OTish: Preferred loads for 44 Russian?

[Killer Kanuck]

Or should I have titled it "HEY KIRK!!!!!"

Finally got my hands on a S&W 44DA, and since I'm about as patient as a 6 year old on Christmas Eve waiting for the thing, I figured gathering load recipes might help pass the time till it's in my sweaty not-so-little hands.

So, I plan on mostly sticking to black, but does anyone have any safe, mild smokeless loads (I know - used at my own caution). And who has the best price on brass?

I need to get rid of those white grips, and see if I can track down a new hammer pin screw (anyone know of a place?), but she's in not bad shape for the price.

[Sixgun]

Yo Killer,
Nice old 'Smith you have there. Yep,--those grips gotta go! I don't know offhand where you can get wood ones at but hey, spray paint those white ones satin black and rub 'em in the dirt a little. (for real)

A safe smokeless load I have used is 3 grains of Bullseye or 4 grains of Unique with a 250 cast. These loads will deliver about 600 fps. Just make sure your cylinder indexes correctly or you could be eating steel. (old steel at that!) As far as brass is concerned, you can buy a box or two of Black Hills loaded ammo and shoot it off or just trim down some 44 Specials.------------Sixgun

[Lefty Dude]

My 44 special load that I use for CAS competition in my Colts is 3.5 grains of American Select with a 200 gr. bullet. This is a very mild target type load. It shoots 3/4" groups at 15 yards on the bench. I agree, Unique is a lower pressure burning powder.

You might have a Gun Smith check it out before you put a round down range.

[KirkD]

David Chicoine is an expert gunsmith that has published a few books, one on the S&W Model 3's. I emailed him last week, after hearing that he had seen a lot of damaged Model 3's (Schofields, Old Russian, Russian, New Model #3's, and the first model DA's) from smokeless. He told me that the damage is usually a stretched top strap, and that he has examined literally HUNDREDS that are stretched from using smokeless powder. Virtually everyone I know who uses smokeless in these old sixguns uses Unique, or a fast pistol powder. There is a point when the bullet is entering the forcing cone, and the base of the cartridge case is pressing against the face of the rear frame, when the bullet-chamber-case is completely sealed, forming essentially a very powerful hydraulic piston pushing against the forcing cone and the back of the frame. There is always a second pressure spike when a bullet hits the rifling lands at this point, creating an impact that can stretch the top strap a minute amount with each firing. For the same velocity, Unique and other fast smokeless powders, give a much higher pressure spike than black powder. The second pressure spike is greatly increased if a HARD CAST bullet is used. These old guns were never meant for hard cast bullets. It is my belief that these hundreds of old S&W model 3's have had their top strap stretched by using fast smokeless powders and/or hard cast bullets.

Having said all of the above, I have been using my own smokeless load for the past couple years. To be more accurate, I've put a few hundred rounds through my original NM#3 and been measuring the top strap to see if there has been any stretching. Thus far, I've not been able to detect any stretching. Here's my load:

12.5 grains of 5744 under a 256 grain soft cast bullet (8 BHN) for 775 fps.

5744 is a lot slower than Unique and gives a much lower pressure spike for the same velocity. So far, it seems to be fine in my 1880-manufactured sixgun. If you do use Unique, or other fast powder, I think the velocity should be kept way down .... say around 500 fps. Sixgun's load at 600 fps may be fine, I don't know. Sixgun, are you measuring for any top strap stretching? I may continue to use my load and carefully measure the top strap. Others should do the same if you use smokeless. Here is the measurement: remove the cylinder and measure the distance between the entrance of the forcing cone and the rear face of the frame (where the bases of the cases rest during firing). Every top break will have a tiny bit of play due to the latch. You may not notice it normally, but if you test for it, you may be able to feel it. Your measurement should always be made with the play either pulled forward or pushed back. It doesn't matter which, as long as it is the same way every time.

I have an even older S&W 2nd Model American in 44 Russian, made in 1873. That one will only see black powder. I may even go black powder-only in both of them, if I see the faintest sign of stretching (.001") in the NM#3.

[Ysabel Kid]

KK -

Congrats - that looks like a sweet revolver.

Here is a bunch of loads from the Hodgdon website:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

I myself like both "Trail Boss" and "Tite Group" for reduced power loads. However, those would be in modern reproductions - with much better steel than the originals. I would go with Kirk's recommendation on AA 5744 for a smokeless round in an original, for the reason stated.

Good luck - let us know what you do!

[Killer Kanuck]

I found a spot that sells the black repro grips, so I think those will be going on it unless I can find a wood set.
After reading the issue with stretching - I think I may stick with black only (I'm going to do that with my Webley Mk1 once my shell holder arrives too).
The only local gunsmith that could take a look at it wouldn't know any more that me, so I think a tire and a length of rope will assist me in test firing (after a once over with a magnifying glass).

Anyone happen to know of any reasonably priced holsters that will fit a 44DA? There's a loop hole in the hunting regs here that just might (BIG might) allow me to load up some shotshells and hunt grouse with it this fall (yes, in CANADA )

[KirkD]

Even if it is legal, keep a low profile, so as not to rock the boat.