POLITICS - My theory with respect to Buck Knives...

Marc Taylor · Post by **Marc Taylor** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:20 pm

You can guess what happened...

Buck Knives were being made and sold in the U.S. and everyone had a great feeling about the knife in their sheeth.

A Union moved in and tried to set up shop with the workers at Buck Knives. They eventually got a foothold and ran the wages through the roof in order to grow the Union; NOT because there was genuine interest in the living conditions of the Buck Knife worker, which was fine before they moved in, but because the Union machine is a machine which must continually be fed in order for the managers at the top to continue to be latent, rich executives.

The age-old Buck Knife company drew a line between management and union worker, and a rift was caused.

The Union's contract expired and they wanted to negotiate: Higher wages, Grand Retirement with full bennies, etc., etc.

In order to stay in business as a brand, Buck took their manufacturing overseas...

The price of Buck Knives stabilized and management prospers because actually the price of production went DOWN.

We now have to purchase a foreign-made knife in order to own a knife with the Buck brand name attached to it.

Everyone lives happily ever after except that worker who lost the job and was abandoned by the Union when he no longer could pay his "dues".

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it...

Taylor

ursavus.elemensis · Post by **ursavus.elemensis** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:07 pm

I collect and run Lionel trains, which are basically made in China these days. On an open forum Internet chat, someone asked the President of Lionel LLC why the prices of trains have not come down now that the company moved production to China where the labor costs are lower. The President of the company, a guy named Jerry Calabrese, answered to the effect that the reasons for moving to China were not labor costs, and that while they are lower in china, that is only a secondary benefit to the company. He said that production based on high tech etching of casting molds was not available in the United States anymore because of a lack of personnel with the expertise and the training.

Something to think about.

Another thing to think about: There are less than 100,000 steel workers in the United States today. But 1 out of every 6 of us has a job (income) that is dependent on the import-export trade. Being down on the import side of trade is not really good for American workers. Many of them work in idustries and jobs that would evaporate without the importation of foreign made goods. Far more jobs, in fact, than the ones "being shipped overseas".

One more thing to think about: Comparative advantage is the economic conept that explains why production moves to other areas/countries/etc. Labor costs, governmental regulaiton, environmental regulation, etc, are all elements that factor into comparative advantage. But so is integrity of the legal system (for dispute resolution), so is protection of intellectual property, so is stability of the political system.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:23 pm

I thought Buck went to Idaho. They tried to settle in Portland OR but good old Portland in business unfriendly and would not cut them a deal on taxes like they do if you are a tree hugger. Gerber is in portland and still making good stuff there but I do have a Gerber pocket knife that is marked CHINA .

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:00 pm

Buck is in Idaho.
Denis

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:42 pm

Only china made stuff I will buy are absolute necessities that cannot be found made somewhere else, preferrably USA. I have a couple of Buck knives, but they were made long before Buck went to china. No more Bucks for me. NRA sent me a "Buck" knife a couple of years ago, it was made in china. Got rid of it.
On the bright side, I have a LOT less stuff and save a LOT of money because of all the products out there with American names on them that I probably would want if they were still made here. As it is, I look at something with a grand old American name on it, then see "Made in china" on it, I just put it down, shake my head and walk away.

miestro_jerry · Post by **miestro_jerry** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:57 pm

The best tactical knife I have ever seen is made in another country, Canada, made by Greg Lightfoot. I am a past member of that guild and the local guild, the best knife I carry I made, the best knife that I hunt with, I made.

My stainless steel comes from Japan, my damacus (pattern weld) comes from my smithy.

I carry two knives every day, my folder and my Swiss Army Executive.

So why do I need a Buck Knife?

Jerry

old goat · Post by **old goat** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 1:51 am

...The reasons companies are moving production out of the USA, has as much to do with getting around the laws from the EPA, and worker protection laws, as lower wages. The unions are a "red herring" that people will accept. If you think unions are the reason for moving production out of the USA, ask yourself why non-union plants are also moving out of country.

...old goat

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 5:24 am

old goat wrote:...The reasons companies are moving production out of the USA, has as much to do with getting around the laws from the EPA, and worker protection laws, as lower wages. The unions are a "red herring" that people will accept. If you think unions are the reason for moving production out of the USA, ask yourself why non-union plants are also moving out of country.
...old goat

+1 Now there's someone looking at the big picture.

Something else that will blow your socks off.

Check out how many acres of good old USA real estate
is now foreign owned.

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:35 am

With the weakening dollar you will see more foriegn owned real estate in this nation.

I do my best to refrain from anything made in China. That trade will be our downfall as I believe it already has .

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:37 am

About 10 years ago I was on vacation in Tn. and we visited Smokey Mtn Knife Works while they were having "Chuck Buck day." Chuck himself was there and he would sign any Buck knife you bought from them there. I also had a 110X with stag handles I carried every day. Mine had the standard blade with the stag while most of the ones I saw were damascus with stag. I pulled it out to show Chuck and asked him why they weren't building any more like this? He told me that that work was done in their custom shop and they had to shut it down. He said that the people working in the custom shop thought they were worth more than the company could afford to pay them and the custom shop was a losing situation so they put the people from the custom shop back in the standard production line and that was the end of that.
A lot of things are being made in China because a lot of people shop the price tag before they check the country of origin.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:56 am

"We now have to purchase a foreign-made knife in order to own a knife with the Buck brand name attached to it."

Many Buck knives are still made in the USA.

The Department of Labor, OSHA, The EPA, and labor unions make it impossible to make a profit in the US. Ungrateful and lazy employees that can't pass a drug test don't help either. I've been on both sides of the fence and I don't blame companies for moving.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 8:48 am

You fellows have not mentioned one of the biggest, if not the biggest problem. China now holds a major chunk of the American national debt. When the USA is indebted to China in a major way, the USA must dance to China's tune, and that includes trade agreements, etc. The USA is a consumer nation that tends to consume more than it can pay for, which is why the American dollar is on a steady slide. It has fallen substantially in the past year and is now worth slightly less than the Canadian dollar. Forecasts in a business article I read a few months ago are predicting it may level off at around half of what it is worth right now. Unfortunately, if the Democrats gain power, it is likely to exacerbate the situation, even to the point of an economic collapse. There is no easy short term solution to this problem.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:05 am

As the American dollar continues to decline in value, American goods become cheaper overseas. Travel to the US also becomes cheaper. I think we are letting it decline in value on purpose.

3 screw · Post by **3 screw** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:33 am

My wife brought home new tableware I looked at it and it said made in china
ok so 3 weeks have gone by guess what it's rusting already and it say's
1810 stainless yah right so I did a search on US made tableware guess
what no tableware has been made in the US since 2004 Onieda was the
last manufacture so now what just live with it?
I think it's sad we don't even make knives and forks any more

Al

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:59 am

How easy it is to just jump up & blame a union.

Sometimes I think we are as zombieized in our thinking as the Democrats.

It simply costs more to produce things here paying a decent salary than it does many other places. I doubt that unionized buck employees were or are making much if anything more than similarly skilled employees in a nonunion shop. I guess maybe folks would be happy knowing the guy making their American hunting knife was making $5 a week & feeding his family a couple bowls of rice & some cat meat for supper.
Think about this, if employers would treat people fairly on a regular basis then unions would go away. But they dont & they wont so unions are here to stay.

We bitch & moan but arent willing to spend a premium on mundane things so mundane things arent made here anymore.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:11 am

Unions or a union had little or nothing to do with Buck's move to Idaho.

For years, Buck Knives were made in El Cajon, CA. The laws in CA kept getting more and more stringent and as time passed the PRODUCTION of certain style knives were outlawed in CA. As a result, Buck had to stop making some of their knives in CA and sourced them out. Buck Knives finally move lock-stock-and-barrel to I think Idaho and now they make all their own knives. Maybe one or two lines still made in China.

An example of knife makers in CA is Cold Steel Knives. They make most of their knives in CA but the ones in their line that can't be made in CA are made in I think TX.

An example of knives that can't be made in CA is a Dagger or a knife that is sharpened on both the top and bottom of the blade (i.e., a bowie knife with the blade sharpened on the bottom and the top part of the blade for a couple of inches toward the rear.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:05 pm

lets abolish all union's and go back to the good old days. 12hour, 6 day aweek at straight time. no man is worth more than a dollar a day. bring back child labor . let's multilate and kill 10 yr olds. vacations, who needs them. your get one day off a year, christmas, with no pay. health benefits, yeah right, only for our elected officals, payed thru our tax dollars. pensions, only for our elected officials, work til you die. whatever compensation you get today, was fought for in blood from those dam commy unions, you reap the benifets, whether you belong or not. it's eazy to blame the demise of the middle class on the greedy unions. look back on history, there would be no middle class without the unions

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:35 pm

tman wrote:lets abolish all union's and go back to the good old days. 12hour, 6 day aweek at straight time. no man is worth more than a dollar a day. bring back child labor . let's multilate and kill 10 yr olds. vacations, who needs them. your get one day off a year, christmas, with no pay. health benefits, yeah right, only for our elected officals, payed thru our tax dollars. pensions, only for our elected officials, work til you die. whatever compensation you get today, was fought for in blood from those dam commy unions, you reap the benifets, whether you belong or not. it's eazy to blame the demise of the middle class on the greedy unions. look back on history, there would be no middle class without the unions

Thats about what you'd need to compete with China.
Its always easy to just rant & point but things are rarely so simple.
I got a Chinese Schrade not long ago. Seems well made, wasn't expecting it but life goes on.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 6:54 pm

you can't compete with china. slave wages, child labor, no epa at all. don't blame the unions. it was your politicians, starting with bush 1, including clinton, and bush 2, who sold out to the wta. caint fight city hall, when the decks stacked against you.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:30 pm

[quote="tman"]you can't compete with china. slave wages, child labor, no epa at all. don't blame the unions. it was your politicians, starting with bush 1, including clinton, and bush 2, who sold out to the wta. caint fight city hall,

YADA, YADA, YADA

coyote nose · Post by **coyote nose** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:15 pm

I worked 22 years in various non union jobs where I was a peon and treated like DIRT by management, for a wage where i could barely squek by while the hotshot managers made a killing on my labor. Then 9 years ago got a job in a union shop. Management still WANTS to treat me like dirt but is limited to do it, and they still make a killing on my labor, but at least now I am making a nice wage. This one is a no brainer. Union all the way!!!

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:17 pm

A lot of unions started because a lot of men died, construction workers and miners especially. Without unions or some form of worker cohesion the employers would gladly return us to the pit pony and child labour days. Just look at what happened here in Australia under little johnnys industrial relations act. Individual workplace agreements that state security guards will work for $15 an hour flat rate for up to 12 hrs a day with no extra for weekends, nights or public holidays. Of course little johnny said no worker would be worse off, so the agreement gave options such as "prefered hours *days *nights *weekends *public holidays. please tick hrs prefered", if you didn't tick all 4 your form was "incomplete" and not accepted.

A lot of things are being made in China because a lot of people shop the price tag before they check the country of origin.

I would love to buy Australian, or American, but what you and I produce costs more than I can afford. Take a 1911 pistol for example, we dont make one in Aust but if we did it would cost $1500, we can buy a USA Springfield for about $1500, or we can buy a Norinco "made in China" for $600, and I understand they are generally a good reliable gun, and I consider a weeks pay to be an affordable price for a good gun.

and just so you dont think I'm way off topic, I was looking for a good knife before xmas and could find nothing but chinese knives anywhere in Perth, not a single Aust. or USA knife anywhere, eventually I found a place that sold German made Puma knives, so I got the cook to get me one of them for xmas, I think with care it will last me the rest of my life at least.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:29 am

Now all of the union talk has got me confused... I thought all of America's problems were caused by illegal aliens.

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:53 am

I bought a yellow handled Case Trapper with the chrome vanadium blades a few months ago. It is exactly like the one my Daddy, Uncles, and Granddaddy carried when I was a kid. One blade is stamped "Case XX" and the other is stamped "USA". I paid $32 for it and it is worth every penny. It is literally as sharp as a razor and holds its edge.

The Case is my favorite knife and my Marlin 1894C is my favorite rifle.

Seek out those products that are made in the USA and keep the traditions alive. Buy them so they will be around for our children and grandchildren.