Need Puppy Help

[Blaine]

Thor is a pretty good pup......But, he's hard headed. He is litter box trained and knows what to do, but: At least once a day, he decided to go right BY the litter box. I doesn't matter if the box is perfectly clean or if I'm there or not......I've showed him the mess everyday and swatted him while holding his face in the doo everyday for several weeks.......He does not go anyplace else in the house......This is almost getting to be deal breaker for me. I really love the little guy, but I'm not gonna clean the floor everyday....... Did I say that most of the time, he uses the litter box, it's just a pinched loaf once a day......Arggggh

[Chuck 100 yd]

Blane, Wish I had a pat answer! But those kind of habits can be hard to brake. All I can suggest is be presistant and a good butt whackin with a rolled up piece of paper wont hurt him, except for his feelings
Maybe put some kind of pad there to protect the floor until he gets the idea.

[Old Ironsights]

Ok... non traditional, but...

Stop acting like a human. Treat the pup like a dog.

Really.

Get on all fours, grab him by the throat, slam him to the groung and growl into his face... or better, bite his neck fur and growl fiercely.

Seriously.

It's hard for us flat-face folks to nip properly, but we can certainly show displeasure in a way that is genetically ingrained.

You have to be the ALPHA. Period. Poop doesn't matter. Human Scolding isn't getting across. You need to reestablish ALPHA order.

Make him pee himself while exposing his belly. When he does that, you got your point across. That's how Canines/Lupines interact.

Try it. It works for Cats (with feline tweaks) too....

[Grizz]

Blaine,

Does he watch you clean up his mess? If he sees you fix it, you're telling him that's where you want him to stuff. You've made his kennel area the crapper.

Do you walk him after you feed him, let him out to stuff outside somewhere? If you take him out about 10 minutes after he eats he'll start crapping outside.

His kennel area is his den and dogs won't normally stuff in their den, unless someone teaches 'em to do it.

OI is right about the alpha thing, but have you ever seen a dog swat another dog with rolled up newspaper? Just grabbing him by the jowls and shaking his head a little will get his attention. Not hard enough to rattle his gray cell, just enough to mess with his equilibrium; that tells him you're the big dog. Right now he thinks you're the custodian.

Also, alpha dogs don't rub any other dog's nose in stuff. It doesn't send the message you think it does.

[Bronco]

Howdy,
+1 for OI's insight.
Dogs understand a throat grab and shake way more that a swat. Your talkin their language now.
Hope it works out. Hard headed might be a sign of smarts and character .

John

[Lobo]

How about moving the liter box to "The Spot" for a few days, then slowly move it back where you want it.

Lobo in West Virginia

my new pup.....
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn81 ... esize1.jpg

[bsaride]

good replies, but one I would try first is to move the box over the spot he's using now.

[Blaine]

Yeah....actually, I do the Alpha thing every few days, but with my hand, not the choppers. Mama also shakes them by the scruff....that's where I hold him while working on his attitude.

[FWiedner]

I'd take him over to the loaf and give him my "What IS THIS?" speech.

Say it several times in loud and disapproving tones, and make him stay there while you do. He'll know what you're talking about. Then take the loaf and put it where you want it to be rather than where he left it. Don't throw it out, put it in the litter box and leave it there. Throw it out later.

Give him the speech when he does it wrong, and praise him when he does it right. Tell him he' a good boy. Be consistent. Do the same thing every time. There's no real reason to hit the dog or bully him beyond making him stay and listen to the "What IS THIS?" speech.

Takes time. I taught both of my pitbulls to stuff in the corner of my yard rather than wherever their butts happened to be pointing at grass, using this technique. Stubborn dogs. Took months, but both were making their deposits by my "poop can" before they were a year old, and still do 3 and 5 years later.

I guess they really appreciate being able to take a dump in peace.

[TedH]

It's been my experience that positive reinforcement is more effective than scolding. Praise him and give him treats when he does right. Most dogs love to please their people, if they know what it takes.

[gon2shoot]

Had a pup doing the same thing, he thought if his head was over the box it was close enough
Got a box with taller sides, made some noise about being INSIDE the box and the problem went away.
Think I just realised why the wife wants to close in the porch.

[Tycer]

I've had great luck with crate training. Most dogs do well with it. If he's in the crate, he won't be pooping.

[Blaine]

Yep, I'm doing it right pretty much according to youse Guys.....I'll so the alpha dog in front of the mess the next time...... I wonder if he starts in the box and jumps out before he's done? And, the sides of his box is much higher then his butt...... Ah, well....he's still a puppy....

[blueroan]

Watch Cesar Millan aka the dog whisperer on national geographic channel. It's all about who is the leader and it's a physchological method that is explained very well. The wife gave me his book BE THE PACK LEADER when we got an Australian Shepherd puppy March 2d; just before big snow and a lot of negative weather for training a dog to go outside! (He sure was fun to watch in snow over the top of his back; getting rolled around by the other dogs and coming back for more!)

The suggestions on other posts are good. Watch the show for some explanations. I lucked out because we have four other dogs (too many, I know!) and the pack is a big help training/socializing a puppy...the others watch him all the time and a lot closer than I can.

[JReed]

I agree with the Alpha male technique. You dont have to hurt him to make it work. Forcefully put the dog on his back hold him by the throat and growl and speak in growling tones telling him what he did wrong. Show teeth and curl your lips back. If you watch adult dogs with younger dogs they do the same thing when they get out of line. As I said dont hurt the dog it is all about a show of force and making the dog understand that you are in charge and wont tolerate missbehavior in terms he understands.

[Blaine]

I agree with the Alpha male technique. You dont have to hurt him to make it work. Forcefully put the dog on his back hold him by the throat and growl and speak in growling tones telling him what he did wrong. Show teeth and curl your lips back. If you watch adult dogs with younger dogs they do the same thing when they get out of line. As I said dont hurt the dog it is all about a show of force and making the dog understand that you are in charge and wont tolerate missbehavior in terms he understands.

That used to work on my squad, too......I wasn't allowed to make them pee theirselves, though.......

[Noah Zark]

I'd take him over to the loaf and give him my "What IS THIS?" speech.

Say it several times in loud and disapproving tones, and make him stay there while you do. He'll know what you're talking about. Then take the loaf and put it where you want it to be rather than where he left it. Don't throw it out, put it in the litter box and leave it there. Throw it out later.

+1. Throw the pup on it's side with a throat lock, face next to the loaf but not in it. Repeat in a loud, low, growled voice "NO!" with a firm shake. Then immediately put the offending tootsie roll in the litter box, and lift the pup into the box. Again, hold the pup facing the loaf and in a much more pleasant voice, say "Good dog."

Try to catch him in the act. When he's inside the box, give him pats and a few "Good dog!" comments. When he's squatting outside the box, bark a sharp, loud, "NO!" and pick him up and place him in the box, with a "good dog" or two once he's in there and finishes up.

Expect to have to lather, rinse, repeat several times before it takes.

Another procedure is to remove the litter box for periods of time after he poops. Then watch the time and him closely for signs that he needs to go again. Place the box back in the spot and put him in it each time.

Noah

[2ndovc]

I'd take him over to the loaf and give him my "What IS THIS?" speech.

Say it several times in loud and disapproving tones, and make him stay there while you do. He'll know what you're talking about. Then take the loaf and put it where you want it to be rather than where he left it. Don't throw it out, put it in the litter box and leave it there. Throw it out later.

+1. Throw the pup on it's side with a throat lock, face next to the loaf but not in it. Repeat in a loud, low, growled voice "NO!" with a firm shake. Then immediately put the offending tootsie roll in the litter box, and lift the pup into the box. Again, hold the pup facing the loaf and in a much more pleasant voice, say "Good dog."

Try to catch him in the act. When he's inside the box, give him pats and a few "Good dog!" comments. When he's squatting outside the box, bark a sharp, loud, "NO!" and pick him up and place him in the box, with a "good dog" or two once he's in there and finishes up.

Expect to have to lather, rinse, repeat several times before it takes.

Another procedure is to remove the litter box for periods of time after he poops. Then watch the time and him closely for signs that he needs to go again. Place the box back in the spot and put him in it each time.

Noah

Catching him in the act is extremely important. Dogs have very short memory and yelling or beating them after the fact does little good. They know you're mad but have no idea why.

[Pete44ru]

My $0.02 ? Toss the litter box & get anal, for a little while, about taking the pup outside fairly often.

[dr walker]

A litter box????? for a dog. I hope it starts working for you. If it doesnt you could always get a cat.

[Rusty]

When my dad was house breaking a pup he would feed the dog, only letting it eat for about 5 minutes. After that they're done. Then he would ready the pup to go outside. While getting ready he would tear a paper match out of a book of matches. He would put the match in his mouth head first so it would be getting wet from his saliva. Once outside in the area where he wanted the pup to do it's business he would take the pup by the tail and stick the match up his but so the head was inside. This would cause discomfort to it's but and it would do it's business ASAP to get rid of the match.

CAUTION: DON'T USE THE MATCH MORE THAN ONCE!

[Hobie]

Thor is a pretty good pup......But, he's hard headed. He is litter box trained and knows what to do, but: At least once a day, he decided to go right BY the litter box. I doesn't matter if the box is perfectly clean or if I'm there or not......I've showed him the mess everyday and swatted him while holding his face in the doo everyday for several weeks.......He does not go anyplace else in the house......This is almost getting to be deal breaker for me. I really love the little guy, but I'm not gonna clean the floor everyday....... Did I say that most of the time, he uses the litter box, it's just a pinched loaf once a day......Arggggh

Never do what you've been doing, i.e. swatting or shoving his nose in it. He's rebelling. You must only praise/reward positives and as immediately as possible. Dogs don't remember the way we do and don't connect the act and the punishment anyway. It is ok if you're right there as he STARTS to go "no, no,no" and wisk him out the door. 5 minutes later is way too late. Of course he just might not be getting there quite in time and if it is right NEXT to the box he might just be missing.

I've found that "crate" training is best as they do not want to foul their own nest so to speak. But pups, especially, can't be left for long periods, without expecting "accidents".

We even taught our dog to ring sleigh bells hung from the back door knob when she wants/needs to go out. Yeah, there's some "false" alarms so she can check out a neat smell or see the other side of the closed door but by and large she's really good about ringing it just for needs...

[Hobie]

Forgot to mention that you should clean the "spot" with vinegar. That will eliminate the smell that turns the light on in his head.

I noticed several mentioned the scruff shake. I wouldn't do it for the poopin'. He still won't get the point. Clean it with vinegar, take him out more regularly, crate him when you're not there, get him a way to communicate with YOU, and praise him for every single thing he does right. I said that already, right?

[Pete44ru]

[He would put the match in his mouth head first so it would be getting wet from his saliva. he would take the pup by the tail and stick the match up his but so the head was inside.]
[CAUTION: DON'T USE THE MATCH MORE THAN ONCE!]

EEEWWWH ! ! [ ROTHLMAO ! ! ]

[AmBraCol]

When you find the mess already made - it's too late. Pups have a short memory and he probably does NOT understand why you're making such a fuss and probably doesn't draw a parallel between your getting after him and the mess on the floor.

When a dog eliminates they release certain pheromones. Their sense of smell is about 100 times greater than ours. So if he's marking the same spot, it's because there's something that's triggering it. You need to eliminate the odor completely, I don't know if the vinegar mentioned above will do it or not (haven't had a chance to try it out yet) but it would be a place to start. If not, pet shops in the US usually have odor eliminator chemicals you can purchase. A bit expensive but may be worth it.

Once you get the spot cleaned well, cover the area with old newspapers. Keep your emphasis on the box, but protect the area. This makes cleanup a lot easier. NEVER let the dog see you cleaning up, put him in his crate, lock him on the porch or whatever works while you clean up the mess. After you feed him, put him where he needs to go to "do his duty". An old stool or such should help to trigger his instinct. Keep watch and when he starts to do his job, start repeating "Hurry up. Hurry up." or some such. If you do this consistently for a while the very words will work as a trigger.

We're starting out a new pup for the first time in years. Just picked her up yesterday afternoon. We've been brushing up on this and other matters ahead of time. This one's pretty smart, I think she's going to catch on quickly. She did very well in her crate last night, didn't whine or or complain much until this morning. As soon as I took her out she drained her bladder, then just sniffed around. Back into the crate (it was an hour before the alarm went off) and she wouldn't settle down. Took her down, fed her and took her out again, this time she was serious and got right to business.

Our biggest mistakes with dogs tend to come from impatience and from not thinking like a dog or looking at what THEIR needs are.

[Hobie]

Our biggest mistakes with dogs tend to come from impatience and from not thinking like a dog or looking at what THEIR needs are.

Yep.

[Old Ironsights]

As far as "Litterboxes" & dogs go...

Most dogs don't like Litter/Sand.

If you REALLY have to be "Yuppie/Apartment Dweller" about a dog that goes inside, try this... seems like a better solution than a Litterbox... An Astroturf Pan:

http://www.hammacher.com/publish/74967.asp

The turf yarn is a unique construction specially designed for use with dogs, and its antimicrobial composition helps prevent odors. The tray is easy to empty and can hold up to two gallons of liquid. 1" H x 30" W x 20" L.

[piller]

My wife's Atlas terrier was crate trained when we got her. There were a few accidents in the house, but my wife is more stubborn than any dog could ever hope to be. The dog is now perfectly housetrained, even if she does think she is a human. Having a wife who is incapable of understanding the concept of "Quit" helps in training dogs.

[sore shoulder]

Blaine,

We're friends, so I'm going to be nice. You know I raise and train police and protection dogs, and have for many years. Rubbing the nose and swatting is not going to produce any positive results ever. It is usually accidental, and in spite of this, that a dog learns to go outside. All your doing is creating a negative reinforcement pattern with the dog. Also, grabbing the dogs throat and growling is absurd. We are not dogs, and this just confuses them. I have worked with a lot of Alpha male German Shepherds and Rottwielers that are trained to bite, and I've never had to do that ever. Besides the fact that those dogs will try to kick your butt if you did. We make it a point to avoid any negative voice patterns at all with our dogs unless we are trying to get them to out from a bite. Accent the positive, ignore or distract from the negative and you will have a dog that is ten times superior to one that is trained with compulsion.

Your smarter than the dog.

Here goes. Litter box? Just stop. Feed and water the dog. Take him outside right afterward, or if you notice him starting to "hunt". When you take him out and he does his business, praise him. This will teach him going outside is appropriate. I have had several dogs that had to be left home inside for long periods of time that would not go in the house, including the one I have now. If you make sure they "go" in the morning, they will be good till you come home unless they are sick. I've even trained them not to pelosi on the lawn, without a rolled up newspaper or "growling". One I had to retrain because I moved to a place where I kept him on grass, and he refused to go to the bathroom in the yard. If you use the same phrase everytime you take him out to go to the bathroom, this will actually begin to trigger the dogs bowel movement.

Old Ironsides. Please do not give anyone dog training advice ever again. Please.

[Old Ironsights]

..Old Ironsides. Please do not give anyone dog training advice ever again. Please.

It is advice I got from someone else and it worked for the dogs I had.

My "advice" is only my opinion based upon my experiences and observations. Nothing more. An opinion was asked for and one was given. That others are of the same opinion has nothing to do with my expressing it first.

In that you raise and train Professional Working Dogs, your advice obviously has more credence - especially in the realm of animals that are being trained to have targeted & focused agression - than my opinions, but that doesn't mean my opinions are not worth expressing.

But, I think a quote here is apropos:

"All I say is by way of discourse, and nothing by the way of advice. I should not speak so boldly if it were my due to be believed." - Montaigne

[Rexster]

Swatting and rubbing his nose in the mess are nothing short of cruelty, if unintentional on your part. The only time a puppy's mama punishes him physically is when he gets too rough or nippy during play, and that is the only times I will will physically discipline a dog. Showing a puppy where to poop and pee should be based solely on showing him what to do, and praising him when he does it right.

[Blaine]

Frank, he's already litter box trained..has been for monthes.....except for once a day, maybe.....There is only one of me and my schedule is not consistant all the time....to reiterate, even when he makes a mistake, it's ALWAYs within a few inches of the box.....I'm thinking, he starts in the box and don't realize he's not finished.......

[Blaine]

Swatting and rubbing his nose in the mess are nothing short of cruelty

Oh, please, Nancy.....we play harder than I swat him and dogs lick themselves.....The pack is very rough and cruel to the youngsters during the period they are learning their place.....

[Rexster]

Swatting and rubbing his nose in the mess are nothing short of cruelty

Oh, please, Nancy.....we play harder than I swat him and dogs lick themselves.....The pack is very rough and cruel to the youngsters during the period they are learning their place.....

I stand by what I said. Life is indeed rough, and nature can be cruel, but rubbing a pup's nose in its own feces is against nature. I have housetrained numerous canines, including some that were discarded by their prior owners for being incorrigible house-messers. (My wife is an unofficial dog-broker at her job, finding homes for dogs, and finding dogs for people; we end up keeping the real problem children, but even the one I almost named "Pee-Pee-Feetie" finally came around, and he was also copraphagic; no telling what his prior owners had done to him in misguided housetraining attempts.) Let the pup know what it is supposed to do; it WANTS to please you. Rubbing its nose in feces may induce it to start copraphagia, because it thinks you WANT it to eat feces.

Don't think I am not a believer in firm discipline when necessary; I have really slammed a couple of dogs when the time was right for it. But, you have to slam a dog at just the right moment; it has to be corrective, not just punitive.

Don't be afraid to use a kennel/crate to contain the dog when it is unattended. Let the dog out of the crate, take it where it is supposed to do its business, and praise it when it does it right. After many repetitions of doing it right, it becomes a habit, and dogs are creatures of habit. We have eight dogs divided between two homes, and all but one are crated for a significant part of the day. The one exception is so big a crate for him would cost a young fortune, and take up too much space. He is a living bear rug; one of his nicknames is "Household Bear."

I will concede a lack of knowledge about this litter box thing; that is one variable in your situation that I cannot address; I have always trained dogs to go outside.

[AmBraCol]

it has to be corrective, not just punitive.

Excellent point. Same with kids. Folks tend to lose their temper and slap kids or pets around. That accomplishes little, if anything, positive. We brought home a calm, quiet little bundle of joy last Friday. Five days later she's bouncing around the place full of energy and life. Amazing what proper nutrition and a modicum of proper care will do for a dog. We're fortunate in that we've a walled back yard where she can safely roam to her heart's content. And she's learning quickly. With two quick sessions she's learned to not snap for a doggie biscuit, but to receive it (relatively) gently. Pups want to please, you should see her trying to help me hoe the weeds... And the crate idea is the best thing I've learned (you CAN teach an old dog owner new tricks - if he's willing to listen). She can control herself for hours in the crate and is ready to go when we release her. Just think of the crate as her "den", just like a wild canid might use. It's not punishment nor cruel if used properly and she gets plenty of exercise and attention. Now, just shutting them in for 23 hours a day - THAT would be cruel, but for a few hours at a time spaced out with romp and play time and feeding and elimination breaks, it works well.

[Blaine]

I really appreciate ALL the good advice. I've seen how bird dogs and other hunting dogs are trained and I don't come to within a percent of how rough other trainers are, honest!

[DennisD]

I agree with what has already been said about short memory. Your pup is most likely wondering why it's nose is getting rubbed in poop. Also about making sure to clean up every last scent (there are commercially available cleaners for pet odors) and using canine language. I've never heard of dog litter boxes; good luck, hope it works out for you.

If someone else pointed it out I missed it, but through reading and personal experience I learned that dogs can be taught to go on command. I took my pooch out very often when young. I watched till I noticed she was about to go, then started saying the command words. I used "find your spot". As soon as she started eliminating (either version) I praised her verbally. They will get the message about asking to go out. She even learned to give a particular signal to go out for doing her duty as apposed to just wanting to go out for a walk. Consistency is very important. First thing in the morning and right after getting home from work turned out to be the proper times for her.

[sore shoulder]

I really appreciate ALL the good advice. I've seen how bird dogs and other hunting dogs are trained and I don't come to within a percent of how rough other trainers are, honest!

Some of those bird dog trainers are a little too proud of thier "firmness" with their dogs. I abhor shock collars, and the last Schutzhund club I was in rarely used them. I refuse to use bark collars. I can train a dog to heel without a leash and maintain perfect eye contact while doing it, with out ever using a correction or using a choker or a pinch collar. As far as I'm concerned using force is an unrefined cheap shortcut used merely to bend a dogs will to your own. I care way to much about my friends to treat them that way.

I recall the first dog I used reward based training exclusively with. Then one day while polishing his heeling for a show I decided to use the pinch collar in order to correct a small abberation. When I gave him the snap, he gave me such a look of hurt and betrayal I will never forget it. We were friends, why would I do that to him? The answer was simple, it was for me, not him. I then realised all that correction that trainers were using was for selfish self aggrandizment, not appreciation of the animal and it's abilities. That dog never took first place, but he came close, and I was much prouder of him for doing it without using force as many of the other dogs were, and that dog is a much better protection dog in a pinch than most of those compulsion dogs will ever be, I've seen him in action and it wasn't pretty. The prize is being able to bond and work with these unique and loyal creatures.

Here is what reward based training looks like.

Total focus on me, even though he wants that tug toy more than anything in the world right then.



Again, total focus.



Here is the ultimate in restraint by the dog. Many trainers cannot do this without using force. Force was never used on this dog. The bad guy is held immobile by the dog, and as long as the bad guy remains stationary and unthreatening he is ok.


Bad guy making a mistake.



The dog is saying "Come here you, I got somethin for ya."