Marlin 454 Casull ?

[CowboyTutt]

Buck, I'm a friend of Mic's as well. At his worst, Mic is an opinionated old gun crank just like so many. At his best, he is a *******' genius. I have also found him to be very, very generous over the years, which seems to be defining trait of the Shootists that I have met.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion based upon your own experiences. But I really like him. And it is very nice to have your presence here as well.

While I know someone mentioned Ruger making a 454 Levergun, I honestly think that S&W has more state of the art facilities and resources at their disposal. Since they seem to be diversifying, perhaps some day they will build a levergun for their 460 or perhaps a short action for the 454. What do you think? Have you ever thought about approaching them about your prototype?

-Tutt

[1886]

[I said I am off this topic and so I am but please sir do not insult Mic. I doubt you know him for if you did your words would not be so unkind. Many around here and indeed the entire shooting industry hold him in high regard. Myself included. It is unbecoming a man of your great intellect and experience. Thanks for your kind consideration. Best Wishes, 1886.

I do apologize for causing this post to digress. I have been a key contributor.

FWIW, I have met Mic, and had the "pleasure" of working with/around him for a week or so, several years back. My statement reflects my observations of him then and since. He IS a man of vast knowledge (much of it even true) and experience, but also one of many and varied opinions -- some of which may or may not be... IOW, a lot like the rest of us...

Above all, I am entitled to hold and express my opinions, as much as anyone here.

Of course you are. So are others. Just do it politely and with all due respect to the man please. Folks will hold you in higher regard. Best Wishes, 1886.

[CowboyTutt]

It occured to me that not everyone may know who Buck Elliot is. Buck, please correct my facts if they are wrong, OK? Buck is the one who designed the ONLY levergun that can truly handle 454 Casull loads. He was formerly an engineer for Freedom Arms who later built two prototype rifles chambered in 454. Both of them are FA quality. They use an action that is about half-way between a '92 and a '86 in length. I have an aquaintance in Alaska who owns one of them. His name is Steve Hoffman Jr. and I "met" him on a 454 Casull forum years ago. A couple years back when Buck surfaced on Leverguns, I managed to connect both men as Buck did not know where his prototypes had ended up, and Steve new next to nothing about the history of the rifle. It was only because of my past experiences on both forums that I recognized what was being discussed and who was who. Buck, I totally acknowledge your accomplishments, but I also have to acknowledge Mic and what he has done professionally as well as for me personally. Now, about getting your rifle built again (which Mic would love to see by the way!).....

-Tutt

[1886]

Mr. Elliot sounds and is quite accomplished. I tip my hat to him and will pay special attention to his thoughts. I will obviously learn much from him. Others are quite accomplished as well and their thoughts need to be heard and heeded. Regards, 1886.

[Bones McCrackin]

Well, since I started this thread we've covered A L O T of ground... !!! ; )

Sounds like my next question should be;

Mr. Buck, tell me more about your "prototype" 454 lever guns, please. It sounds like what I am looking for. I of course realize I may not be able to afford a one-off custom, but I'd be a fool to not even ask!

Please tell me/us more. What are they like, how did they shoot/look, and how bad did they $hurt$ the 'ol pocket book (if I may be so bold to ask).

thank you in advance,
Bones.

[slimster]

Is aoc power leveling and age of power leveling the same meann??

???????? This is a levergun forum. I am sure there are many other forums that would be better for posts such as this. Thank you.

[Buck Elliott]

"He was formerly an engineer for Freedom Arms .."

Not quite... Although I have an engineering certificate, I was setup & lead man in the conventional machine shop at FA. They didn't feel the need for any "engineer" types at FA back then. I'll leave it at that...

[GANJIRO]

Wild West Guns used to have their propriety model 04 listed and heard there was a long waiting list but it has disappeared from their website and not sure if anyone ever received delivery of it. It had a hammer safety ala BLR, and the action looked to be a combination of round Marlin 336 bolt, with reinforced receiver ala 94BB, and twin locking bars ala model 92 strength wise looked very promising. I wonder what happened to this promising design.



Wild West Guns - Model 04
500 S&W lever action rifle

17-4 PH Stainless Heavy Duty
CNC Machined Receiver
Fast Action Hammer Safety
Take-down or standard rifle
16 1/2 or 18 1/2 inch barrel
Walnut or Synthetic Pistol Grip Stock
WWG Big Loop Lever
WWG Bear Proof Ejector
WWG Aluminum Magazine Follower
Safety Vented Magazine Tube
WWG Ghost Ring Sight System
WWG Trigger System
Action Tuned for Reliability
Pachmayr Decelerator Pad
Optional Recoil Control Porting

Other Calibers Available:
.500 Linebaugh, .475 Linebaugh, .480 Ruger, .454 Casull

[stevejr454]

Looks like we finally have have a reliable production 454 Casull. To bad it has 460 Smith and Wesson on the side of it. But it's all good, it's still built in Wyoming. Big horn arms model 90 in 460 S&W,will also shoot 454 Casull and 45LC. The only problem is the cost, starts at almost 2700.00 and goes up from there. Check them out.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/

[AJMD429]

Looks like we finally have have a reliable production 454 Casull. To bad it has 460 Smith and Wesson on the side of it. But it's all good, it's still built in Wyoming. Big horn arms model 90 in 460 S&W,will also shoot 454 Casull and 45LC. The only problem is the cost, starts at almost 2700.00 and goes up from there. Check them out.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/

Have one in 500 S&W and it is awesome in terms of quality. Had to sell and trade bunches of stuff to afford it though.

[Panzercat]

I know somebody will jump in here to defend it, but this thread is making me glad I offloaded my Rossi 454 to somebody who wants a project. I'm not in the market for disposible guns or ones that really can't handle the full range of pressure a 454 can produce.

[harry]

Looks like we finally have have a reliable production 454 Casull. To bad it has 460 Smith and Wesson on the side of it. But it's all good, it's still built in Wyoming. Big horn arms model 90 in 460 S&W,will also shoot 454 Casull and 45LC. The only problem is the cost, starts at almost 2700.00 and goes up from there. Check them out.

http://www.bighornarmory.com/

Doubt you will ever get 45LC to work and have great difficulty with the 454, check the OAL of the 460, you would get 1 1/2 45's on the lifter before you would hit the cartridge stop. Doc don't you have a picture of the 3 cartridges on one of the other threads?

[AJMD429]

I know somebody will jump in here to defend it, but this thread is making me glad I offloaded my Rossi 454 to somebody who wants a project. I'm not in the market for disposible guns or ones that really can't handle the full range of pressure a 454 can produce.

Well, I have a bunch of leverguns, though none in the 'pristine collectable or historic' class...mine are all either family heirlooms of minimal actual 'value', or 'shooters'.

My favorite 'short actions' remain my 32-20's, and my various (Marlin, Rossi, Ruger) 44 Magnums, even though I know that a 45 Colt is ballistically better. My favorite 'long actions' would be my 35 Remington ('cuz it's different than a regular old 30-30), and 444 Marlin ('cuz it's a 'big bore' that isn't a regular old 45-70).

Still, I do have a couple other 'powerhouse' leverguns in addition to the 444 Marlin and 45-70.

One is a couple 454 Casull Rossi's and other than one of them simply having an oversized chamber, which the manufacturer promptly repaired with a new barrel, they have functioned flawlessly, and shown no signs of being 'borderline' for the factory-loads I've fired in them. I would expect they might be somewhat like a Smith & Wesson Model 29, versus a Ruger Redhawk - fed a diet of exclusively hot-rodded loads, and after a few thousand rounds, yes I'd expect a problem or two, but I don't do that kind of shooting. The 454 Casull in a 16" Rossi is a NICE little package - you know you're shooting a real gun, but it is easily handled in an accurate manner. It would probably be my 'go-to' rifle if I lived in bear country, due to relatively short lever-throw, slick action, and 8 round capacity even with the 'trapper' length barrel.

The other is a 500 S&W Spike Driver from Big Horn Armory, and I only got it because I needed a 'luxury gun' to get me through a bad year. I had to sell and trade a bit to afford it, and it isn't something I could call a 'practical' gun in the sense that the same power level could be had for a fourth the cost by simply buying an AR-15 upper in 50 Beowulf, and with greater magazine capacity. However, I always wanted an '86' style levergun, and a modern reproduction or good-condition vintage one is not cheap either, plus I wanted the 50 caliber option. If the 454 Casull Rossi is 'stretching' things at all when it comes to full-house loads, I sure don't think the 500 S&W Spike Driver is that way at all. It appears engineered to handle the pressures and cartridge dimensions with room for comfort (and is a pleasure to shoot). It is now, and probably always will be, the most expensive gun I've ever owned, but - it was a TREAT, and just a silly and unnecessary luxury I realize I didn't need - but living in Indiana, I didn't "need" a 30-30, or 35 Remington, or 444 Marlin, or 45-70 - there is nothing I've ever needed to shoot that a 44 Mag levergun didn't handle perfectly. IF I need to shoot longer range I have a bolt action 223 and 308, etc. So - the Spike Driver may be 'unnecessary', and although I find the beautiful wood stock and machining of the action to be worth a lot, I know a 444 Marlin or 45-70 could do the same 'job' if needed. But I suffer from gun-collector-itis, and it was just something I wanted... Still, it is certainly not in the 'disposable' class or marginal in strength - and I really don't think that's true of the Rossi 454 Casull, either, any moreso than you could say the same about a S&W Model 29.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I know somebody will jump in here to defend it, but this thread is making me glad I offloaded my Rossi 454 to somebody who wants a project. I'm not in the market for disposible guns or ones that really can't handle the full range of pressure a 454 can produce.

Again, early on (early 2000's) the 454 Rossi's had some problems. But, the current guns are doing just fine.

It's not unusual for newly developed guns to have some issues. I don't know of a single manufacturer that hasn't had to recall a new design at least once.

[Streetstar]

I am a little more boring than you guys ---- instead of trying to use hot rod cartridges in leverguns, -- i just go bigger and lower pressure

The 45/70 for me has been the cat's pajamas --- i know magazine capacity is less than a shorter, higher pressure number would be , - but with 450 Marlin level loads, i can handle about anything that needs to be handled (so long as it is not more 2-250 yards away )

I make analogy's frequently and this is another one --- reminds me a bit of car guys --- I'll use the Corvette as an example --- If i were to purchase one, i would probably just leave it bone stock and tool around with the wind in my hair and a classy lady on my arm . I have a buddy, OTOH, who is always tinkering -- computer chips, rearend ratios, aftermarket superchargers, the list goes on and on

It is amazing to me the longevity the 45/70 has had in its run ---- of course if someone were to offer me a honey of a deal on a Bighorn in either caliber , i wouldnt kick it out of bed though

[Griff]

What a blast from the past this thread has been! Fireworks and all!

[Old Savage]

Corvette .... OK, but it us no Jeep.

[Les Staley]

Just found out BigHorn Armory is making the 90 in 454 Casull...been talking with the nice lady there...got some funds burning a hole in my pocket...........hmmmm...

[AJMD429]

Here's a bit I posted on the Spike Driver I got earlier this year. Hoped to use it for deer season, but didn't get a single day afield during gun season for various reasons. Hopefully next year.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=59895

Anyway, thread has some pictures of a "Real" Big Horn Armory gun, not just a website specially-picked one. GunBlast has some reviews too...

The Carbine (article and links to video) - http://gunblast.com/Bighorn89.htm
The Rifle (video) - http://www.gunblast.com/BigHorn-SpikeDriver.htm

[Les Staley]

Doc, which grade of walnut did you order? Your rifle looks great. Les

[Streetstar]

Corvette .... OK, but it us no Jeep.

Same thing applies to Jeeps I have a stock Wrangler and find it to be a really neat and capable little runabout i can take far into the backwoods ( plus take the top off and cruise around with a classy lady -- albeit one in a camouflage bikini ).

Other guys do their dead level best to turn similar vehicles into rock crawlers, desert pre runners, and jacked up shopping mall cruisers. ---- meanwhile, the stock Jeep is still pretty darn good and ultimately more versatile than a highly modified bro- mobile

[AJMD429]

Doc, which grade of walnut did you order? Your rifle looks great. Les

Just 'regular' I think. At the time I think the only options were walnut and maple and 'laminate'. I recall no grade selection.