22 LR vs. 25 ACP in a Beretta Tip-up (model 21)...?

[AJMD429]

Still looking at other options, but for a 100 pound soaking wet female with equally petite wrist and hand muscles, these may be the best she can shoot AND practically conceal. She can shoot 44 Specials out of my Super Blackhawk and 9mm from my PT-92 fairly well but anything smaller snaps too hard, including a Ruger LCP. Not strong enough to pull trigger on most DA revolvers and even a 5-shot 38 she has trouble concealing in her work attire. NAA Mini-Revolver in 22 WMR she can shoot but it is a gun that involves too much fiddling to load and unload, and hammer let-down, which is fine at the range but invites accidents when rushed or distracted.

Anyway a few years back I'd have voted 22LR for cheaper ammo and therefore more practice, but not so sure now. Also too many misfires with my 22 LR ammo lately (even recent production stuff). Dunno reliability factor for 25 ACP though.

25 ACP is $398/1,000 and available https://alamoammo.com/pistol-ammo/25-au ... 67308?#xml, and IF you can find 22 LR of decent quality (CCI recommended by Beretta I believe), I could get maybe 2,000 rounds for the same cost, and CCI seems very reliable.

What ya think...

[wm]

What about a Seecamp 32 ACP?

I don't think there is much difference in performance between the 25 ACP and the better self defense offerings in 22LR these days. Practice with 22lr would be cheaper and accuracy and confidence that comes with practice could mean a lot. Anyway that would be my thought but I certainly don't think I am any sort of expert.

[Chris83716]

Have you checked out one of the Keltec's in 32? I had one of the Tomcats in 32 and switched to the Keltec. Much thinner and flater so easier to conceal, rated for P+ ammo, no safety/hammer to futz with.
Keltec is relatively inexpensive also.

Mine has been a good little gun.

Chris

[Malamute]

Claude Werner discussed the small guns. It may be in his blog (Tactical Professor) or on a forum. If you dont find it on his blog are are interested, PM me and I'll send a link to the forum.

Claude is pretty good. I think hes very up to speed on defensive shooting, and carrying in an NPE.

[AJMD429]

Thanks for all the interesting thoughts & I will look for that blog. North American makes a little flat 32 as well. She did like (within limits) a KelTek 9mm that was a bit bigger than the Ruger LCP and I did wonder if they made them in 380 as well do as to recoil a bit less in the larger (borderline too-large for her to CCW with) KelTek.

One advantage if she got the TipUp is that I have one in 22LR she could practice with even if she got the 25. May have to go to the gun store and do some fondling... (I know, a rough job but someone has to do it).

I've wondered about availability of ammo for some of the little 32's but like 25 ACP, if I found a case of 500 or so that would be plenty and I doubt there'd be any reloading. I figure with a gun like that 300 or so rounds will let you get proficient in handling and loading and unloading and gain confidence plus see if it functions flawlessly. After that emptying your carry-magazine every couple of months would be plenty. At that rate 500 rounds would last five years or so.

[JerryB]

A .32 might be OK, but between the .22 and .25 I would go with the .22 CCI Stingers. What about the Grizzley .32acp?

[Ji in Hawaii]

My kid sis in Florida when she got her CCW permit she opted for the Beretta Tomcat in 32acp. For her she said the larger grips of the Tomcat versus other small 32s like the Keltec, Ruger, NAA, made it much more comfortable to shoot. She also likes the tip-up barrel for ease of cleaning and load first round without wracking the slide. Not as tiny as a 22 or 25 but a more substantial cartridge and comfort.
As you already know 22 autos are picky about ammo as it is, and compounded by the less reliable rimfire ignition does not make for an ideal defensive arm. I still have a 22 auto pistol my dad got me as a wedding present of sorts over 34 years ago a stainless 22 auto Sterling model 302. This gun was just as picky as any 22 auto maybe even more so. I finally polished the feed ramp, and by experimenting with different ammo brands discovered that it was 100% reliable using both CCI Velocitor and CCI Stinger ammo. I can honestly say that these are the only two 22 rimfire rounds that I have never in 40+ years had a misfire. The polished feed ramp along with the extra oomph of Stringers and Velocitors has eliminated misfires and stove-piping. Now my Sterling has a solid stainless steel frame and slide so no problem shooting hyper velocity 22 ammo, an aluminum alloy frame Beretta may be a different story so inquire with manufacturer first. Taurus makes a reasonable fact simile to the Beretta too with lifetime warranty FYI. If a 22 rimfire I would stick with CCI with copper wash bullets for reliability.

[Grizz]

Hey Doc

ruger makes a 380 on the LC9 frame, which probably reduces the flip somewhat, but that gun is nearly the size of my xd9 sub compact. and 9s can use lower recoil ammo if it's necessary. but the LCP wins on concealment, and the new ones have a much reduced trigger weight and pull length. maybe there is a rental shop where that can be explored along with the other ones mentioned.

.32 keeps coming up as an interesting round, maybe the smaller diameter aids penetration compared to .380.
which, BTW, penetrates the same distance in attack jugs, when loaded with the flat meplat fmj, as the gold dot in my 9.

.380 is formidable. I just finished reading an account of a man being killed with one, and that's the third kill I've read about for the LCP. I don't know how many failures there have been, but it seems to do the work. so, something along those lines as a guide might help. and .22s penetrate like crazy too, considering.

I'd like to know what you discover and decide on. We're leaning toward getting more LCPs.

[wilko]

The beretta .22 i have is a wonderful and FUN gun to shoot. It is however not reliable and has no extractor which makes it harder to clear FTF. Consider it a range gun instead of a gun you would depend your life on.
The gun functions more reliable with stingers but the manual says not to use them, just a heads up.... i believe beretta used some kind of winchester ammo. If i could do it all over i would have gone for the .25

FUN FUN FUN range gun but never trust your life on one....

[jeepnik]

I've had a 21A in .25 acp for nigh on thirty years. It is a reliable firearm (I won't get into caliber wars). I also have some other similar sized autos in .22 lr. They are mechanically reliable, as well. But, the .22 lr's have more misfires.

The misfires are directly related to ammunition. Centerfire ammo tends to be more reliable in ignition than rimfire. In addition, the .22's tend to attract more debris (not sure it really matters as I've fired some pretty cruddy looking .22's that worked just fine.

Now the .25 acp is more expensive than the .22 lr. And yes, you can reload the .25 acp but it is an exercise in frustration with my big ole fumbly fingers.

In short, if it's a choice between the two, go with the .25 acp model.

[Old Ironsights]

I can't say enough god about the NAA Guardian .32acp

I bought mine BROKEN from a table at a gunshow in '98 or so for pennies on the dollar (broken because an idiot previous owner was a bit too "thorough" in his cleaning... ) and sent it to NAA to fix.

It was totally Refurbed and tested - total cost? Shipping from Spokane to Provo. Their "Lifetime Warranty" is exactly that - and transferrable.


It has since been my EDC &/or BUG in ALL circumstances where snakes aren't an issue - including swimming in Lake Michigan near Gary. I carry it in a wallet holster &/or a Laerdal CPR pocket mask case.


Here it is compared to my Derringer: There are 3 mags & 19 rounds there (vs. 6 reloads for the derringer)



(Yes, that's the derringer on the pocket mask case. The NAA fits too...)

Though it looks like a Seecamp, it eats ANYTHING you feed it, but it particularly fond of Fiocchi 60gr SJHPs which are still pushing 1000fps out of the tiny thing and expand well. The other round I carry (in the pipe & mag #1) is the Grizzley Extreme Defense all copper load, which is lighter and faster, but leaves razorblades in the target medium.

Now, it DOES bite a bit, but I can still knock over pepper poppers at 25yds even with its rudimentary sights. (The "guttersnipe" sight mod is a cool option...)

[Old Ironsights]

...What about the Grizzley .32acp?

Excellent ammo out of an NAA.

[Old Ironsights]

What about a Seecamp 32 ACP?

I don't think there is much difference in performance between the 25 ACP and the better self defense offerings in 22LR these days. Practice with 22lr would be cheaper and accuracy and confidence that comes with practice could mean a lot. Anyway that would be my thought but I certainly don't think I am any sort of expert.

Have you checked out one of the Keltec's in 32? I had one of the Tomcats in 32 and switched to the Keltec. Much thinner and flater so easier to conceal, rated for P+ ammo, no safety/hammer to futz with.
Keltec is relatively inexpensive also.

Mine has been a good little gun.

Chris

RE: Keltec & Seecamp .32s

Played with both before I got my NAA. The Keltec has a problem with RimLock in the magazine if you don't load them right. Makes a really ugly FTF.

The Seecamp was pretty much only useful with Silvertips as it wouldn''t eat anything else - and the mag release sucks.

[Old Ironsights]

...
.32 keeps coming up as an interesting round, maybe the smaller diameter aids penetration compared to .380.
which, BTW, penetrates the same distance in attack jugs, when loaded with the flat meplat fmj, as the gold dot in my 9...

http://stevespages.com/page8f32acp.html

http://edcforums.com/threads/finding-a- ... gun.97081/

[Old Ironsights]

Oh, another thing...

There are 2 people in the US Gun Industry that outclass everyone else: Tony Imperato from Henry and Sandy Chisholm from NAA. You can't beat either of them for their willingness to connect with their customers.

This is a "Buy American" moment...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/visit_sandy_chisholm.htm

http://sandychisholm.com/

[dsmith512]

Beretta also makes a 32ACP barrel tip up model. The 3032 Tomcat. Mine has the tritium night sights.

[cas]

I've owned both, they wouldn't be my first choice but the tip up barrel does make them safe and comforting. (feeling safe loading and unloading).

Even with quality ammo, I'd trust the .25 more, in firing, feeding and ejecting.

The .25 I had was an amazing gun. I regret selling it though I'm sure I would have a dozen times over since then. I sold it to buy a new 21 because I wasn't really carrying it, mostly just plinking, so the .22 was much cheaper to feed... even though I was loading my own .25Acp. The .25 was a 950B. Pre-68, no safety, made in Italy. I could sit down at the bench and sand bag the gun, and it would put the whole magazine into one slightly blurry hole at 7 yards. I often wondered what that gun would do with real sights.

[Lastmohecken]

I have owned those tip barrel guns before, and will echo what someone else said; for one if you are going to .22, I suggest staying with something like the Smith and Wesson J-frame revolver in .22 mag. That way if you have a misfire you can just roll on through it.

The tip up barrel guns don't have an extractor, and that makes it slow, to get back in operation, after a malfunction.

As far as autos go, you might want to try the Glock 42 in .380, I have one of those and it seems to be a pretty good gun, so far.

Also, one of the easiest small guns I have ever owned and shot is Colt Mustang Pocket Lite; it's accurate and reliable, but is a single action auto that needs to be carried cocked and locked or hammer down on a live round, which works pretty good for me, but I am very good a cocking it. But cocked and locked in a good pocket holster would work fine also.

I also have an LCP in .380 and the little .32 kel-tec, both are ok but I find then harder to shoot.

Taurus also makes a little .380 auto, that many claim has a better trigger action then the LCP or the Kel-tec, and I agree, based on just handling one, at the LGS.

As far as your first question .22 vs 25 auto, I would probably choose the 25 auto because they don't have the mis-fire issues that many .22 have in the little pocket pistols, but it would be a lot better to try to move up to at least .32 or better .380 if you can.

[jeepnik]

I picked up my 21 years ago when I had a serious bout with carpal tunnel. I was physically unable to rack a slide. Recoil was also darned near impossible to handle, from a pain aspect. That tip up barrel and miniscule recoil made it just about the only handgun I could fire.

On the plus side I was able to overcome the CT by simply resting and not doing the repetitive motion that caused it. Today, I'm very aware of what my hands and wrists are doing. I do not want not go thru that again.

Some years later my mom wanted a handgun. She was elderly and couldn't rack a slide and most DA revolvers had too long a trigger reach and pull pressure for her to use. That little model 21 came out again. Oh, and before you all get too excited, she also had, and preferred my little Mossbeg .410 model 500.

[Rusty]

The Glock .380 seems to be a lot more accurate/controllable according to some of the people Jr. shoots with. You might also look at the Sig 380 they make that looks like a miniature 1911.

[Thunder50]

I often carry a 21A in 22lr. It shoots the Remington bulk pack(20yr old) just fine and the newer CCI mini-mags. The federal bulk packs don't work. Tried a bunch of ammo to find a few brands that work 100%. If you get the 22lr, I would suggest doing just that. Check out the Tomcat too.

[vancelw]

.22 short has more muzzle energy than .25 acp. Go for the .22 LR version of whatever you recommend for her.

[walks with gun]

I'd stick with the 25, you want reliability more than anything.

[Pisgah]

I would pick the .25 in the Beretta, simply because in theory a centerfire, full-metal jacketed round will feed and fire more reliably than a rimfire. But I have a KelTec P32 and 750 rounds of FN flatpoint FMJ that does just fine in the role of what a friend calls "a nostril gun", as in,"shove it up the bad guy's --".

[MrMurphy]

Funny, I've seen 100lb soaking wet petite female shooters who shot 1911s and 9mm Glocks just fine....

Including one who's 4'10" tall and now a cop. Even with her full duty rig on she doesn't break 110lb.

I'd go with the Tomcat in .32 if she absolutely has to have a microgun. Because they're reliable. I don't much care for the NAA, it's heavier than it needs to be and the trigger pull is typically atrocious. Back in the 70s and 80s the Seecamp was awesome, these days........nah.

An LCR in .38 with wadcutters would be a light, small, controllable low recoil package and a .38 wadcutter (full wadcutter) is still a viable defensive round, more so than a .25. The LCR also has a very smooth, light trigger right out of the box. Better than any new S&W i've ever seen, and better than a few which have been worked over.

I've seen a couple guys killed with .22s and a few take hits from bigger rounds that didn't impress them, but I would not go below .380 or .38 Special without some real serious reasons.

Proper technique also helps racking slides for some women. Don't draw it back like a bow. Point the gun left (assuming a righty). Use whole left hand on top of slide. Push with right hand and push with left hand at the same time. Especially easier on bigger pistols, smaller guns just have less to hang on to.

The S&W Bodyguard .380 is small, light, has actual usable sights, and doesn't kick much. As does the new G42. Both would be viable defensive guns.

Same thing with hiding any of the above guns. I've seen a 5'1" female hide a 4" 1911 under a t-shirt. She was in excellent shape and knew guys weren't going to be looking at her waist. She wasn't dumb.....and she made the gun disappear.

[AJMD429]

Funny, I've seen 100lb soaking wet petite female shooters who shot 1911s and 9mm Glocks just fine....

Including one who's 4'10" tall and now a cop. Even with her full duty rig on she doesn't break 110lb.

I'd go with the Tomcat in .32 if she absolutely has to have a microgun. Because they're reliable. I don't much care for the NAA, it's heavier than it needs to be and the trigger pull is typically atrocious. Back in the 70s and 80s the Seecamp was awesome, these days........nah.

An LCR in .38 with wadcutters would be a light, small, controllable low recoil package and a .38 wadcutter (full wadcutter) is still a viable defensive round, more so than a .25. The LCR also has a very smooth, light trigger right out of the box. Better than any new S&W i've ever seen, and better than a few which have been worked over.

I've seen a couple guys killed with .22s and a few take hits from bigger rounds that didn't impress them, but I would not go below .380 or .38 Special without some real serious reasons.

Proper technique also helps racking slides for some women. Don't draw it back like a bow. Point the gun left (assuming a righty). Use whole left hand on top of slide. Push with right hand and push with left hand at the same time. Especially easier on bigger pistols, smaller guns just have less to hang on to.

The S&W Bodyguard .380 is small, light, has actual usable sights, and doesn't kick much. As does the new G42. Both would be viable defensive guns.

Same thing with hiding any of the above guns. I've seen a 5'1" female hide a 4" 1911 under a t-shirt. She was in excellent shape and knew guys weren't going to be looking at her waist. She wasn't dumb.....and she made the gun disappear.

I agree with you. I think unfortunately that even when young women aren't "turned off by guns" they don't necessarily become part of the "gun culture" until they've had a close-call. Then they want that double-stack 45 and will find a way to carry it 24/7 no matter what they're wearing (if I were female and wore 'skinny' clothes, I'd just have a fashionable 'fanny pack' at all times....a rather heavy one....). Anyway, hopefully we'll get her set up with something that will at least be there if needed, to get her through the first event.

There is the 'mindset' to carry whatever tool is needed regardless of fashion or convenience or stigma, and also the mindset to practice and get really really good with whatever the tool is, so hopefully the latter will prove helpful, as I do see evidence of that.

[alnitak]

I love the way the Kahr P380m shoots, and IMHO, it has better fit/function than the Kel-Tec, and less felt recoil than the Seecamp.32 and Kel-Tec .380. I believe they have a CM version out now as well for about $300.

[Old Ironsights]

...
I'd go with the Tomcat in .32 if she absolutely has to have a microgun. Because they're reliable. I don't much care for the NAA, it's heavier than it needs to be and the trigger pull is typically atrocious. Back in the 70s and 80s the Seecamp was awesome, these days........nah....

My NAA is my EDC and a regular shooter - and has been for years. I have NEVER had a FTF or FTE. The trigger is nowhere near as heavy as a DA revolver and as far as "atrocious", well, for a belly gun, as long as I can still clear a plate rack with it at 7-10 yds...(and consistently down Poppers at 25...) who cares? Plus, it gets better with age.

As for "heavier than need be? It's solid Stainless. I go swimming with it. Nothing rusts. Whats the issue?

[retmech]

Just shot a friends Glock .380 over the weekend. Night and day difference in recoil compared to my Keltec P3AT. Very comfortable to shoot, trigger way better than the KT but for me too big for pocket carry. I let him shoot my KT and he was really surprised at how "snappy" it was. If you're considering the Beretta TC I think you might like the Glock 42. I think size and weight might be very close and the .380 is way above a .25 in effectiveness.

[jeepnik]

My Glock 42 is a good handgun. But, it does take quite a bit more strength to cycle the slide. As mentioned, when I had my bout with carpal tunnel I couldn't work the slide on a semi auto, so the tip up was a great solution.

[JohndeFresno]

BELAY that Beretta .22 LR (Model 21A Bobcat, tip up barrel model) for somebody with less than strong wrists!

Somebody I know who was on an Armed Forces pistol team had great difficulty firing mine with consistency. I discovered that the problem was an inconsistent grip, discouraging the little gun from jacking in the next round. Not a gun to rely upon unless you have a strong, consistent grip to backdrop slide action. And that short barrel isn't going to give you stellar velocities with the diminutive .22; so you don't really have much going for you.

[MrMurphy]

The five NAA Guardians I've shot over the years all had trigger pulls that were better than an AMT, but not by much.

They were usable, at nostril inserting distance. None shot particularly well. This is a production span ranging over a decade, so it wasn't just one bad gun.

Never owned one. Weight-wise, an all stainless pocket gun is in fact too heavy in an age where most of them are now six ounce polymer guns. I've carried an all steel revolver in my front pocket and it made me look extremely happy to see everyone. This not being the 1980s, all steel and pocket gun are generally words that should not be in the same sentence.

I've also shot two original Seecamps, with the correct ammo, so I know what the Guardian "should" function like.

The Tomcat, while far from my favorite in that size, is usable, reliable, and while not polymer, is not excessively heavy for it's intended role.

A Kahr P380, assuming it proves reliable (some Kahrs don't...having owned one and sold about 50), the G42, or S&W Bodyguard would generally be my recommendations for a pocket automatic in .380 if for some reason you had to go below 9mm.

[Malamute]

Same thing with hiding any of the above guns. I've seen a 5'1" female hide a 4" 1911 under a t-shirt. She was in excellent shape and knew guys weren't going to be looking at her waist. She wasn't dumb.....and she made the gun disappear.

I know of a modest size lady that regularly carries two g-17's and makes them disappear in various clothes. She didnt like feeling unblanced with one, and ended up carrying two just to balance out. I think shes been doing it for over 10 years.

ETA: found the link.

http://frontsightpress.com/2014/08/20/t ... t-conceal/

[jeepnik]

BELAY that Beretta .22 LR (Model 21A Bobcat, tip up barrel model) for somebody with less than strong wrists!

Somebody I know who was on an Armed Forces pistol team had great difficulty firing mine with consistency. I discovered that the problem was an inconsistent grip, discouraging the little gun from jacking in the next round. Not a gun to rely upon unless you have a strong, consistent grip to backdrop slide action. And that short barrel isn't going to give you stellar velocities with the diminutive .22; so you don't really have much going for you.

Worked for me, and my grip was no great shakes at the time. Different folks have different results. Can't hurt to try.

[BAGTIC]

Buffalo Bore loads a .32 ACP +P that performs well. It uses the 75 grain FN made by Rim Rock. Handloaders can easily duplicate the ballistics. My wife used to carry a Witness Compact 9mm but it was a bit too large for her small hands. She now carries my Manurhin (Walther) PP and it performs well.

[tman]

Buffalo Bore loads a .32 ACP +P that performs well. It uses the 75 grain FN made by Rim Rock. Handloaders can easily duplicate the ballistics. My wife used to carry a Witness Compact 9mm but it was a bit too large for her small hands. She now carries my Manurhin (Walther) PP and it performs well.

The Keltec and BB ammo is the way to go, if you want small and light with a big bite.