Question: Win. Mod. 1886 (1894mfg) .40-82 old vs new parts

[5thCavalry]

Hello All,
I have a question about new-made-for-modern-and-clones vs. original-Winchester-made (IE, Antique) parts for one of my projects, a plain Win. M1886 Rifle in .40-82 (#795xx, left the factory 8-4-1894 per Cody).

Over the years I have casually picked up odd parts here and there (eBay, GB & other sources) and am finally getting close to completing this old boy. As a substitute for original parts I have been looking at some of the newer-made parts and wonder what will, or will not, work.

Specifically, I am looking at a "Cartridge Guide" and a whole "Loading Gate" (Spring Cover to some people) assembly (see: midwestgunworks.com). I've only owned one 1886 (this one) and know no one else who has one in my area to check out. Some of the prices folks have asked for the few originals that appear online are beyond my idea of a fair market price, so these modern parts interest me.

Originality is not part of the equation; functionality and fit is. I only plan on shooting this gun occasionally at a range. If you know, or believe, that either or both of these parts would work I would rather go that cost effective route.

A little history: I acquired this rifle from a woman (an Author) who lives in Idaho a some years back, her elderly cousin had passed and she took a long drive out to his old farm estate to check out what the vultures (relatives) hadn't picked. The rifle, or most of it, was in the barn. She brought it home, much to her husbands disgust, who told her to thrown that Piece of *** in the trash barrel. She ignored him (thankfully) and took a picture of it and entered it on the internet, I came across it and bought it for a few hundred. She said she was going to use the extra money to go visit the grand kids in Texas and bring them something, so the gun did its good deed before coming to me. It was missing all parts under the barrel (the magazine tube, forearm, etc) and several small internal parts, but the lever, breech bolt, and most major parts were all there, frozen in hard grease. The stock that was on it came off some other unknown rifle and was fitted to this one long ago, it also had a wrist crack repaired with a bolt and big ole' rusted square nut. There were splatters of old red paint on the gun here and there; the barrel was well worn and someone had tried to lead-solder the magazine ring to the enlarged (filed) dovetail, too far gone for a resurface and repair. It looked to be an honest old hard used and often repaired farm gun. Amazingly the metal (except for the barrel) was in excellent smooth condition. Over the years I bought a new-made octagon barrel in the same caliber with correct markings (sold the old barrel to buy more parts), an original stock, a magazine tube & associated parts and most of the internal parts. I'm getting close to the finish line now with regards to completing it; refinishing will be another story for another time.

Sitting near it are SEVERAL similar "Projects" that I add a part to here and there: Winchester M1873 (type 1,2,3 SRCs & Rifles) M1876 (type 2 Rifles) M1892; Marlin 1889 SRC & Rifles (the only Marlin model I seem to have acquired!!); a few Colt 1877 & 1878 revolvers and some odd name pieces. Several will be brought to life to possibly shoot a target now and then; others completed for the sake of completing. All are for my own enjoyment. I'm just an old amateur who enjoys old iron.

[yooper2]

While I cannot answer your question I'm sure there are those here who will. Sounds like a neat project and it has a great story attached. I for one would love to hear about the state of some of the other projects or some pictures of them. Just gotta love tinkering with guns.


Eric

[smokenrust]

5th Cavalry, You are lucky to have an 1886... I have heard stories from my father about his old 1886 in the 40-65 caliber. Said it could shoot and he could put down anything with it, just had to know how much to hold up on the long shots... But he traded it many years before I was born so hence, I only heard the stories... and have one picture of him in 1935 with his model A Ford, the deer head and cape resting on the ford and him holding his old gun. 26" octagon barrel. I have tried to find one in that caliber just to give to him back when I was younger so 'we' could enjoy the gun he regretted trading away. Alas, he died 15 years ago now and I still keep looking for something in that "affordable" range like others have said, but never have any luck at that. Getting down to the point whereI would look at any caliber 38-56, 40-65, 40-82, 45-70, 45-90... But they still want big bucks for sawed, rusted up junk. Just don't understand it. Oh well, maybe someday you will finally get all the parts for yours together and post a pic of your old 1886. Good Luck. SnR

[5thCavalry]

Hello again,
I found some time over the weekend to go through my cabinets and cases of my many projects to see exactly each needed. In my search through several small boxes and labeled bags I discovered I had at some point acquired the parts for 1886 Win that I first asked about, mixed in somehow in a box of 1873 parts! Over the years I have bought box lots of mixed parts, single pieces, etc., just to get the few pieces I needed, shelved them and ended up forgetting what was where. I moved 5 years ago and things that once sat in one location for years are now in another. Going forward I am going to catalog all pieces-parts in labeled bags, inside labeled boxes. If I never get to finish these items due to a Higher Calling my kids will have an easier time cleaning up after me. The 1st picture I will try to add will show 5 Winchesters, when I have a chance I'll lay out more and upload. I hope to have some of these, and those in coming pics, working later this spring/summer to get my Father In Law out one last time in the field poking some paper or water jugs against the hay rolls he set up for me last year in one of the back fields, he is terminal with Leukemia, in his late 80s, an old 4th generation (retired) dairy man.

Starting from the Top:
1. Winchester 1876 rifle, 45/75, octagon barrel. I first came across the receiver (only), it has a bad weld repair someone made long ago. Uneven, unfinished, not symmetrically correct. I bought it thinking I would practice TIG repair without causing a lot of damage to a decent item. After talking to the fellow explaining what I collect and my intentions he told me he bought it in a box as a project (my favorite words!) with most of the gun, we worked out a deal. He had most of the gun except for the wood, toggles, magazine tube. Years ago I had the fellows at Tapaderas (http://www.tapaderaswinchesters.com/) make a pair of new toggles for me, originals are uncommon to find for a 1876 and they are often worn when you do find them. I later acquired original wood and magazine tube. When extra coin is available (as is the case with all side projects) I can get the receiver fixed and assembled. I have a perfect donor receiver, but it letters to a 45/60, I'll either make a temporary build off of it for now; or -- have the original receiver repaired in 1 of 2 ways, both requiring TIG work (One way will require the use of the spare receiver). The original receiver serial number matches the records at the Cody museum, which reminds me, time to renew!.

2. Winchester 1876 rifle 45/60, round barrel. When I acquired this it was missing the rear sight, the forearm+hardware, the magazine tube and it's barrel mounts, and the barrel had been cut down several inches and the front sight moved back into a crude dovetail. I came across a new-made barrel in the correct caliber, length and rolled lettering (from the same place that made the 1886 barrel below, very part time side job, they occasionally sold a barrel on eBay years ago, haven't been around since maybe 2012 or 13 the latest), an original magazine tube and forearm with hardware. You will see the new barrel aside the short cut/still installed barrel. The original replacement sights aren't shown but tucked away and labeled this time. Whenever I get the old barrel off I can work on this a bit more. In the end the barrel will need to be aged to somewhat match the original finish, I hate to ruin an decent original finish and have the whole piece done over if it doesn't need it. The original serial number matches the records at the Cody museum

3. Winchester 1886 rifle, 40/82 octagon barrel. Minus 'maybe' a few screws and small pins for the magazine hangar and some other area I cant remember, it is almost ready to call whole - Site and barrel finish same planned as #2. Original Winchester 40/82 bullet mold next to it, I also have an original Win. hand held press reloader (not shown) to go with it. The original serial number matches the records at the Cody museum

4. Winchester 1873 rifle, 38/40, 3rd model. It was missing the dustcover (as is common), the magazine tube+parts, forearm+end cap and some internals to the receiver (toggles/pins), side plates and rear sight. I'll finish this off quicker than most guns, eventually replace that trimmed down Rocky Mountain blade sight with an original that still has the ramp design intact. The original serial number matches the records at the Cody museum

5. Winchester 1873 SRC, 44/40, 1st model. It was mostly intact when acquired, even the original era dust cover was there!! It was missing the toggles and side-plates, 1st model firing pin, front wood and magazine tube, forearm band and front barrel band with sight (it came with one original broken toggle, so I assume a past owner attempted top repair it and eventually abandoned it. The barrel is an old repro and is unmarked, great bore, just not marked. I think someone tried to resurrect it in the 1960s or 1970s when maybe someone like Numrich or Dixie may have offered barrels, but didn't get much further in the repair. I will eventually (a.) Have the correct lettering/address rolled on the existing barrel (b.) Some day locate a correct barrel that is nice on the outside. This one is odd gun, aside from the modern barrel. The lower tang has a late 1st model safety (and a safety finger lever to match) and never had a serial number applied (not filed, worn or tampered with, just left blank). It is a regular trigger. Early 1st models did not have a safety incorporated in the tang, late 1st models (before 31,000, when the 2nd model came out) did. I have read through Maddis documentation that often if an old 1873 came back to the factory for repair because a customer did not want the set trigger that was factory installed, Winchester replaced the tang with an un-numbered tang with a regular trigger and associated hardware (finger lever) ans shipped it back. That is the best I can assume. Over time I acquired some missing 1st model parts (side plates, toggles) and a forearm. The 1st model firing pin is not hard to locate, several companies do offer a 1st model FP for sale. The magazine tube would originally have had a threaded end piece at the barrel end. The front barrel band should also be the 1st type with integral iron sight. For me, it is the oldest lever action I currently own, so I will complete it's assembly for nostalgia and personal interest. Next to it is an original Win. .44 W.C.F. bullet mold and an original cartridge box for this rifle of the same caliber, sealed in plastic. Cartridge collecting is another side hobby of mine related to old firearms.

After I'm done rechecking each of these for parts I may already have I'll put them away and take a pic of another several. Mainly Win. 1873's, 1892's and Marlin 1889's (I only seem to come across the 1889 Marlin's for some reason, have 3 so far, 2 rifles and an SRC, lol...)


http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/4/5/1/3/ ... 4381_o.jpg

[Dusty Texian]

Hello 5thCavalry. I cannot be a help on your question about old and new 1886 parts. But wanted to say those are some very worthy projects you have going there. Bringing back old 73s and 76s has been one of my hobbies for many yrs. Hope you keep posting your progress. ,,,,DT

[5thCavalry]

While I'm sorting through things I may as well take a few pictures of the remaining items before putting everything away.

To keep the rifle picture somewhat clean I omitted the many small bags and small boxes of all the missing parts that fill all those empty voids you see such as missing finger levers, hammers, triggers, etc. The exception being any missing wood which I do not (yet) have. All are guns serial numbers match their configuration.

The last two images are some old side arm pieces I have worked on and are working on. Though not *Lever Guns* they may be of interest for a few folks to look at.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Marlin 1889, rifle, .32/20, 24" octagon barrel
2. Marlin 1889, rifle, .38/40, 24" octagon barrel
3. Marlin 1889, SRC, .38/40, 20" round barrel (that shiny black barrel band you see is from a new Win.94, it is just to hold the wood together on the barrel)
4. Marlin 1889, rifle, .32/20, 24" octagon barrel
5. Winchester 1892, rifle, .32/20, 24" octagon barrel, the shotgun butt stock, I believe, is from a later 1892/1894 rifle, it fits fine but there is a manufactured gap showing upper tang side edges that I believe should not exist on the early models. The build sheet from Cody museum did not indicate a shotgun style stock either, so probably a marriage from long ago.
6. Winchester 1892, rifle, .38/40, 24" round barrel
7. Winchester 1873, rifle, .32/20 with special order extra length 28" barrel/matching tang#
8. Winchester 1873, rifle, .38.40, 24" octagon barrel.

*********not shown:
9. Winchester 1873 3rd model, .25/20, 24" octagon barrel. Basically a receiver, a .25/20 Id'd tang and a barrel. I've set it aside because it is the only .25/20 I currently have, somewhat.
10. Winchester 1873 SRC, 2nd model with set trigger. A sad fellow, just a stripped frame, stripped set trigger lower tang and a bad barrel (bulge near end third of barrel). I've hung on to it only because it is the only 2nd model 1873 I have had and that it is a set trigger tang - It will be a challenge (read:costly) to
restore/rebuild unless someone is like me has squirreled away parts.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Photo1 - loose on table.

The 1858 Remington-Beals Army Revolver, .44 cap & ball. Though the patent dates say 1858 the gun wasn't actually produced until 1860 to about 1861, a
*Navy* version was also made in .36 caliber with a shorter barrel, by 1863 they were replaced/phased out by the New Model Remington Army & Navy
Revolvers, made until about 1875. Flayderman states about 1900 of this model were made, with 50% to 80% being bought by the U.S. government, those
should mainly have U.S. inspectors markings, this gun has none, believe me, I checked every millimeter with a loupe! When I acquired this the cylinder was
locked in place/wouldn't move, the hammer wouldn't cock and the hammer was broken, parts rattled inside. Once home I opening her up I found that the
trigger/cylinder stop spring was broken; the cylinder stop and the hand were also broken and wedged in place, the noise were pieces of spring. I located an
original hammer and bought a new spring and other broken internals, hand fitted them. She locks up tight with each hammer cock and makes no noise. I have
the original broken parts in the small bag to accompany this old gal if she ever changes hands. The holster is just a nice old period piece of leather, numbered
but no makers stamp, they go well together for display.

The small revolver below is a Third Model Josiah Ellis Double Action Pocket Model Revolver, 5-shot cylinder, .31 caliber, 3 3/4-inch octagonal barrel, leaf-style
engraving on frame; blued, with case-hardened hammer and lever. Varnished walnut grips. It is all there with perfect finish, it just needs some micro welding of
the loading lever and a section of the hammer, as well as the trigger spring replaced (that I will need to fabricate and spring-temper). There is a company in
Worcester, MA that does precision micro welding as a business AND has a gun shop by the name of Pullman Arms. The owner, Scott, is a nice person to talk to
as well if the need ever arises for his services. Flayderman's 9th Edition tells me there were only about 200 of the 3rd model manufactured, so I consider myself
lucky to have it, on a side note - All replacement parts will need to be fabricated for a gun like this, fortunately the small pieces that broke were inside when
opened. An image of this gun as it looks assembled can be seen at :
http://percussionrevolvers.com/index.ph ... 822#msg822

For the heck of it I included two other ancients. The Pepperbox is an old gold rush era sidearm and one of the first popular multi-shot handguns. This one was
made by E. Allen of Grafton, Mass. in 1837, the year he patented the revolving barrel design, in 1838 the company name changed to Allen & Thurber (Grafton),
then it moved to Norwich, CT. It is about .28 caliber or maybe .30 caliber. It is missing the trigger guard, someday I will duplicate one so that it will appear
complete while on display. The grips are either Ivory or Bone.

The plain-Jane beat up center hammer pistol (Muff Pistol, Boot Pistol, Coat Pistol) was one of the cheap varieties imported to the U.S. from countries such as Belgium,
England, etc. I believe this one was made in Belgium. Octagon stationary barrel, about a .44 or 45 caliber. The walnut grip is missing quite a bit of top wood. I figured
what have I got to loose, it isn't worth a lot if it were in NEW condition, so someday that slab of old 1.5" thick Walnut it is sitting on will produce a new bag-shaped
handle. I thought it might display OK in one of the display cabinets next to an old set of playing cards and some worn clay poker chips.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Photo 2 - in cases.

A Colt Model 1878 "Frontier", or "Double Action Army", a 6-shot DA in .45 Colt. (1881 vintage). It was missing several parts when acquired and the hammer
spur was trimmed off intentionally. Colt came out with an "improved" model in 1902 with a larger trigger guard and longer trigger and a stronger spring for the
.45 colt government cartridge to fire properly, issued it to the constabulary in the Philippines during the insurrection. Those models are mistakenly called the
*Alaskan* model due to the trigger guard size, people assuming it was to accommodate a gloved hand!

The other two revolvers are Colt Model 1877's, one with a shorter barrel is a .41 caliber (called the Thunderer) , the long barrel is a .38 caliber (the Lightning).
Both are in assorted states of completion.

Regards,
-John

[KirkD]

You got some great projects there. Each one that is fixed up and shooting again will give a feeling of real satisfaction.

[Ken41]

I have a Chaparrel 1876 45-75, that I disassembled, and tried the parts in a friends original 1876 receiver. We assembled the entire original 1876, with the Chaparrel parts, and everything fit with no problem, links, lever, trigger, and so forth. Even the thread pitch was correct for all of the screws. My friend bought a used Chaparrel 1876, used all of the parts, and built himself a nice 1876.

[5thCavalry]

Thanks Ken, that's good to know. I did order a few Model 1886 parts from places and they fit perfectly/work fine as you also mentioned. Given that some parts on eBay, Gunbroker, etc cost, lets say for example, ... $100.00 and the same part from one of 2-3 companies out there cost $23.50, as long as I'm not trying to restore a 1 of 100, 1 of 1000 or some rare exceptional piece that deserves only 100% original, the aftermarket part for the gun that shoots the occasional tray of 20 hand loads at the backstop are worth it.
-John