped. So step next is a drain snake.
There should be a formula to tell me how far down the clog is.
House is modern, built in 2002, so the pipe diameter should be standardized.
So the question is, how many feet will one gallon of water, or two, three, consume. In other words distance from the clog to the sink measured by using gallons of water.
Also, there is an outside pipe access right under the kitchen sink window.

I'm open to any advice.
- Brian

[Blaine]

http://www.rhomarwater.com/calculators/ ... calculator

Jigger the figures around. IE, calculate for a foot then wiggle in the variable.

[BrianSH]

Thank you, Brian

[BrianSH]

Thank you, Brian

[jeepnik]

If anyone is interested I have a spread sheet that calculate pipe volume. If you know the length and diameter it can calculate the volume. It has various schedules of pipe, types and so on. Works great for a system with mixed types of pipe and diameters.

[gcs]

Wow, I just jam it in there till it gives,lol

Hmmm, that doesn't quite sound right.

[jeepnik]

The problem with what Blaine posted is that it's only for one type of pipe. Most drain pipe is either ABS or cast steel.

Tell me what type of pipe you have, and how much water it takes to back it up and we can get close.

[zoner]

when a kitchen sink clogs up first check the trap....the s curve shaped plpe directly under the sink drain. If the plug isn't there it will be where the sink line(verticle) connects to the sewer main(horizontal). About 3' of snake should unplug it. If your "plumbing access" outside means a 2" threaded plug into a 2" vertical sewer line that's a sewer cleanout....a fitting installed to make clearing the drain easy. Pull that plug and run your snake in there. Your other option is to remove the trap under the sink and run the snake in the line there. Put some water in the sink and have somebody watch that while you go outside and run the snake in that cleanout. When the water runs out of the sink you got it.

[wecsoger]

And cheap advice here is exactly what you paid for it. (grin)

Ah...is the clog before (sink side) or after that cleanout? Open it up and if water shoots out, there's your answer.

Wifey always is washing hair in sink. I've got one of those cheapie spring type 'snakes' and I've got the wire on the end bent out to a hook.

Pull the drain trap under the sink for access, put on the rubber gloves and start the snake back there into the darkness, turning it all the time.

Usually I can tell when I hit a clog, withdraw the snake and there's something or things disgusting on the end.

When you pull the snake out, DO NOT let it get that slime or muck on a rug - it will stain and never come out. Better to coil it up in a five gallon bucket if you can.

My $00,000.02 worth.

Please post to how it all turned out...

[BrianSH]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I had pretty much concluded that it was going to be a snake through the trap, or outside in the access no matter what.
What I was hoping for is that some one would have a magic trick, but to no avail.
Thanks again. - Brian

[4t5]

Protect your skin if you remove the trap after applying drain o or liquid plumber.

[jeepnik]

Protect your skin if you remove the trap after applying drain o or liquid plumber.

Too heck with your skin, protect your eyes!

[wecsoger]

Even though good plumbing is a big cornerstone of civilization, there's actually very little magical about it.

Best of luck.

[Blaine]

The problem with what Blaine posted is that it's only for one type of pipe. Most drain pipe is either ABS or cast steel.

Tell me what type of pipe you have, and how much water it takes to back it up and we can get close.

A 1/2" pipe is 1/2" no matter what....I can't imagine what the heck you're talking about.
Personally, I'd go to the clean-out that's outside....If you have trees and bushes get some of that copper sulfate to kill the roots in the drain.

[jeepnik]

The problem with what Blaine posted is that it's only for one type of pipe. Most drain pipe is either ABS or cast steel.

Tell me what type of pipe you have, and how much water it takes to back it up and we can get close.

A 1/2" pipe is 1/2" no matter what....I can't imagine what the heck you're talking about.
Personally, I'd go to the clean-out that's outside....If you have trees and bushes get some of that copper sulfate to kill the roots in the drain.

In copper, there are three types generally use. They are K, L and M. Each has a different internal volume.
In steel pipe and various types of plastic pipes they are rated in Schedules. Most common seen are schedule 40 and schedule 80. The schedule indicates the pressure rating and the higher the schedule number the thicker the wall of the pipe. So, when you go from 40 to 80, the exterior diameter remains the same, but due to the thicker wall the interior diameter gets smaller, thus a given length of schedule 80 pipe will contain less water than the same length of schedule 40 pipe.

While a couple of feet won't make all that much difference, when you are calculating pipe volume of a system that has multiple line sizes, in a building lines come in big and get reduced as they work their way down to point of use, and literally thousands of feet of pipe in makes a huge difference.

[Blaine]

The problem with what Blaine posted is that it's only for one type of pipe. Most drain pipe is either ABS or cast steel.

Tell me what type of pipe you have, and how much water it takes to back it up and we can get close.

A 1/2" pipe is 1/2" no matter what....I can't imagine what the heck you're talking about.
Personally, I'd go to the clean-out that's outside....If you have trees and bushes get some of that copper sulfate to kill the roots in the drain.

In copper, there are three types generally use. They are K, L and M. Each has a different internal volume.
In steel pipe and various types of plastic pipes they are rated in Schedules. Most common seen are schedule 40 and schedule 80. The schedule indicates the pressure rating and the higher the schedule number the thicker the wall of the pipe. So, when you go from 40 to 80, the exterior diameter remains the same, but due to the thicker wall the interior diameter gets smaller, thus a given length of schedule 80 pipe will contain less water than the same length of schedule 40 pipe.

While a couple of feet won't make all that much difference, when you are calculating pipe volume of a system that has multiple line sizes, in a building lines come in big and get reduced as they work their way down to point of use, and literally thousands of feet of pipe in makes a huge difference.

Maybe in your AO, but for all my Washington State certificates, the I.D. was always used. (inside diameter) using the outside would be silly for the reasons you stated.

[Tycer]

So this is easy. Just tell your wife that the guys on lever guns.com says it can’t be repaired, and that she needs a new kitchen.

[new pig hunter]

Ignoring the technical, the clog is gonna happen wherever it feels like happening. Clogs know nothing about pipe diameters and cubic feet and the time of day. So get a 500 foot snake and hope you get lucky.

I say that only somewhat in jest because only 3 weeks ago I had a major plumbing clog in the kitchen sink. My Seabee pal, a professional plumber, brought over his 1/4"-diameter motorized snake-er-a-tor and fired it up. Where we figured the clog would be ..... nope. With the sink half-full of water he continued to shove the snake down the pipe further and further and further and even further still. Even he, a pro, was getting concerned he'd run of out snake. Finally, whammo, the water begins to drain out of the sink as the clog is reached and snake'd out.

After all that, he figured he had no less than 10 feet of snake in the pipe. We both figured 5 feet at the max ...... and the clog had no intention of cooperating with our science.

[FWiedner]

Wow, I just jam it in there till it gives,lol

Hmmm, that doesn't quite sound right.

Yeah it does...

[jeepnik]

Blaine, I can't speak for Washington state. But here's a data sheet from a pipe outfit. It shows O.D., I.D and other info for the pipe sizes I normally encounter. Pick any O.D., which is what industry uses to identify pipe size and you'll see that the I.D., thus volume per foot, are different between schedules 40 and 80.



The same relationship applies to pvc type piping.

Tubing, however, is normally sized by the I.D. Thus a 1/2" tubing with a higher pressure rating will have the same I.D. as a lower pressure rating, but will have a larger O.D.

[Malamute]

Im not understanding what any pipe volume calculation has to do with figuring out where it is. If its clogged, it has water standing in it. If it slowly goes down over time, then you pour more in, whos to say where the level was? Or how much is getting by if its draining slowly. Get a snake, if it works, great, if not, get a longer one. Its most likely in the P or S trap under the sink, if not, the snake will find it, or not. If this is the only thing in the house thats not draining well, its most likely in the trap or close to it.

Rather than trying to do calculations that probably wont help, did you just see what snakes are available to buy or rent, or just go get one? The ones that coil up in the drum are OK for light duty, and dont get much gunk all over when pulling them out.

If the problem is roots in the drain line in the yard, there will probably be other drains that arent working well, and a snake isnt likely to do much, it needs to be root augered out.

Is the P or S trap glued together or does it have nuts holding it together? Take it apart and see if the clog is in the trap. Most modern houses dont use the old nasty metal drain traps, or if they did, hopefully used better quality ones than were used back in the 1900s. Those were mostly destroy to remove and replace with plastic when done items. Plastic doesnt get corroded and eaten through like metal traps, even brass ones. All the main drain lines are probably plastic also, which is much easier to work on or replace as needed for whatever reason. I hate working on the old iron ones.

When I had an apartment building, the over the counter common store drain unclogger stuff was not very good. I got the stuff plumbers use, its much more potent, and can be very dangerous if misused to accidentally spilled if its in a drain line and you open it. Wear safety glasses when handling it.

[jeepnik]

Blaine and I went off on a tangent. But the OP was probably figuring that if he poured a gallon down the drain, and it filled up, assuming a pretty solid clog, and he knew the pipe diameter he could get close to figuring out how far down the line the clog was located. You could be close, but as mentioned it really isn't critical.

Oh by the way, I generally recommend not using drain cleaner. It seems easier, but doesn't do as good a job as the commercials show. A good snaking, or better yet rootering, usually works better and lasts longer.

[Blaine]

Blaine and I went off on a tangent. But the OP was probably figuring that if he poured a gallon down the drain, and it filled up, assuming a pretty solid clog, and he knew the pipe diameter he could get close to figuring out how far down the line the clog was located. You could be close, but as mentioned it really isn't critical.

Oh by the way, I generally recommend not using drain cleaner. It seems easier, but doesn't do as good a job as the commercials show. A good snaking, or better yet rootering, usually works better and lasts longer.

Tubing, however, is normally sized by the I.D. Thus a 1/2" tubing with a higher pressure rating will have the same I.D. as a lower pressure rating, but will have a larger O.D.

That's what I said to begin with.... The only way to calculate the volume of a pipe is ID...That gets REAL important when calculating head and a pump curve.

[zoner]

if it's a kitchen sink drain you should be able to poke out the clog with 6' of snake or less....if it takes more snake than that the clog will be in the main line. First run your snake in the cleanout thats outside....easiest thing to do and you might clear it there. If that doesn't work then pull the trap under the sink and run the snake into the trap arm(where the trap connects to the sewer). Refrain from using drano or some other drain clearing solution. Looks like a easy way to go but normally that stuff won't unclog a stopped drain....it will just get all over you when you finally get around to using a snake to unplug your drain. Calculating how far down the line the clog isn't gonna help you much. Fact is it's plugged and you need to snake it out. It's most likely plugged up where the sink line connects to the main sewer(a combo fitting).....like i said it shouldn't take more than 6' of snake to unplug it.

[marlinman93]

Not sure how calculating pipe fill, or volume is going to help? Since there's likely standing water in the pipe now, any volume poured in to measure it will be in error. Just stuff as much snake in there as you can and then check it to see if the clog is unplugged. It's plumbing, not rocket science.

[BrianSH]

Bought a 15 ft snake at wm for $17. Today I got my gumption up to give a few things a try.
Medium story shorter, started under the sink, unscrewing the trap and sundries. Seemed to be 8-9ft in. Gave 'er the full 15ft with a bit of the old in-out-in-out action.
Seemed to work, stoppered the sink and washed up with hot soapy water, added 3/4 cup of bleach, pulled the stopper and away they went.
I do appreciate the advice and moral support.

Another question: I am on a normal city water sewage system, no septic tank. Would an occasional dose of rid-x help to eat out the gunk that's might be building up in the pipes? But if it will eat the poop and food particles.....
- Brian

[Blaine]

Another question: I am on a normal city water sewage system, no septic tank. Would an occasional dose of rid-x help to eat out the gunk that's might be building up in the pipes? But if it will eat the poop and food particles.....

No. RidX is only for septic tanks. It restores the bacteria that break down the gunk. A non-lye drain cleaner is what you want. Also, I waste a little hot water and let it run for a bit. Helps flush out the pipes. Grease is a pipe killer so get as much off your pots, pans, and dishes as possible before washing them.

[jeepnik]

I think what Blaine is describing are the enzyme type drain cleaners. They do a fantastic job of keeping drains clean. Just add a bit, as directed by the manufacturer, on a regular schedule and they do a great job. Industry uses them quite a bit. But be aware, if your drains are old and have years of build up the enzymes can cause a clog initially. But, it's usually pretty easy to snake out the clog if it occurs.

Some of the enzymes will even go after roots. This is good for the old clay pipe. The newer ABS usually just gets clogged with organic material that goes down the drain. The enzymes do a fantastic job on these.

One part of my business is selling enzymes that will literally eat things like oil and grease. Stuff is pretty amazing and are vey low maintenance.

[cas]

How odd. I spent a good portion of my life doing this work. Family started in the business in 1946 and still doing a little of it today.

With that said... I am totally baffled by this thread.

[Blaine]

How odd. I spent a good portion of my life doing this work. Family started in the business in 1946 and still doing a little of it today.

With that said... I am totally baffled by this thread.

Then, throw in your 2 cents worth.

[jeepnik]

On the plus side it looks like most folks here can snake their own drains. The general public is quite so smart these days.

Heck, hand them a pipe wrench and a good 70 to 80 % probably couldn't figure out how to adjust the jaws.

The best example of the dumbing down of the species is a door at a high tech company. On one side is a sign that says push, on the other pull. Mind you the push side has a push bar, the pull side has a pull handle, and if you can't look at the hinges and figure out which what it swings you need a care taker.

But they had to put the signs on the door because several people walked into it. One actually broke her nose. And these are the young people who will be caring for us in our old age. We are doomed. Doomed I tell you.

[Stevie]

If you have good pipes...the 'Liquid Lightning' will eat a clog...it's like 3000% sulfuric acid...smells bad....makes pipes extremely hot(so no old poly-butyl grey pipe)...read warnings on the bottle! It's way more potent and effective than any other liquid drain cleaner I've ever seen...in fact I've never observed any other liquid or crystal drain cleaner that worked....

[jeepnik]

3000%? Actually only 44.25% per the Material data sheet (which are obsolete and have been replaced by Safety Data Sheets) that I could find on line.

I regularly use 98% sulfuric acid in waste water applications for pH control. This is some pretty potent stuff. Even 44% is nothing to sneeze at so be darned careful when using any sort of corrosive drain cleaned.