Hunting question

[mikld]

OK, I have a question about hunting ethics that I've thought about for a while. I figgered I'd ask here as the membership seems quite broad in their interests, areas, economic status, and abilities. I am not a hunter, but by no means am I a "Bambi lovin' anti-hunter" (not much hunting nor many hunters in the Los Angeles ghetto where I grew up). I believe in hunting, for several reasons, but I ask here anonymously, for genuine non-emotional answers.

I have read over the course of many years about the "quick humane kill" that most hunters seek. There is much discussion on bullet performance, bullet placement and "reasonable" shooting distances. Most firearms hunters are looking for that DRT shot, and many achieve them (or at least they brag about them ). Quick "clean" kills where one or at the most two shots and the game is dead. Over quickly (?).

But, I am seeing a great increase in archery hunting. In my mind, I cannot see any "quick humane kills" in archery hunting. I have read a bit about it and the chance of a quick DRT shot seems unlikely. The super sharp broad heads slice right through the animal and the hunter follows the wounded animal to wait for it to lay down and bleed to death (I don't want to sound like a PETA member, I just don't know how else to describe hunting with a bow and arrow). Not so quick, not so "humane", longer "wound to death time".

So, I'm open for educating on the positive and negative aspects of archery hunting. Can it truly be a "quick and humane" method of harvesting game?

[Blaine]

A bad hit with a broadhead can be as slow and painful as a bad hit with any bullet. The bow shots I've made, the large doe whitetails went maybe 50 yards, and were dead when I got to them. What I consider unethical is archers that will not practice, or take a shot too long for their ability to make a killing shot.

[cshold]

Bows are very capable of DRT.
It's 'all' about shot placement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oAWI12tTz0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8UxKwIL_dk

[cshold]

DRT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhdISuPBxg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quRcNu1oiUo

[cas]

Many are of the opinion that being shot with a razor sharp arrow is a lot less painful than being shot with a bullet and more "humane".

[Pete44ru]

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IMO, regardless of method, it behooves a hunter to become as accurate as possible with whatever - aka: practice, practice, and more practice.

An accomplished archer should become accurate enough to need to shoot each practice arrow at a different POA/bullseye, lest the launched arrow destroy the one previously shot. (my Son has to, at any sane range - myself, less so)

Regardless of method (again), a hunter should not shoot at ranges beyond their ability to do so.

Following Clint's advice ("A man has to come to terms with his limitations"), I limit my archery hunting shots to no more than 30yds, my rifle hunting shots to 200yds, and my handgun hunting shots to 100yds - YMMV.

Although DRT has it's advantages, I've found a game animal's meat is much less tainted by adrenaline (gamey), if it dies in a relatively relaxed state - which sometimes, due to circumstances, is unachieveable.

The further an animal runs after a telling shot, the more adrenaline enters it's muscles.

The issue of humanity/inhumanity is a philosophy many leave to others - generally, humans tend to be more humane to beings they're acquainted or related with, than to a being in which they're not so invested (IMO).

Some humans are more/less kind/cruel to other beings than other humans are - I guess that's what makes us human.

.

[Malamute]

Theres a wide variety of what may be termed sensibilities or sensitivity to killing things. It doesn't bother some people in the least, nor if a critter suffers in the process, and on the opposite extreme, some don't want anything killed for any reason and get freaked out just thinking about it.

I hunt and kill stuff that needs killing. Rattlesnakes, skunks, mice and packrats get little sympathy from me. Other things, I don't especially enjoy killing, don't kill things unless I feel theres a good reason (I have nothing personal against coyotes for example), and don't like to cause suffering if I kill something. I tend towards a little more gun, like a scoped 30-06, partly for that reason, and it simply gives me more range and options when out making meat, and seems like a decisively faster killer than a 30-30 from what I've used of both. I want DRT or close to it whenever possible. I'm not in charge of anyone elses life though, I have my hands full with my own. That's my take on it.

[Blaine]

The Disney-ists are usually surprised to learn that prey is often eaten while the're still alive.....That's nature for you.

[harry]

Unless you shoot'em in the brain there is no DRT, they may FORT(fall over right there)but they are not dead. Even a spine shot, it just paralyses them until they bleed to death or die of shock. But as Blaine said, its better than being eaten while you are still alive.

[mikld]

Keep 'em coming fellers. I haven't gotten into hunting (other than jack rabbits around the sheep farms in So. CA.when I was in high school), mainly because my father didn't "have time" to hunt, I had no uncles nor neighbors that hunted, and knew no hunters. I've always liked guns and shooting but as an adult I was too busy making a living and drinking to take the time and money to go/learn to hunt...

I understand why hunters hunt (and I kinda would like to find someone to "teach" me the ways), and have no second thoughts as to the reasons, or needs to hunt. BTW, one of the reasons this came up, is a lady at my Church drew an Elk Tag. When talking about it she mentioned one occasion when she "had to" dress out a black bear that was shot in her driveway...

[Griff]

"Hunting" is a multi-faceted topic... and a multi-faceted activity. I had a friend that's vocally "anti-hunting", yet he went on a photo safari to South Africa. When I pointed out that essentially, he was hunting... he quit talking to me. Oh, well... a "friend" that shallow, wasn't. Hunting has nothing to do with killing.

In the military, I, for a time, was a member of a unit that was sent on "missions". They were essentially "hunts" for the enemy. And, like the above example, may or may not have been for the purposes of "killing". Some refer to them as "scouts"... but, at their core, they were hunts.

While I don't feel any particular animosity toward coyotes or feral dogs... when I encounter one, I kill it. Not so much for what it "has done"... but for what they're capable of doing. While my horse is not part of my livelihood, it is my property... and having wild animals chase it for either sport or for their dinner, is not in my plans for my horse, or even in the horse's best interests. And, since that is the nature of a coyote or feral dog, I have no other options for removing them from the playing field. Nor does doing so provide any pleasure, beyond having fulfilled my duties as protector.

But... just as with game animals that I've hunted for meat... it speaks to my skill set and humane-ness (if that's a word), if I can dispatch them with one shot. I harbor no misbelief that animals feel no pain... therefor, it is my DUTY to minimize that if at all possible when I take a shot. It may not be someone else's... regardless of my belief set... but their disregard for my set of ethics neither absolves me from nor lessens my duty to adhere to mine.

[jkbrea]

Like others said, it's all about shot placement. I don't bowhunt.....may try this year , but I have seen some incredible bow shots. The broadheads nowadays seemed to be designed much better than years back.
A bad shot is a bad shot, whether with a bow, rifle, sling shot, etc. I've made a couple bad shots on elk that have haunted me for some time.

Here's a link to a video showing how much immediate blood loss an arrow causes instantly. The deer didn't last long. Don't know what kind of arrow was used. I have no idea if mechanical broadheads are better or not. Maybe a bowhunter can chime in.
WARNING: graphic
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7oAWI12tTz0

[gcs]

While the goal is a quick kill, (I won't use the term "humane") , and most hunters do their best, things can, and do, go awry . Stuff happens and you deal with it as you can. That is the nature of hunting, anyone that tells you they make every shot, and never lose an animal, is either a Saint...or a liar.
I hunt deer for the meat, I don't look for a "trophy", I will kill any coyote, chicken stealing coon, or anything that "needs" killing, and I'll do my best to be as efficient and quick about it as I can. Same with killing domestic stock, get it done with as little trauma as possible.
I'm on the fence with archery hunting. While it can be quick, I've known too many people who won't wait for the "right" shot, won't practice enough, and shoot out of their limitations. Most archers I know think they are endowed with supernatural powers and have an elitest attitude, (sort of like dry fly fisherman) but they have the same failings all humans have.
Killing is what it is, it ain't pretty, you do your best and hope the knuckle draggers see the light.

[Blaine]

There have been a few exposés about slaughterhouses where it's clear that animals are being skinned while they are still kicking....Unless a person is a vegan, IMO it is hypocrisy to condemn hunting while buying your meat all wrapped up neat and clean

[Streetstar]

While the goal is a quick kill, (I won't use the term "humane") , and most hunters do their best, things can, and do, go awry . Stuff happens and you deal with it as you can. That is the nature of hunting, anyone that tells you they make every shot, and never lose an animal, is either a Saint...or a liar.
I hunt deer for the meat, I don't look for a "trophy", I will kill any coyote, chicken stealing coon, or anything that "needs" killing, and I'll do my best to be as efficient and quick about it as I can. Same with killing domestic stock, get it done with as little trauma as possible.
I'm on the fence with archery hunting. While it can be quick, I've known too many people who won't wait for the "right" shot, won't practice enough, and shoot out of their limitations. Most archers I know think they are endowed with supernatural powers and have an elitest attitude, (sort of like dry fly fisherman) but they have the same failings all humans have.
Killing is what it is, it ain't pretty, you do your best and hope the knuckle draggers see the light.

This roughly mimics my thoughts and experiences


Mikld, what you brought up is the reason i dont do much hunting anymore --- I'll never condemn anyone for hunting though , unless they do it in an unethical fashion, ---- but i have become what some may call "soft" ----

I started hunting by bowhunting --- but the mechanics of bowhunting that you described well enough are what caused me to steer away from it and ultimately hunting altogether . Make your shot , the frightened deer runs - then lays down trying to catch its breath as the world slowly fades to black. We wait in our stand 30 minutes or so to make sure this process is complete

Bad things happen in rifle season too though, make no mistake

I recall a landowner having to put down a buck because an overzealous hunter took a shot that was far too long for his abilities with a 7mm Remington and blew the deers forefoot off ---- he was limping around for a week on 3 legs because of this numbskull - and at that point i felt a profound sadness for the animal, and rage at my fellow hunter at the same time

A couple days later, my brother lost a small buck that we tracked for hours in the dark until it started to snow in earnest , and then my sadness got a bit worse at not having retrieved the animal and i prayed he died quick, , and driving home from the lease, i decided i was done for a while -
-- granted , i had already filled all the tags i needed to fill that season, and had a spectacular day afield a few days previously

I encourage new shooters and young people to try it out for themselves though, lest this country's young people completely "loses their balls" - and i offer advice when i can , plus target shooting with my bow is relaxing

If somebody comes along with a dream buffalo hunt for me , or a couple of plane tickets to Africa, --- i'll likely go - these are things i've wanted to do since i was young , but the last couple of years i havent wanted to participate

[Streetstar]

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[plowboy 45]

I would think if you kill an animal for food, and not killing it just to see death, or unusual cruelty just for kicks, none of this means nothin anyway,
I was raised not to be cruel to any living thing humans animals or nothin
But kill that deer, squirrel, rabbit, quail, or whatever game animal for supper
The lord put us over dumb brutes, to use in our daily lives, whether to eat them or work them.
Predators I kill them to
But being down right mean and cruel isa sin
I don't think that's any hunters plan tho

[Grizz]

forget who said it, but DRT is a CNS shot, and I've preferred them as my first choice. but I only hunt for food for family and friends, and out of a couple hundred deer I lost one. Almost all the rest died in my sight, and with the cns shots the animal was dead before it hit the ground. personally, if I have to take another shot I blew the first one.

I think heart shots must be painful, can't guess how long before an animal loses consciousness, blowing up a heart with a bullet or broadhead has about the same physiology, as soon as the brain is starved for oxygen the animal is unconscious. it's the heartshot animals that seem to run.

otoh, I believe herd animals are here for our provision, and the arrow, spear, or knife is a valid way to harvest meat, imo.

Grizz

[Pete44ru]

Hunting has nothing to do with killing.

Amen.

I can't count the times I've "gone hunting" and returned w/o any game - but just as satisfied as when I have.


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[piller]

mikld, if you are interested, then you should contact 86er and go on one of the hunts he organizes. There are a wide variety of personalities on his hunts, and you would probably fit right in. You would make new friends. The groups on the hunts that I went on were composed of some very fine people, and the purpose of the hunt was more of a social gathering than to make meat, but the animals were taken, and, in most cases, taken cleanly and with little fuss. On one occasion, an animal was shot several times by one of the hunters, and he was very upset and saddened at having to shoot it more than once. If you want a little more information, then pm me since I do not want to make anyone go through a bad hunt again, even if it is on the forum. Go on one of the hunts that 86er organizes and you will have many of your questions answered.

[.45colt]

We here are sportsman...as a group We want the "perfect" shot to humanely harvest a game animal. nothing is a satisfying for a Sportsman...it doesn't always happen, not with big game, small game, rifle, bow , or shotgun. it can and does at times get ugly, all part of life.
After 42 years of working as Meat cutter / Butcher Workman in large retail stores, I can tell anyone that the only true meat hunters I know of never get their hands bloody, buy a gun, bow or spend a day in the outdoors.... they never make a bad shot .... they only need to stalk the newspaper ads and rush to get the "big deal" and stock up. they just fill the freezer. and so it goes.

[ceb]

To answer the original question, yes I believe bowhunting to be very humane and effective. This is based on better than 40yrs of experience in the sport. Do you have to do your part, yes. But a razor sharp broadhead placed in vital organs is extremly effective. Do they drop on the spot, no not usually, but a double lunged deer will usually drop within 100 or so yards. How long does it take a deer to travel 100yds? It is over in a matter of seconds. Also pain is caused by the damage of nerve endings, a bullet damages a lot of tissue and therefore nerve endings, a sharp broadhead much less, therefore less pain. There is also not the loud report of a gunshot. Bows have been harvesting game for many thousands of years, and it has been done quickly and humanely.